Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband & Smuggling Missions
"Okay okay, quite frankly I've had enough. If it is too hard to code a NPC BH, I'd rather all bounties be taken by players. I've thought about this, and while i've recently been a huge supporter of a PvE/PvP "switch", if it is not possible I say to hell with the complaints.
Caylin and some others bring up the point that one can't level up a smuggler without having to PvP. I'm sorry guys, but I don't little sympathy for someone who chooses the life of crime. If you choose the smuggler profession - the profession of a criminal, reaping rewards from breaking the law, then you must suffer the risks. PC bounty hunters are a risk. If anyone should be hunting people it is them.
How long have we cried for real risk/reward? How many times have we thought up plans to get it? Well damnit we got some real rewards now, and we've got some real risks. I suggest you all take responsibility for your actions. The time has come for one helluva change in this game. If the change gets to hot for some of you smugglers, then just play your missions cool and do what you're told - simple as that. I for one am dying to be hunted. I am dying for some real risks for some real rewards.
Hell make two sets of smuggler missions... one is less risky but also offers less reward, the other... more risky and more rewarding. That way those who don't want to take the risks that will get them a BH don't have to. Those who want some danger and excitement (everything a Jedi doesn't crave mind you) can take the harder ones. If a PvE oriented smuggler wants to take on a more risky mission every now and again for fun, that's fine i'm sure that by taking the less risky missions all the time they certainly have some leeway to take some risk.
I can only appologize if this comes off my sleeve as rude, but it's how I feel. If you don't want PvP, then don't consent with yourself to use contraband. You're the ones who make your own choices. I'll be damned if I get jipped out of something that could be absolutely incredible becauseour player base cannot livewith the freedom to make their own choices. That is the point when a game ceases to be a challenge, and begins to be el Lamerito Supreme with extra hot Taco Bell sauce. Using contraband = consenting to PvP. There's the equation.
My solution is this toward smugglers wanting no PvP: institute two different missions on our terminals, risky and er.. not so risky. Risky Missions give better payouts and L00t, but for an equal risk of raising visibility. Low Risk MIssions give lower forms of payout, as well as equally lower risk of raising visibility. BOTH missions will give EQUAL amounts of smuggling XP. This is a fair system.NPC BH's are an insult to the BH community, and are much less of a threat than PC BH's. It is like comparing apples to oranges, there is no separate but equal here. Because they are not equal, a PvE smuggler should not be privalidged to the same rewards. If a PvE/PvP switch were in place it would be in effect equal reward for unequal risk.
Guys/gals, the rules have changed, either we adapt, or we get the lamest revamp I've could even think of. You know it. I know it. Hell even the Pope knows it."
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Someone who feels exactly like me. I tried for a page to get that point across, but they wouldn't have it. So I posted an idea here to fix it, and try to compromise. No responces. Thats fine with me, because I like this better.
I do have a question for you though man, how would the average joe work into your current idea. The idea of split smuggler missions. Its seems good for smugglers, but what about other people breaking the law by carrying sliced items and spice?
Seems to me we can insert my idea here (if my idea is implied then I apologize). Basically highly illegal acts put novice artistan joe on the BH terminals. Is it forced PvP on Joe? No, no one forced him to carry a sliced weapon.
Nerj wrote:
RellikCro wrote:
GuntherSlag wrote:
I thought of all people the Smuggler's would understand that this game represents a place full of danger and intrigue. How a BH hunting you after you've committed multiple crimes is considered ruining your gameplay is beyond me. If it bothers you that much, then why on earth are you playing criminals????
Danger Yes, forced PvP no. We are not afraid to dye, hunt, be hunted, or partake in battle... but that does not mean we want to partake in PvP.
Then don't do things that get visability, for one don't be a JEDI and don't carry illegal items. By doing this it will make your PvE experience more .... interesting.
Maybe you guys should be entertainers or something. I expect this kind of reaction from them. I can see the **edit** really hitting the fan when some AFK Dancer is killed because she had a sliced blaster hidden in her leotard
So now not only are PvE'ers a lower class then you (just my interpretation of your words and language) but entertainers are now also "below" you. We represent the largest group of players on the servers, over 90% last count... the casual gamers and RP'ers. Entertainers are a huge social group in the game, you may not like their playstyle, it may seem odd or even "stupid" to you but your not the one playing it so it dont have to be your "cup of tea". But you do need to respect that type of playstyle.
How can you RP when being hunted by a Bounty Hunter IS part of the movies? Again an NPC will not take the place of a real player. You do NOT have NPC medics,entertainers, weaponsmiths,armorsmith, etc. that provide goods. Smugglers and Jedi are both hunted by Bounty Hunters which is a Player profession
And you're absolutely right you have the right to choose. You have the right to choose NOT to slice weapons or carry illegal contraband. You can choose to live a life free of crime. A life that is blissful and happy and clean.
My profession is largely based on slicing and spice, I am a hardcore PvE'er, I deman to be respected as such. I, nor any other PvE'er I have seen posting here, wants a life free of crime and punishment.. in fact most of them have said right out they would enjoy beefed up mobs, tougher missions, and consequences for slicing. But they also want it done in their playstyle! Some are for pure hardcore PvE, some a mix of PvE and PvP, and others hardcore PvP.... there have been some very good suggestions on how to easily incorperate a system that would be beneficial to ALL playstyles. It was appeasing to alot of the more outspoken PvE'ers in this thread and alot of the PvP'ers alike. Hopefully one of these solutions can be a reality so we all can enjoy the game we pay to play.
And a Bounty Hunter 's profession is largely based on hunting marks. We get paid for doing our job with other Players NOT NPCs, yet you refuse another profession the same opportunity to interact with the community. Yes, other players DO NOT need to interact with us. However, if we took that position with all PROFESSIONS how boring would the game be. In addition it is a MMORG and interaction with others is required.
The devs will never make everyone happy. That's impossible. I'm just glad that the majority of players don't ever read these forums. It's too damn depressing. I'm going to go meet them in the game and enjoy myself. Have fun kiddies and don't do anything that might get you killed.
You are right, the devs will never make everyone happy... their job is to compromise and impliment systems that will be beneficial to the largest player base.
As long as you fail to see the issue, there is little I can do to explan it. Again and let me make this crystal clear for you... Hardcore PvE'ers are just that PvE'ers!!! Not PvP'ers, while we respect your playstyle we ask that you respect our playstyle also. Alot of us, not all there are some that are pve and pvp players, want nothing to do with pvp, the attitude it brings, and the game breaking (for us) anti emersion that so much happens when you are around pvp.
I have absolutely NP RPing iwth other PvE'ers, I have yet to see a good RP PvP'er. So just in case you missed it, it is the very core of PvP itself we do not want, we want none of it, nothing, notta, zero.... we ask that you respect our playstyle like we respect yours.. it is that simple.
Nerj wrote:
RellikCro wrote:
Nerj wrote:
RellikCro wrote:
I do in fact know about BH's and their drive to get player bounties and I also am quite aware what SOE has stated on player bounties "We will never force PvP onto the playerbase" and this is why Player bounties have never been introduced.
They also stated that the game would be for the casual player too and yet we have 2 dungeons and the FRS system which is strictlly for the UBER power gamers
The game has alot of content for casual gamers but they must also provide content for the hardcore players as well. This goes back to respecting each playstyle.
The point is that the DEVs stated that they WOULD NOT put stuff in just for the power gamers. Now, they are stating that if you DO NOT want to be in forced PvP then DO NOT carry illegal goods. The Imperial Crackdown is NOT working because, it is strickly NPC based and using an NPC system the rewards will have to be less.
Take a look around you, (in my own experience) 90% of the playerbase cares not for PvP or the GCW (mostly because it only can be done thru PvP) and are casual pve based players. Even SWG own astrometric support this with showing only a 1% overt rating in the last astrometrics.
AND the DEVS are pushing to have more involvement in the GCW, hence the GCW revamp BEFORE ours. By the way this means more PvP not less.
Yes, they have stated that artisians, entertainers, and others will be more involved in the GCW but you must of missed them also stating this will be non-pvp content. SOE, not the devs, have mandated nonconsentual pvp... some speculate it was Lucas but without evidence it is all just rumors. Regardless it has been stated without question that PvP will only be implimented in a consentual way.
It will be, when carrying illegal goods you are consenting to PvP encounters, smugglers will take the majority of the risks. In addition new income streams open up by having smugglers remove players from the BH terms
If player bounties and/or smuggler bounties were inacted that forced PvP unconsentually (in other words neutrals) then you would defiantely see an increase of pve'ers posting on the forums and it will turn into another panic fix like what happened with the "awesome" artisian "upgrade" that was placed and then imediately taken out.
Maybe yes - maybe No, the response maybe see your local smuggler to get you off the terminals. Like we DO have Death Decay even after pages and pages of protests. We have IDers that are the ONLY ones that can change your stats (changed from the begining). These things are NOT going to change even after all the protests.
The difference between death decay, ID stat changes and PvP particpation is that the prior two were not taken out or put in but were already there. They changed who can perform it and how fast it decays because MORE ppl were complaining that items did not decay enough and if you want to get technical WE DID in fact have an impact on decay greatly by drastically reducing the amount. Plus it also gave somekind of "sting" to death that was being explioted simply for a "fast ticket home". So they patched an expliot (expliot just means using a system in such a way that it was not originally intended to be used) which is a must and something we all should cheer them for doing.
Ah death's sting -- decay, Ahillegal contraband sting -- PvP bounties. Using illegal goods with a "sting" is also an exploit, the first phase of which is the Imperial Crackdown. However, there are NOT enough server resources to implement good NPC Bounty Hunters you suggest, actual Player Bounty Hunters will fill this need AND provide additional content for them.
So yes, they do listen. They may not always do what you personaly want but they do indeed listen and we have indeed changed the game as players. Take the Artisian system that was put into place and they put alot of resources into... taken out the next day.
Of course they are listening, that is why we are getting a revamp. Smugglers want to be hunted, you said so yourself. The best solution is PvP bounties. Unless you want to double or tripple the number of servers in the system to handle your ideas.
I am all for PvP Bounties as long as there is a choice, as long as everyone can play the game to the fullest and still have a choice. I do not yell "take away any kind of PvP" so why do you insist on tell me that I can no longer enjoy the game without being thrown into PvP?
I am NOT, what I am stating is that the HIGHER RISK of PvP which is a small percentage of players, as you point out, get a HIGHER REWARD
You are stating in your opinion that PvP has a higher risk, I am stating as my opinion the risk is not higher but just more annoying and game ruining. My playstyle is hardcore PvE, I deserve the very same rewards that a hardcore PvP player has... after all we both pay our monthly payment the same. We both bought the game, we both shell out the manhours per week... you are not in anyway more special then I am.
LOOK Jedi are forced into PvP, as such they get a HIGHER reward for it (More Power). A Smuggler forced into PvP should also get higher rewards. Perhaps you think that we should also be at the same level as Jedi since "I deserve the very same rewards that a hardcore PvP player has" HIGHER RISK (aka visability) means HIGHER REWARDS, and getting visabilty does MEAN higher Risk.
P.S. -- You do not have to be in PvP to be affected by jerks. There are plenty of players that can drag PvE MOBS on top of you and then laugh at you
Yes I totaly agree. This problem is not PvE or PvP related it is a common grief by all playstyles and at times purely inocent. But I am not forced to engage that person and I can easily add him/her to /addignore and either deal with the mobs or run for it. I have yet to see anyone successfully /addignore a PvP'er coming after them and not be affected by them. If such a feature was added I would be more willing to agree to your PvP terms.
Message Edited by Nerj on 06-17-2004 11:49 PM
You have this obseesion that everything revolves around PvP, you think PvP are better then PvE'ers, you state so in your replies. This is EXACTLY the type of attitude that turns alot of PvE'ers off of PvP in the first place. You are NO better then I am, you have NO right to better loot then I do simply because you play the game with a different playstyle. Your response show you have no respect for me, my playstyle or the majority of players on the server. And that my friend is one of the biggest reasons I hate pvp and the ppl behind it.
We have suggested many ideas and solutions that would meet both sides but you are not satisfied till everyone is FORCED into your playstyle, EVERYONE must play like you, EVERYONE must be a PvP'er. Yes this game is based on interaction of other players and we do that just WONDERFUL without PvP, we are fully capable of having fun and playing the game wihtout being YOU, I know this might amaze you but we actualy are able to find enjoyment in this game and challange without you shoving PvP down our throats everytime we turn around. Interaction does not mean interference, it just means interaction.
Nura wrote:
Greenmarine,
Please have the visibility of smugglers result in being hunted by NPC bountyhunters. I am totally against any PvP requirement here. I don't mind being hunted down, just not by other players.
No PvP required here.
so beeing attacked by contraband scanners is not enuff for you.you want also to be attacked by ueber NPC bountyhunters while waiting for shuttles?
are you scared that your ego will suffer if a RL player shots you?
oh lol ... i give up.
you guys are just funny
Message Edited by Nura on 06-18-2004 06:02 AM
This again is another post why alot of us hate PvP'ers, you still disrespect our playstyle and us in the process. You try to belittle us simply because we do not enjoy playing the game as you do.
Nerj wrote:
DRWolfe wrote:
Wow, I come back and almost 200 more messages. Are we still debating PvE and PvP? What happened to the nice little system we came up with where one can choose PvE or PvP? Is that not sufficient for everyone, or did it just get ignored? Here's my last summary of it, if it's been further refined, please point the way to it.
The player has a switch set on his character, either in the launchpad settings or by some in-game means like Covert/Overt (probably better if someone wants PvE on one character and PvP on another) that will determine if a character is PvE or PvP for purposes of illegal activity visibility. Covert/Overt will continue to determine PvE or PvP for GCW.
Once a character's visibility has increased enough to get a Bounty, one of two things happens depending on this flag.
PvP Flag: Character is put on the Bounty Hunter terminals for PC BHs to hunt the character down. If the BH dies, another can try as usual.
PvE Flag: A random number is generated (say from 15-180) that indicates how long in actual online minutes before an NPC Bounty Hunter will track down the character. When this timer expires, a ship lands and the BH emerges to attack the character. If the character or the BH is not killed, a new random number is generated (this one from 120-240) and this is how long before another attempt is made. If the BH dies, the random number for the next attempt will be longer (say 180-300). These times can be adjusted for balancing risk vs. annoyance factor.
Either way, if the player is killed, the bounty is removed and visibility is reduced a great amount.
Visibility is reduced slowly over time during which no illegal activity is performed by the character to simulate "hiding out". If this drops visibility below Bounty level, NPC Bounty Hunters stop hunting the character (for PvE) and PC Bounty Hunters get a "Mission Failed" notice, the mission is removed from their datapad, and the character is removed from the BH Terminals (for PvP).
Lol, Trying to CHANGE the way the code works. First, when a player enter an area the area spawns with MOBS. you cannot have a player being tracked from server to server with a timer on them. Second, the easier way to implement the system is with PvP bounties. Third you cannot have NPCs doing the job of PCs, namely hunting other players.
While others try to find ways to impliment a system beneficial to all you are still hell bent on forcing your playstyle on everyone. Your way or the highway it seems.
Why don't you stop trying to force feed us your playstyle and start contributing to ideas that will benefit all players. We do not want your playstyle.. is that simple enough for you to understand?
MisterWizard wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
Britamart wrote:
any thoughts to the possibilty of smugglers getting on BH terms? I think pc bounties are one the best ideas to come around in a long time, and would love to see them expanded upon.
Its WAY early to be talking about this stuff, but one of the discussions during the Fan Fest was a kind of "Smuggler's Slicing Gambit"for the Jedi terminals. The idea was that smuggler's would have a percentage chance to remove a Jedi's name from a terminal. If the Smuggler was successful, the Jedi's name would be removed from the terminal, but if the Smuggler failed, they would both end up on the terminal. Everyone liked that idea very much
I posted the following on the In Concept discussion, and figured I'd put it here in response to TH's comment.
Allow smugglers to slice bounty hunter terminals to ADD or REMOVE players to terminals. There should be some restriction on what type of player can have a bounty put on him, such as overts, Jedi with TEFs, and smugglers who recently added or removed a bounty on a player (the act of puttinga bounty on a player makes the smuggler eligible for a bounty put on him). The Smuggler should have to front the money when adding a bounty, or pay a portion (depending on his slicing skill) of the bounty to take a player off.
REMOVING A BOUNTY: This is relatively straightforward -- choose Remove Bounty, receive a list of players who have bounties, and pay the fee to remove it. In turn, the smuggler becomes eligible for a bounty to be placed on him.
ADDING A BOUNTY: The smuggler gets a command, /targetForBounty, whch they can use to get a datapad biosignature of the targeted player that is good for 24 hours. The only players this command would work on are those eligible to have bounties placed on them -- Jedi with TEFs, overts, coverts with TEFs, and other smugglers who have active bounties. Before the biosignature item becomes invalid (24 hours) the smuggler has to slice it into the BH terminal to add the bounty. The smuggler can set the price with minimums and maximums depending on the difficulty of the mark. Optionally, getting a biosignature can make the smuggler temporarily targetable by the mark.
WHAT IT ACCOMPLISHES: Adding a bounty will add a lot of fun and interactivity -- and challenge -- to potential marks, smugglers, and bounty hunters. It is somewhat self-policing: players have to actively do something to make themselves eligible as a mark, the smuggler has to be near them to get the biosignature, bounty payout minimums/maximums will eliminate griefing and abuse to non-combat players (who wants to kill a Rebel chef for 1500cr?), and the smuggler makes himself a potential mark by adding or removing a bounty.
If I get what you said correctly the only way a Smuggler could get a potential mark is if they themselves tampered with the BH term, to either put on or take off anothers bounty? If this is true then this is a good compromise... it is a clear straight forward option to participate in PvP and it will not take away from what smugglers can already do.
This IS the type of contirubation we need!
GreenMarine wrote:
This thread is huge! I'm working through reading all of this and I'm writing down notes. It will probably not be until Friday before I can post some responses (mainly because I'm fairly busy today and tonight).
"If I get what you said correctly the only way a Smuggler could get a potential mark is if they themselves tampered with the BH term, to either put on or take off anothers bounty? If this is true then this is a good compromise... it is a clear straight forward option to participate in PvP and it will not take away from what smugglers can already do.
This IS the type of contirubation we need!"
YA but this is LAME! Putting the actual idea aside, your view of it at least is extremly tame. What about doing the illegal things that smugglers do on a day to day basis.
Let me try another way to get our point across:
You say you dont like PvP. In fact you hate it. You hate the people that do it, how they act, the difficulty of it. You just hate it. What a great punishment for breaking the law?
You know, you guys had me lulled for awhile. And I thank ternque for bringing me back to the light. You cannot **edit**-foot around this issue. The system is already in place, ready to go. EASY TO IMPLEMENT. The only thing that we SHOULD be arguing is which things Joe Shmoe player can or cannot do to keep off the BH terminals. Because they have it easy, they have a straight choice. The smugglers is where it gets a little different, because they are career criminals. But even to that I say deal with it because you can CHOOSE to not skim off the top therefore CHOOSEING to not play pvp. Its so cut and dry but you bog down the issue with this playstyle crap. Your PvE playstyle is going to have to incorperate not breaking the law then.
Ipseck wrote:
I'm sorta confused. How is it that PvE and PvP are different "playstyles" ? They're both parts of the game... How is PvP different from PvE. The people describing it make it seem like there's 2 seperate games here coexisting. I don't understand teh distinction. On the one hand... you're killing toons, on the other, your killing toons.. I don't get it. Its the same thing.
As mentioned earlier, some people play this game to roleplay and it is very true that few PvPers are real role players.
You don't fight in PvP to lose and in order to at least have a shot at winning it means you need to have almost the best of everything. I PvP all the time, and without a doubt being a good PvP player relies greatly on your items and your bank account.A casual player may not have the time, or the desire to shop for the best just so they can have a shot. You can be wound griefed, insulted and generally have your life made a living hell by another person. There are also exploits and other tricks that can make an honest player at a horrid disadvantage. PvP is stressful and contains too much one-upmanship to appeal to many gamers.
PvE works on certain mechanics that makes the opponent predictable and normally able to be defeated.The NPC's don'texploit or use third party programs to get an advantage.You can still have a good fight and not have to worry about having the top of the line equipment. It is less stressful, enjoyable and allows you to group with others without concern over who is what faction and just have good clean fun. You are easily able to roleplay as a solo character or within a group.
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse! 
"As mentioned earlier, some people play this game to roleplay and it is very true that few PvPers are real role players.
You don't fight in PvP to lose and in order to at least have a shot at winning it means you need to have almost the best of everything. I PvP all the time, and without a doubt being a good PvP player relies greatly on your items and your bank account.A casual player may not have the time, or the desire to shop for the best just so they can have a shot. You can be wound griefed, insulted and generally have your life made a living hell by another person. There are also exploits and other tricks that can make an honest player at a horrid disadvantage. PvP is stressful and contains too much one-upmanship to appeal to many gamers.
PvE works on certain mechanics that makes the opponent predictable and normally able to be defeated.The NPC's don'texploit or use third party programs to get an advantage.You can still have a good fight and not have to worry about having the top of the line equipment. It is less stressful, enjoyable and allows you to group with others without concern over who is what faction and just have good clean fun. You are easily able to roleplay as a solo character or within a group."
Im sorry, but I think your entire point is nulled do to the fact that there will bea major resructering of how combat works. They are trying to keep PvP from doing this. You are basing you opinions of PvP on the current why combat works and saying no to an idea based on facts that will change before this idea will be implemented. PvP wont be about the best armor buffs and stun guns anymore.
We dont know the numbers yet, what we have to do at this point is argue about the CONCEPTS. The concept of a player bounty is exactly what this game needs. You cant get bogged down in, "well they are uber and I will have no chance" because by then you have no idea how uber uber will be. Let the devs worry abou the numbers, that is thier job. We have been givin the chance to worry about the concepts, and we wasted 30 pages on "PvPers are different than PvEers".
Player bounties are the way to go, and THAT is what is going to save this game, not Jedi, not chef, not Image Designer, it will be player bounties.