Smuggler Archive

I see plenty of good explainations on both sides on this topic, But me personally dont agree with any sort of experimentationon anythingwe smugglers do.

I've mastered a ton of crafting proffessions (weaponsmith, armorsmith,architect). I was more occupied searching or spending lots of cash for resourses.

As a Master Smuggler /Master pistoleer, I am able to roam the galaxy exploring and hunting, not wasting my time hunting for boring resources. I can use anything to make my products and always make money.

To me Smuggler is a hustler, I make money out of anything i find and that is great!!. I lay out a few harvesters for what i need with no worries on the quality. If i wanted to dealwith more complex crafting i would of remained in any of the elite crafting professions.

Smuggler is a great proffesion for those of us who have a life outside of swg and enjoy a proffession that grants us the oppertunity to actually play the game and not be worried about spending our recreational time on swg running around searching for resources.

Who really benefits from experimentation and quality resources? Most certainly wont be the smuggler on the long run...it will all lead to less toslice = less money.

Atleast this way we all have a fair chance, only the weak will fall.....

Bknugga

Master Smuggler/Master pistoleer

Whylook for a headache when ur fine?

I

Solo,

Thanks for the well thought reply to my post. Here's some responses from me.

" Number 1, I'm no dabbler. I am working to become a Master Smuggler and a Master Weaponsmith both. My goal is to run guns that I make and slice for the Rebellion. That's been my intention all along. That I'm not AT that level yet does not somehow invalidate my opinions nor does it make me a dabbler. (apologies if you weren't referring to me)"

Was not refering to you specifically, but pointing out that experimentation will mostlybenefit the level 4 slicer. Im a master. I already get the best possible slices. Why change that?

"Number 2, experimentation alone will not harm masters nor will it favor dabblers. Experimentation will BENEFIT masters if it's done the way weaponsmiths have to deal with it, because masters will be able to experiment MORE than novices. Personally I think that sucks. However, even if experimentation is left at 10 points for everyone starting at novice, you can easily set the system up where, no matter how good your resources are, a Slicer will never be able to outslice a Master, unless the master is lazy and uses freakin' lead to make his knives. And that's if we're using a modified version of the existing system where knives alone control the outcome. Unless you have experimentation set up such that the experimented tools alone control the outcome of your slice (rather than your base ability as determined by your level PLUS some calculation based on your tool quality), dabblers will not be able to beat masters. Again, unless the master sits on his ass and does nothing to improve his lot in life."

Here we begin to see where we really disagree. What you consider laziness, I consider the freedom of the smuggler lifestyle. In my vision of smuggler, I can hack into systems with whatever tools are at hand. It is my PERSONAL SKILL that counts, not my fancy uber tools. If you disagree that's ok, but I feel that my vision of smuggler is more true to the SWG universe.

Number 3, experimenting should NEVER come into play with clamps or FANs. They are strictly binary tools. The outcomes that they offer are "Red/Blue" and that's it. Plus, their descriptions pretty much tell you their effectiveness. Clamps are supposed to guarantee that you successfully slice the item. That should NEVER change and I don't think ANYONE here was suggesting that.

OK, but why would a knife make any difference? Ive already opened the thing pried its delicate wires apart. Heck, a stone knive should be able to cut that red or blue wire just fine. I could even use my teeth!

Number 4, confusing customers happens all the time. All it takes is some jackass telling peope he can guarantee a 40% speed slice and someone out there will believe him.

I notice you aren't disagreeing with me here. But do you want to add to the confusion?

Number 5, smuggler is nothing like, nor would it EVER be like weaponsmith. Weaponsmithing is a **edit** and a half. You have TONS of specific named resources to keep track of, they spawn VERY rarely so you're often playing either commodities broker or wandering prospector, etc. It's like having a second job (if indeed one has a first job). I'm guessing based on your posts that you haven't done much crafting outside of the smuggling tree. That's cool, not everyone does. But believe me, it is NOT hard to come by good quality OQ/CD copper. Sure, you jump in it when you see double 900s values, but even so, copper is mostly high quality. The probelm that weaponsmiths face is that they have to find specific TYPES of copper (IE: Mythra copper) for specific items. As long as the schematics we'd be making (and if we're working off of knives only here, the schematic is VERY forgiving) only require "copper" and not a particular type of copper, or even just require "metal" and not even ferrous vs. non-ferrous metal, we'll be in fat city. I can walk out of my house on Talus and trip over a good quality copper spawn. You can go to ANY planet and find high quality copper. Believe me, it's not hard at all. Yes, we're not pure crafters, but trust me, this would be crafting-lite in the extreme.

Remember, I was a master weaponsmith too. I hated it. If you enjoy the challenge that's great! We need dedicated MWSs. But please don't impose those challenges on my favorite profession. Oh, and Crafting-Lite is what we have right now, not what you are proposing.

Prices would not go up either, and if the prices for copper did, so what? We build it into the slice. As long as the slice is seen by the market as worthwhile, they'll pay for it. Besides, we're already making a crapload of profit as it is. What, now you want to be PAID the way weaponsmiths are?

Actually, a smart smuggler CAN make the money a MWS does. Buy from them, slice and resell for lots more. Oh, and "so what?"... that doesnt sound like a smuggler to me heck, I'm a penny pinching maniac.

If you haven't played weaponsmith, you have no IDEA what kind of hell it is. It is a **edit** and a half, as I said. Depending on how you do it, you spend TONS of time working on just gathering the **edit** resources. Your overhead is pretty high (which is why weapons are so expensive), and you have to deal with plenty of broken schematics, screwed up experimentation values, etc., etc., etc.

Tying tool quality (and thus OQ/CD for resources) to slice outcome is hardly the same thing. We'd be NOTHING like weaponsmiths. Trust me.

Again, i WAS a Master Weaponsmith. (and a Master Artisan). My vision of the smuggler profession does not include **edit** experimentation or calculating OQ/CD AT ALL. Again, we may disagree here, but I feel that what a smuggler does is based on SKILL LEVEL ONLY, not on tools.

Now, I will say this. I think that slicing is good as it is. The main issue that I have is the randomness of it, but I've learned to deal with that and to educate my customers. I'd love to find a way to make it more predictable, but there's a certain liberation that comes from being able to shrug your shoulders at a customer and say "Sorry man. It's random, like I said." I support maintaining the randomness of slicing.

I do not see how adding experimentation will eliminate the randomness of slicing. If it did, It would be a bad thing, because my 98% knives would be worthless if 99% knives existed anywhere else on my server. And if randomness would still exist, then I dont know what experimentation would do other than complicate matters and reward level 4 slicing Master Weaponsmiths.

However, I think that, come the crackdown, we're going to need to make slicing more appealing to players. It has to be worthwhile for them to take the risk, and the potential for a 12% slice on my uber 1337 krayt whatever is not going to do it. I'll buy powerups where I KNOW what I'm getting AND it's not illegal.

A 35% sliced T21 will always be worth the risk! Once you start getting those results you wont worry about the crackdown. LOL. By the way, I havent gotten a 12% since I hit master.

That's why I think that the system I proposed, while more resource intensive (potentially, anyway) than what we have now, would cover all our bases. Tool quality would count so hard work would as well. Quality tools would help you boost your range to make slicing more appealing to other players. Masters would still maintain dominance, but not to the point where no one would ever be useful at slice 2, 3, or 4. And a lazy-ass master who figured "Ah screw it. I'll just use iron this time" would get what he deserves: a crappy slice, where at the same time the diligent slicer or diligent master would outstrip him.

You want hard work? Try getting MASTER SMUGGLER! Again, i should be able to improvise an excellent slice with the materials at hand, not search the whole galaxy for some frikken metal to make a lousy knife!

I don't believe that minor tweaks to the existing system will do it, really. I think it'll be pointless, in the end, and people won't be satisfied anyway. A major revamp would work, but that will obviously take time. Regardless, I think that it's possible to redesign slicing to the point where experimentation helps EVERYONE, where those who put in MINIMAL effort will get maximal results (and as I said, assuming all tools work the same way as our current ones, it WOULD be minimal effort), and where slicing becomes an attractive service in a post-crackdown galaxy.

OK. my last thought is that there is plently of experimentation in the Master Weaponsmith and Master Armorsmith professions. I feel they should stay there, and leave slicing as a skill-based result. Master smugglers should always get better slices (on average) than anyone else. Don't take that away from me.

But I do agree with people that our current system, even if tweaked, just wouldn't do it, really. We need a full overhaul or we should just leave it the hell alone.

adding experimentation does not equal a removal of the randomness.

Doc have to experiement on their buffs, i would expect if slicing had experiementation we would get the same.

As long as there is no chance of failure, randomness will be part of the process. it's what makes it a game.

Docs cannot fail to buff you, you cannot fail to slice a weapon (presuming clamps) so randomness is part of the action.

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Roadego wrote:
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Weaponsmiths have non weaponsmith made components in their products but the quality of those don't affect their weapons. I know droids have artisan made components.......anyone know if the quality of non-de components matter?

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I tested this, my MA friend gave me some non-experiemented really crappy ones. And some 95% ones.

I made Tangle Pistols, they used 5Control Units most of any weapon. useing the same materials and noting the percentages experimented each time.

there was no difference in the two sets of guns.

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rexan wrote:

There are a lot of good points brought up on both sides. I guess I would like to see experimentation because I want my slicing results to be consistantly be in the 25-35 range (or 30-35). I would plan to do far less slicing, and charge much more for this service.

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/bump to help keep the debate out of the poll thread

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Kav wrote:

Doc have to experiement on their buffs, i would expect if slicing had experiementation we would get the same.

As long as there is no chance of failure, randomness will be part of the process. it's what makes it a game.

Docs cannot fail to buff you, you cannot fail to slice a weapon (presuming clamps) so randomness is part of the action.

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I don’t expect the randomness to be removed. However, if they do implement experimentation, I expect the random results to be shifted higher.

If you were to make a buff pack-D, and not experiment on it, I imagine your buffs would be in the 500-1000 range. However, when a master Doctor applies his experimentation points is when you see buffs form the 1500-2000 range.

And from the slicing description, I agree that it is the WUK and AUK that should influence the results. So what would people think if we got these kinds of results.

• 10-25% effective tools - Master smuggler slices in the 10-20% range


• 26-50% effective tools - Master smuggler slices in the 15-25% range


• 51-75% effective tools - Master smuggler slices in the 20-30% range


• 76-100% effective tools - Master smuggler slices in the 25-35% range

Does anyone think that paying 2x more for your WUKs and AUKs to get the 76%+ tools will be a disadvantage?

note: this is only how I would guess slicing experimentation and tool effectiveness would work. WUK and AUK only use 2 resources (metal and chem). And I believe only OQ matters. Also, novice WS and AS make these. And these items use the experimentation points from Artisan. This would actually give the non-Master weapons smiths and armor smiths something that they can make as well as a MWS and MAS. (assuming they have at least 4/4/0/0 artisan).

I see this as being a good think for more people than just smugglers.

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rexan wrote:

• 10-25% effective tools - Master smuggler slices in the 10-20% range
• 26-50% effective tools - Master smuggler slices in the 15-25% range
• 51-75% effective tools - Master smuggler slices in the 20-30% range
• 76-100% effective tools - Master smuggler slices in the 25-35% range

Does anyone think that paying 2x more for your WUKs and AUKs to get the 76%+ tools will be a disadvantage?

note: this is only how I would guess slicing experimentation and tool effectiveness would work.

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I know you said these numbers were a guess, but my big problem isn't so much the general idea of experimentation nor the idea of expermentation as a means of differentiation amongst smugglers. there's no room to be had in our current slicing scheme to be able to shoehorn in any scheme that allows for experimentation to work or this differentiation to be had. There are 2 big hurdles to get over that I haven't seen any scheme balance both.

(1) To focus on the ranges in a way you present them (again, I know numbers can be tweaked) I don't really see much room for differentiation between good tools, great tools and perfect tools. People are here wanting to be able to provide the very best for their customers, but if the end result of using 90% tools vs. 99.3% or 75% tools (again, using your guessed at numbers) is of little reals or percieved difference then there really isn't any nead to push the limits of experimentation except as a marketing scam. Even if we tweaked the ranges offered here some so that the high range was split up and 75% gave a bottom of 25% and 80% 25.5.. 100% 28 the bottom ranges are so close together that it really doesn't pay to waste good materials getting perfect tools because the product that results won't be substantially different. And in the end, with the minimal amount of properties we're using for experimentation how hard will it really be to hit the 75% or whatever the bottom end of the noticablity scale be? Unless the bar is high enough at the top end that the resources are difficult to find then this is all for nothing.

(2) And that brings me to my other hurdle - That slicers can still get business, but that Masters will still be at both a mathmatical and percieved advantage. if the bar is rasied so high that even "great" tools are a good deal better then even "good" tools then Slicers with "perfect" tools will be offering slices comparable to those with Masters using anything but perfect tools. To use your ranges, and the current method of about a 5% bonus to masters then a Slicer with 75% tools will have a range from 20-30% and be able to offer the same product as many masters Masters. Even if 75-100% vs. 50-100% seems like its easy enough for the master to be better what if bar was set higher to accomodate the problem I first stated? You'd then have a problem where Masters will have to have 80 or 90% tools to better a Slicer with 99% ones.



So, then, what those for experimentation are really expecting to deliver to their customers. Most I see wanting a way to differentiate themselves and make a name for themselves by offering a top quality product. Well, I don't see how that will be possible without making the numbers used little more then a marketing device. This is *NOT* what I want out of being a smuggler.

Back to your specific scheme. With your numbers a 75% quality tool, for which i'd expect resources to be available often enough to be fairly easy for most if not all smugglers to accomplish regularly, would easily be the norm. if someone would want to chase resources and so forth to be able to spam they use 99.9% tools I'd have no business arguing with them, but anyone in the know would see it as almost as much of a scam as someone who would say they're giving you the best slice possible and therefore charging you a premium because they're using 99.9% AUKs. Our customers (at least the smart ones, who are the ones I prefer to deal with anyway) would soon learn thata 75% is where the breakpoint for a good slice is is and instead of asking us if we're successful 100% of the time as some do now they'll ask if we're using 75% or better tools, we'll say yes, and slice. By doing almost nothing differently on my part (except maybe having to pick the best one of the 4 or 5 coppers available at any give time to mine) I'm able to reach this top teir.

So I've done nothing differently, nor have my customers done anything differently (as the slicer on the corner will always have the best tools) and what have we really accomplished for all this debate, convincing of the devs & development time better spent elsewhere? Well, what we have is a new bottom end of a slice range for which can always be reached and a failed marketing scheme.


Which puts me at where I stand on the subject. If its differentiation you want theres's no room for experimentation on slicing tools to accomplish what some hope it will and if its just a way to bypass what you see as a "crappy" 11% slice at master then there's little experimentation can do for it that simply lobbying the devs to change the range (sans-experimentaiton) can do.


(oh, and a bit of a warning... never take 3 or 4 breaks while writing a post... then almost lose your post cause the forums timed out your login. you'll fear you lost all your time and effort as well as be all over the place like I feel I was above. Hope it wasn't all too hard to follow)

wow... i killed the thread

(deserves a bump to keep up with its sister thread.. but I won't do it again)

I lied... this needs a bump again as it appears its been forgotten

And a week later (and a whole lot of drama elsewhere in the smuggling world) my position hasn't changed any - I still haven't seen a concept to add experimentation on tools in a way that can fit in with the other factors we have going and be worth wanting to bother with.