Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband & Smuggling Missions
It would change the way we play the game, it wouldn't change anything for you, get it? If this hurt your community, as it is going to hurt ours, you would be reacting the same way. Please try to show some intelligence by at least seeing these points, as you cannot change our values, and our opinions."
PVPers do not deserve a higher reward, just because they choose to PVP. Period.
PVE'ers should not be penalized because they choose not to socialize with people with little to no social or communication skills.
If you are saying there is no hope for NPCs, why play the game? Go play counter strike buddy! This is a game filled with NPCs and Creatures that you fight to gain exp, not a First Person Shooter.
I for one love the Imperial Crackdown NPCs, they take you off your bike (with enough time to then store it) and start harassing you, you then get scanned, and they either fine you, start shooting, or whatever.
I just LOOOOOVE the Stormtrooper that enters the cantina saying he smells Rebel Scum. As an RPer I couldn't have asked for anything more out of an NPC Character. The last time it happened I was unbuffed and had no armor, so as a TKM I couldn't really use specials... so the fights were dynamic and fun, I came pretty close to actually getting incapped (Thank god for Novice Medic), and then said "We need to get out of here!" to the friend I was with, and we ran off to "hide" (wait off my TEF) it was a blast.
It was a truly enjoyable PVE experience with an NPC. NPC BHs could do the same, and the Devs have shown us that they possess the ability to design encounters like this as those Stormies are IN-GAME already.
Rueger_Karde wrote:In order to help keep this from going in circles like it has been. Let me sum up what I believe.First and foremost: I believe that NPC bountys are the worst idea I have ever heard. For a few reasons:1) They can NEVER be equal. You can make them cheat, have more HAM, make them come after more times, but that istn' equal to the skill of a live thinking player. Im sorry, but it just isnt and untill we have real AI, it wont be.2) How do you make a system that switches between NPC and PC that makes it fair for the BH. If there was an option to pick to hvae the easy guys come after you, who in thier right mind would want a real PC BH to come after them? Thats insane.So far ternque's idea of sperate missions is a good one to help solve this problem. Ones with more reward for more risk. However ternque, I would ask you to elaberate how player bounties will work for non smuggler who break the law.Secondly I believe that this seperate but equal playstyle concept you are pushing here is a load of BS.If you dont want to PvP that is your choice. You dont have to get the best weapons and armor and all that jazz. You are choosing to not be the best at PvP you could be.Onone hand you are saying that you guys are equal and should be respected as equals but on the other you are turning around and saying we are being unfair by pitting you up agaisn't PvPers. But you just said that you are equal with them. You cant have it both ways. They are better than you at PvP. (wow, kinda like a BH is better at combat than his marks)Either say you are weaker and take the hit on your pride or say you are equal and play by the same rules.We all know how well seperate but equal has worked in our nations past, lets not try to repeat history.
Rueger_Karde wrote:"Problem is... in the PVP community, everyone IS a master. Because it is the grind to Master that you do, rather than leveling up slowly like much of the PVE Community. To you, an NPC bounty hunter is nothing... because you stack yourself to be invincible to most NPCs... but to say we can be attacked by PC BH's, means we would then have to focus on being competant fighters, rather than the joy we get from exploring a dungeon, or conversing with friends while looking out at Tatooine's Twin Suns.
It would change the way we play the game, it wouldn't change anything for you, get it? If this hurt your community, as it is going to hurt ours, you would be reacting the same way. Please try to show some intelligence by at least seeing these points, as you cannot change our values, and our opinions."Here is the problem with this:You just said that "because you stack yourself to be invincible to most NPCs" Yet you want to give a choice for everyone (including the "you" you implied in that remark) the choice of fighting those NPCs.You say, "it wouldtn' change anything for you" I as well as most people, cannot take on master bounty hunters on a whim, especially when they suprise me and im not buffed, fed or spiced (yes I am breaking the law, hence why im getting attacked in the first place) So it WOULD change it for me. There is only a handfull of people that can take on the best. And thats the BHs problem not yours. Most people will get killed by a master bounty hunter. Dont play the "woa is me" card when mostly everyone else is going to be in the same boat.
DUMMY! You have no grasp of anyone elses perpsective but your own.
PVP'ers who are masters, would be MORE LIKELY to win, compared to a PVE'er that has very little combat skill and is probably also not buffed/fed/spiced. You try to compare the two but they do not match, they are not equal.
After the Combat Balance, NPC's WILL be more of a threat, and with that, I feel we will be more than worried of that BH coming after us. I think it is EASIER for a PC BH to be defeated because the game can't help him find you, if you are clever enough you can just escape... but what if the Games NPC BH pops out of nowhere while you're on Endor? Would the PC BH bother biking for 7000m only to find that you've logged out or something? Its more enjoyable for the PVE audience to fight Difficult NPCs than to deal with a BH that would send you tells announcing that he is coming after you... and bringing his Non-BH friends to help him do it.
You just need to learn to see beyond yourself. You're not off to a good start.
I think I've given ya more than enough to mill over and probably ignore anyway... meh.
Rueger_Karde wrote:"Personally I love the idea of another player coming after me and I personally think that death should have a heavier consequence if we are to prevent griefing-but we DO need to respect those who do not wish to have a PC bounty come after them for whatever reason.I don't see how this would be hard to code though- of course I am not a programmer so I am NOTt saying you don't know what you re talking about but please explain it to me.To me it seems adding a switch that would stateIf visibility is X then bounty is earnedIf bounty is earned and switch is PvE then NPC spawns in random minutes 30-60." -HOTDOGThe difference is a new engine has to be made to control the NPC spawns and difficulty and the factit only hunts you.(my comp is messing up sorry for the italIics).Here is a little programming (Im using Java as the example, since thats the language I use most) You have these things called classes that are chunks of programming. They do specific things when givin certain inputs. The player bounty system in place for Jedi is an example of a chunk of programming that does a specific thing givin specific inputs.If we just have regular player bountys, this class can be used again. Just change the inputs of when to active it, now its not using a force power in front of an imp, but getting caught breaking into a BH terminal. You now can use that chunk of programming again. No huge amount of time taken. The only thing that needs testing is how the new inputs effect the class. But if good enough testing was done in the first place, this wont be too much of a problem.Now lets say we want a brand new system that doesthings like graduated NPCS that keep comming and whatnot. Thats a whole new class that needs to be written, tested and then tested agaisn't whats already been written. Well all these things are already done if we just use the player bounty only code. Then we can use that time for more smuggler quests and whatnot.
You're just saying that because the system would be complicated to code, that we don't deserve a fair system? Then you give an example of programming that is simplified to the level of a child making a program on a graphing calculator.
SOE knows a bit more about languages and development, if a Stormtrooper can harass me in the Cantina, a Bounty Hunter can track me down.
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
Ipseck wrote:
I'm sorta confused. How is it that PvE and PvP are different "playstyles" ? They're both parts of the game... How is PvP different from PvE. The people describing it make it seem like there's 2 seperate games here coexisting. I don't understand teh distinction. On the one hand... you're killing toons, on the other, your killing toons.. I don't get it. Its the same thing.As mentioned earlier, some people play this game to roleplay and it is very true that few PvPers are real role players.
You don't fight in PvP to lose and in order to at least have a shot at winning it means you need to have almost the best of everything. I PvP all the time, and without a doubt being a good PvP player relies greatly on your items and your bank account. A casual player may not have the time, or the desire to shop for the best just so they can have a shot. You can be wound griefed, insulted and generally have your life made a living hell by another person. There are also exploits and other tricks that can make an honest player at a horrid disadvantage. PvP is stressful and contains too much one-upmanship to appeal to many gamers.
PvE works on certain mechanics that makes the opponent predictable and normally able to be defeated. The NPC's don't exploit or use third party programs to get an advantage. You can still have a good fight and not have to worry about having the top of the line equipment. It is less stressful, enjoyable and allows you to group with others without concern over who is what faction and just have good clean fun. You are easily able to roleplay as a solo character or within a group.
I role play and I pvp, and I pve. Ya know what, plain and simple, I just play the game. Neither one is a playstyle, they are both components to the game. It is just that One of these components has been stereotyped to such an extent that a small number of people have turned this into a 2-sided, us vs them type of war, when infact there are no sides. Its just one element to a much greater picture.
The abusive folks are a very small minority, which can be handled by the /report command. I have yet to recieve any abusive behavior for losing to someone in pvp (and i've been at it a long time and lost alot). The only time you can be wound-griefed is if you fein death, which is a cheap move, so getting blackbarred really isn't a big deal, it just wastes some of your's and their time. The whole point of pvp isn't to just win. Its interaction with other players and factions. If we're going up against bounty hunters, no one should expect to win or even compete. That's the whole point in having bounties: to fear the consequences. There's nothing to fear if you can routinely beat them. You're bringing up alot of very minor 'what if's into the argument that really don't affect anyone. So what if someone cheats and kills you? you die.. the missions over.. you don't decay.. its just a minor inconvenience. No one person can make life a living hell for another. If you die, you die. If you see yourself getting blackbarred, stand up and take the deathblow. If someone's harassing you /addignore them. Someone can only make your life a living hell if you let them. Again, none of this has to do with smuggling, but the way certain people stereotype pvp. I invite anyone to come along on a casual day with me. I routinely go everywhere overt, often times unbuffed. You will see what its like to sometimes be hunted and sometimes be the hunter. It adds a little spice to the game. Not once have I been harassed or abused. Quite the contrary, I usually get/give compliments.
To be a serious PvPer, then yes, you do need the best of the best equipment, but to be hunted by the best of the best, you don't. You simply need to be able to avoid the best of the best, and THATs what being a smuggler is all about. Not avoiding some predictible AI, but evading the best bounty hunters and Imperial officers there are on your server. THAT is risk and THAT is smuggling.
Rueger_Karde wrote:
"Problem is... in the PVP community, everyone IS a master. Because it is the grind to Master that you do, rather than leveling up slowly like much of the PVE Community. To you, an NPC bounty hunter is nothing... because you stack yourself to be invincible to most NPCs... but to say we can be attacked by PC BH's, means we would then have to focus on being competant fighters, rather than the joy we get from exploring a dungeon, or conversing with friends while looking out at Tatooine's Twin Suns.
It would change the way we play the game, it wouldn't change anything for you, get it? If this hurt your community, as it is going to hurt ours, you would be reacting the same way. Please try to show some intelligence by at least seeing these points, as you cannot change our values, and our opinions."
Here is the problem with this:
You just said that "because you stack yourself to be invincible to most NPCs" Yet you want to give a choice for everyone (including the "you" you implied in that remark) the choice of fighting those NPCs.
You say, "it wouldtn' change anything for you" I as well as most people, cannot take on master bounty hunters on a whim, especially when they suprise me and im not buffed, fed or spiced (yes I am breaking the law, hence why im getting attacked in the first place) So it WOULD change it for me. There is only a handfull of people that can take on the best. And thats the BHs problem not yours. Most people will get killed by a master bounty hunter. Dont play the "woa is me" card when mostly everyone else is going to be in the same boat.
DUMMY! You have no grasp of anyone elses perpsective but your own.
PVP'ers who are masters, would be MORE LIKELY to win, compared to a PVE'er that has very little combat skill and is probably also not buffed/fed/spiced. You try to compare the two but they do not match, they are not equal.
After the Combat Balance, NPC's WILL be more of a threat, and with that, I feel we will be more than worried of that BH coming after us. I think it is EASIER for a PC BH to be defeated because the game can't help him find you, if you are clever enough you can just escape... but what if the Games NPC BH pops out of nowhere while you're on Endor? Would the PC BH bother biking for 7000m only to find that you've logged out or something? Its more enjoyable for the PVE audience to fight Difficult NPCs than to deal with a BH that would send you tells announcing that he is coming after you... and bringing his Non-BH friends to help him do it.
You just need to learn to see beyond yourself. You're not off to a good start"
Rockweaver wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
They can still hunt down players Ternque, but they shouldn't be able to hunt down the players who have had no interest in PVP. It's not so much an insult if they think about it. They have their own mature community members who would understand that others don't care to be in PVP of any kind and will respect it.
Message Edited by Smuggler_Caylin on 06-18-2004 09:56 AM
First of all, I completely understand that many PvE'ers want absolutely zilch to do with PvP. I was not addressing the issue that you are describing to any degree at all. If you go back up and read my post. I reprimanded the guy I quoted for hastily generalizing that all pvp'ers are not roleplayers. I see you say the same thing yourself. This is a stereotype, and I don't appreciate it being put upon me. No thank you.
Perhaps you'll read my many posts which do desparately attemp to find solutions for PvE'ers while at the same time maintaining the "bite" of this contraband system. I have shown alot of respect for them, as I've done nothing in the past few days but think of ways to fix their problem. Don't assume otherwise.
To be sure I'm not really sure what you are refering to in your post above. Please note my many recent posts to institute smuggler missions that are of lower risk and make it easy for a PvE smuggler to remain off the terminals. Same smuggler xp, lower visibility risk. Whew! I hope you weren't incinuating that I have no respect for the PvE'er. I have respect for the law (that I will break), nothing more nothing less.
This comes down to a numbers game I'm afraid.
You are a rarity, as a PVP RPer. I am a PVPer myself to some degree, but I only PVP with my friends, as I know they are not using exploits, hacks, double slices or anything like that, and will not DB if that is what is agreed on. So I would call myself a PVE'er before I call myself a PVP'er as it is a rare day that any of us actually duel.
The PVPers that I (and those of us who are pro-PVE have also) come in contact with, are usually young, brash, often educated but imature players who get PURE JOY out of ruining someone elses time. This of course is not limited to PVPers, but 9 times out of 10 when we find someone Spamming that they are selling Mando armor or Stormtrooper armor out of their vendor and it turns out to be an empty pack... its usually someone from a PVP Guild, and a known PVPer.
If everyone were as intelligent and respectful as some of you from the PVP side are proving to us you can be, then everything would be fine. But there is no mutual respect between players, and without Mutual Respect, PVP holds no interest for me.
Can we at least agree that there are some PVPers out there that are hell bent on ruining the time for everyone else? If you fail to recognize at least that truth, I think we can get no where, because those people ARE in the game, and without protecting other players right not to have to interact with those poor souls, you are really condeming us to unwaranted Torment.
WE ARE CRIMINALS!! THERE ARE NPC POLICE FOR A REASON! NOT EVERYONE IS A MASTER AND NOT EVERYONE CAN FIGHT EVEN THE IMPERIAL PATROLS!! IF YOU ARE A MASTER, GOOD FOR YOU! YOU DESERVE TO BEAT THE STORMTROOPERS!
Problem is... in the PVP community, everyone IS a master. Because it is the grind to Master that you do, rather than leveling up slowly like much of the PVE Community. To you, an NPC bounty hunter is nothing... because you stack yourself to be invincible to most NPCs... but to say we can be attacked by PC BH's, means we would then have to focus on being competant fighters, rather than the joy we get from exploring a dungeon, or conversing with friends while looking out at Tatooine's Twin Suns.
It would change the way we play the game, it wouldn't change anything for you, get it? If this hurt your community, as it is going to hurt ours, you would be reacting the same way. Please try to show some intelligence by at least seeing these points, as you cannot change our values, and our opinions.
My history of posts should show you my respect for your playstyle, I'm serious. I see how you view it as a threat, and if you interpret what GM said in certain ways, then they are a threat to PvE'ers. I see this in (almost) every post made by a PvE'er. You guys seem threatened, and I don't think that's cool.
At the same time, I see that the possibility of putting in an NPC/PC BH "switch" could also be bad on a much larger crowd of players than just those who want to do PvE smuggler. If we implement a "switch" and take all the time that would go into designing such a system when we can just use one that is already in place, then we are talking about a serious threat to the overal quality of our revamp. We would also hurt player BH's (i know some of you don't care about them, hehe), they are JUST as starved for content than we are.
As far as the non-smuggler PvE'er, i see NO problem with them being able to choose to whether or not to use contraband to control their visibility, but for the PvE smuggler, they spend their whole profession breaking the law. It would be a damn shame to osctracize PvE only players from being smugglers. That is why I suggest a much much much more easily coded solution (so that spices and slices get to see some changes too!) - low risk smuggler missions that grant the same smuggler xp as high risk ones. The high risk missions would have a better reward than the low. Low risk refers to a low visibility level gain if failed. Mind you, this is not a punishment for the PvE smuggler. PvE smugglers can still take these risky missions, but not as often.
There is no punishment in that they can level just as quickly as a "risky" smuggler, and they can also earn the rewards that a "risky" smuggler can. This is an acceptable comprimise in my eyes because the general population fears the law, and so should the smuggler who wants to be careful.
Only word from GreenMarine will tell if making a PvE/PvP "switch" will be feasible. If it is not, I really suggest you support low risk smuggler missions. If you PvE'ers don't accept that as a solution (or another one), you might as well scrap this fantastic idea that GM has. This is an experimental idea.. some experiments fail. If a real legal system is failed to be implemented in a MMO, you can kiss it goodbye. I'll drop smuggler forever.
This bickering has to stop around here. All of you buried in the PvP/PvE argument just pick your heads up out of the brawl. There are some nice and shiny solutions all in this thread. We as a community get that PvE'ers don't want any PvP, we understand that some do. We also understand that this is a helluva system that GM has given us. We also understand that PvP'ers love the hell out of the idea. We undertand it all 
I'm not suggesting dropping the discussions, I'm just saying that I'd hate it if this issue disolved the possibility for as cool a contraband system as GM suggests.
What if Player Bounties only activated when you actively participated in the Destruction of an Opposing Factions base. Say you attack Josie's Factional HQ, and destroy it. Your participating in its destruction means you are active in PVP (as bases belong to players, not NPCs) and would then be open to PC BH Attack.
PVE'ers who only commit crimes while in PVE, would have a PVE penalty. So attacking the Weapons Facility, would generate NPC Bounties under the guise of "departments" or something. ie, the Empire would likely send those INVOLVED in your crime after you, rather than another group or multiple groups.
This way, it is your PARTICIPATION that dictates what happens to you, and not the act of using Illegal Goods all together. PVPers would have PVP penalties for participating in Player Battles against Player Owned Factional Structures, and PVE'ers would have to worry about NPC retribution (which would need to be scaled in difficulty to be an actual threat).
No flags, no tags, just participation.
PVPERS THAT USE CONTRABAND WOULD HAVE AN ADVANTAGE OVER PVE'ERS IN PVE! THAT IS NOT FAIR!
IF THIS ADVANTAGE PERTAINED ONLY TO PVP, THAT WOULD BE FINE AS IT WOULD NOT EFFECT THE PVE'ERS!
It's that simple. Being open to PVP conflict does not entitle you to better gear, or better options. Restricting our use of Contraband would be bad for our RP environment and our gameplay experience.
In case you hadn't noticed, there are more PVE'ers out there than PVP'ers. Do not assume that the number of PVE'ers responding to this post is representative of the PVE'ers who play the game. They just get frustrated with your lack of perspective, and give up arguing with you.
You will not be gifted such a luxury from me.
Ternque01 wrote:
Rockweaver wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:They can still hunt down players Ternque, but they shouldn't be able to hunt down the players who have had no interest in PVP. It's not so much an insult if they think about it. They have their own mature community members who would understand that others don't care to be in PVP of any kind and will respect it.Message Edited by Smuggler_Caylin on 06-18-2004 09:56 AM
First of all, I completely understand that many PvE'ers want absolutely zilch to do with PvP. I was not addressing the issue that you are describing to any degree at all. If you go back up and read my post. I reprimanded the guy I quoted for hastily generalizing that all pvp'ers are not roleplayers. I see you say the same thing yourself. This is a stereotype, and I don't appreciate it being put upon me. No thank you.
Perhaps you'll read my many posts which do desparately attemp to find solutions for PvE'ers while at the same time maintaining the "bite" of this contraband system. I have shown alot of respect for them, as I've done nothing in the past few days but think of ways to fix their problem. Don't assume otherwise.
To be sure I'm not really sure what you are refering to in your post above. Please note my many recent posts to institute smuggler missions that are of lower risk and make it easy for a PvE smuggler to remain off the terminals. Same smuggler xp, lower visibility risk. Whew! I hope you weren't incinuating that I have no respect for the PvE'er. I have respect for the law (that I will break), nothing more nothing less.
This comes down to a numbers game I'm afraid.
You are a rarity, as a PVP RPer. I am a PVPer myself to some degree, but I only PVP with my friends, as I know they are not using exploits, hacks, double slices or anything like that, and will not DB if that is what is agreed on. So I would call myself a PVE'er before I call myself a PVP'er as it is a rare day that any of us actually duel.
The PVPers that I (and those of us who are pro-PVE have also) come in contact with, are usually young, brash, often educated but imature players who get PURE JOY out of ruining someone elses time. This of course is not limited to PVPers, but 9 times out of 10 when we find someone Spamming that they are selling Mando armor or Stormtrooper armor out of their vendor and it turns out to be an empty pack... its usually someone from a PVP Guild, and a known PVPer.
If everyone were as intelligent and respectful as some of you from the PVP side are proving to us you can be, then everything would be fine. But there is no mutual respect between players, and without Mutual Respect, PVP holds no interest for me.
Can we at least agree that there are some PVPers out there that are hell bent on ruining the time for everyone else? If you fail to recognize at least that truth, I think we can get no where, because those people ARE in the game, and without protecting other players right not to have to interact with those poor souls, you are really condeming us to unwaranted Torment.
WE ARE CRIMINALS!! THERE ARE NPC POLICE FOR A REASON! NOT EVERYONE IS A MASTER AND NOT EVERYONE CAN FIGHT EVEN THE IMPERIAL PATROLS!! IF YOU ARE A MASTER, GOOD FOR YOU! YOU DESERVE TO BEAT THE STORMTROOPERS!
Problem is... in the PVP community, everyone IS a master. Because it is the grind to Master that you do, rather than leveling up slowly like much of the PVE Community. To you, an NPC bounty hunter is nothing... because you stack yourself to be invincible to most NPCs... but to say we can be attacked by PC BH's, means we would then have to focus on being competant fighters, rather than the joy we get from exploring a dungeon, or conversing with friends while looking out at Tatooine's Twin Suns.
It would change the way we play the game, it wouldn't change anything for you, get it? If this hurt your community, as it is going to hurt ours, you would be reacting the same way. Please try to show some intelligence by at least seeing these points, as you cannot change our values, and our opinions.My history of posts should show you my respect for your playstyle, I'm serious. I see how you view it as a threat, and if you interpret what GM said in certain ways, then they are a threat to PvE'ers. I see this in (almost) every post made by a PvE'er. You guys seem threatened, and I don't think that's cool.
At the same time, I see that the possibility of putting in an NPC/PC BH "switch" could also be bad on a much larger crowd of players than just those who want to do PvE smuggler. If we implement a "switch" and take all the time that would go into designing such a system when we can just use one that is already in place, then we are talking about a serious threat to the overal quality of our revamp. We would also hurt player BH's (i know some of you don't care about them, hehe), they are JUST as starved for content than we are.
As far as the non-smuggler PvE'er, i see NO problem with them being able to choose to whether or not to use contraband to control their visibility, but for the PvE smuggler, they spend their whole profession breaking the law. It would be a damn shame to osctracize PvE only players from being smugglers. That is why I suggest a much much much more easily coded solution (so that spices and slices get to see some changes too!) - low risk smuggler missions that grant the same smuggler xp as high risk ones. The high risk missions would have a better reward than the low. Low risk refers to a low visibility level gain if failed. Mind you, this is not a punishment for the PvE smuggler. PvE smugglers can still take these risky missions, but not as often.
There is no punishment in that they can level just as quickly as a "risky" smuggler, and they can also earn the rewards that a "risky" smuggler can. This is an acceptable comprimise in my eyes because the general population fears the law, and so should the smuggler who wants to be careful.
Only word from GreenMarine will tell if making a PvE/PvP "switch" will be feasible. If it is not, I really suggest you support low risk smuggler missions. If you PvE'ers don't accept that as a solution (or another one), you might as well scrap this fantastic idea that GM has. This is an experimental idea.. some experiments fail. If a real legal system is failed to be implemented in a MMO, you can kiss it goodbye. I'll drop smuggler forever.
This bickering has to stop around here. All of you buried in the PvP/PvE argument just pick your heads up out of the brawl. There are some nice and shiny solutions all in this thread. We as a community get that PvE'ers don't want any PvP, we understand that some do. We also understand that this is a helluva system that GM has given us. We also understand that PvP'ers love the hell out of the idea. We undertand it all
I'm not suggesting dropping the discussions, I'm just saying that I'd hate it if this issue disolved the possibility for as cool a contraband system as GM suggests.