Smuggler Archive

Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)

icutyou
Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:29 am
#53

I'm all for having sliced goods add to visibility. It would definetly add to immersion if I was put on the BH boards after being caught several times with illegal goods.

I read about people saying they don't want to be forced into pvp. An idea to stop that would be something that the npc says to you while scanning. If they find something illegal on you for the first time, they'll fine you and verbally say something like "Stop this and don't do it again." Kind of like a slap on the hand.

Now if you're getting caught time after time after time, there should be something the npc says that states "Next time you do this, you're being put on the BH terms." Obviously they wont say that exactly, but something very similar so the player understands that they're in deep poodoo.

You also have to think about how often scans even work. I've been scanned 5-6 times now and fled from another 2-3 before they could scan me. That's a total of around 7-9 scans since the crackdown was put in. Each and every time, I had a fully sliced set of armor and 2-5 sliced weapons on me. I was never found with illegal goods. Perhaps I'm lucky, perhaps the scan rolls are messed up, or perhaps it's just not that hard to get caught. It's not like you will be caught each and every time and put on the boards immediately.

Again, player bounties due to visibility would be great for immersion and add that "danger around every corner" feel that is true to Star Wars. I personally think it would be fun to have to watch my back all the time, but there needs to be warning messages for those who don't want to be forced into pvp. Perhaps let players pay fines to whatever authority to lower visibility or just let it decay over time.



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TeeBee
Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:33 am
#54







Summary 1: The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.


Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:


  • Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.

  • CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.

The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.




You need high rewards for non-pvp players as well, by limiting high end rewards (items) to one type of player you tie down the economy in those items. How about failing a critical mission for non-pvps gives a temporary skill loss, as well as faction penalties etc ? Perhaps a 1 hour loss of feign death and last ditch or perhaps the loss of high end slicing, failing the mission means you are below smuggler standards and this is a 1hr 'retraining' scheme (for the continuity guys).




------------------------------------------------------------------
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LekoDroka
Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:40 am
#55

After playing the jedi revamp, and digging myself out of XP holes earned by dying, I've realized that item decay and a few wounds as the only penalties for death, is just not reasonable. XP loss is much more appropriate. Then perhaps people would take fighting more seriously, and think for a second before engaging everything that moves.


Please consider building XP loss into your list of penalties to draw from, GreenMarine.


Thanks,

Leko
Southwick
Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:47 am
#56






sce33 wrote:



Summary 2:


Just a thought on the penality and reward system. First off i think that while st's should be and are doing random serches, i think probots should be doing the majority of the work. I think they should be a very active unattackable part of the game. Not uncommon to see 15-20 floating around large commercial areas and through out the planet. I think in my time on adventure planet i have ran into a probot once.


As for your benifit reward system i suggest a real "under world" when players can earn names for them selfs by suscessful missions, or counter BH attacks and become real world famous smugglers. Similar to a ladder system on D2 where the most sucessful smuggler can demand higher prices and negioate further based soley onhis/her rep. Smuggler could compete for player or npc contracts and death by either npc or Bh woul greatly effect this ladder system. And you could even add bonus tothe higest lvls of players on the ladder system. ie... greater suscess when expermenting on spices, higher or better avrage quality slices. ect...


This would create a real under world feel, players would seek out the most experincedsmugglers to do there dirty work and would create great competintionin the smuggler community. cause lets face it, if your not smuggling it, someone else will. I doubt solo was friends with any of his rivials.


Message Edited by sce33 on 06-22-2004 12:05 AM





Amen!

I know us bh's have wanted something like this for a long time. This would compliment greatly both the bh and smuggler system since many of us wouldlike tosee a faction system that relates to our profession.



Where life had no value,
Death, sometimes had its price.
That is why the Bounty Killers appeared.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - -- - - -- -- - - -- -- - -- -
MAKE DROIDS WORK OR THIS IS ALL POINTLESS.
FIX THE WEAPON SWITCH
MOVE JEDI HUNTING TO STALKER RANK
GIVE MBH A SIGNIFICANT BOOST TO PLAYER TRACKING(SO THEY CAN BE MBH)
Bamsee
Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:23 am
#57




Summary 1: The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.


Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:


  • Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
  • CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.

The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.


What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.



I have no problems with Smuggler having as part of the class PVP content overall. But I cannot agree to this unless we as a class can be told that when Dirty Fighting is brought around for reworking that Smuggler will have fighting styles (along with Slicing tree'sBH terminals) that are to be used to escape combat. Smugglers as a class as they stand now have no chance fighting (which they should not) or simply to escape which we should as we have been told time and time again that Smuggler fighting skills are based on. If this is not done then we will not be in true form as a Smuggler class. We will become Rifleman who smuggles, TKA whom can smuggle, a Fencer who dabbles with smuggling for fun. Smuggler as a profession is a business. This business is dangerous due to the what the job does, movement of illegal items to a destination. As such this is were our fighting skills come into play. As long as the Smuggler class has their own skillsfor escaping (not fighting since we should not ever as a class be able to take out a BH, at least any BH other then a total amatuer) and all templates from the businesssavey to the combat heavy fighters can play all forms of their class, including PVP then this solution is good.




Summary 2: The second major issue revolved around the punishments for being caught with contraband:


  1. Some players feel that dying isn't enough of a punishment.
  2. Some players recommended a faction hit.
  3. Some players feel that storm troopers are too weak.
  4. Players don't like that only storm troopers scan.

Solution: The solution obviously has several parts. We need to discuss more what the punishments should be. There are a few types of punishment that we can draw from:



  • Loss of GCW faction.
  • Loss of NPC faction.
  • Combat & risk of death.
  • Confiscation of the illegal goods.

One possibility might be to make it so that the scanning NPC isn't the NPC that attacks. Instead he "calls for backup" and the backup is relative to the player's level. This brings up the possibility of a group of players using a low level smuggler to spawn lower level faction targets. Thesolution to stopping faction farming of scan spawned NPCs is to prevent them from giving GCW faction. There are many other legitimate ways to gain faction. Even if it seems inconsistant, it does make somesense that the Rebels aren't necessarily going to reward a player for killing troopers just doing their job.


This also means that high level smugglers would be dealing with security forces tougher than your average Stormtrooper.


It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory? They aren't going to like spice abuse much either. Rebel commanders could then have some immunity from scans in their home regions. Naboo's Royal Security Force (a neutral faction) might also scan and have their own forces to deal with violators.



As a whole this is already pretty well detailed. Yes, Imperial forces should be doing scans but along with all other factions. This inculsing Rebellion, all planetary security forces, and evenif your in a heavy criminal/thug faction controled area their groups checking you out also.


Personally I do not think any of these forces should give any type of factional reward that can be used to buy other things (such as it is now Imperial and Rebel forces throughout the static points from cities to bases are simply farmed). If this format was removed from the game then there would be no point in farming and would void doing it for any other reason simply to do it.


The loss of Illegal goods if you are killed from PVP or NPC should be in place. That as just stated includes contraband items you have stolen, hence why a BH was sent out foryour hide. Though on a side note, BH's shouldNOT be able to retrieve these items to sell they should simply bedestroyed unless bounties could then be places on BH's.



Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.


Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.


This is an issue I need to think about more before I develop a complete opinion



Their should be punishments for illegal goods, why have them "illegal" if not??? This is like giving the kid acookiee jar then tellingthe child you can only have one! This will in part make players choose how they act in the galaxy and the GCW at large. If it's more dangerous for such items then they will have to face the question, should I to make myself better or shouldn't I? This will in a small way make combat in all formats more dynamic due to the players havingto actually make a choice. To be better at PVE or PVP or to not have such items illegally modified to improve themselves. This is definately going to be a heated debat with Slicing comes around to be discussed but this also has importance to this line of questioning. To help avoid players having illegal items that they do not care for as much, these items need to be sliced to the customers request (ex: spd, dmg, enc, eff, and whatever else we get to slice) Would you run around taking chances with an item(s) that you didn't care to have in the first place? To avoid going into this debate to much, give us this ability.




I support server merging of some sort for the betterment and longevity of the game and it's player community!
Iniaes
Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:24 am
#58


The way I see it, the ONLY commodity in this game is time.


Say I want to buy a new DE-10, at the cost of 1 million. That 1 million doesn't really mean anything other than time invested. Maybe I spent a week harvesting some nice steel and sold it off. Maybe I ran destroy missions for a few hours. Maybe I did rinky delivery missions in Anchorhead for 3 months straight. In the end they all translate to the same 1 million, and the same DE-10 (which I trade for the time invested by the person that looted the components, and the smith that crafted the item). Anyone can earn any amount of credits / faction / exp if they're willing to put in the time.


So whatever punishment you get, in the end it translates back to time. Time getting healed and rebuffed after death (and the time for earning the credits associated with tips and buffs). Time earning lost faction. Time earning lost exp. Time, time, time.


This is why I suggested the travel restrictions. I didn't mean being completely stuck somewhere, but rather having to have to engage theassistance of another smuggler. Or having to fight through them. It's just a time investment more interesting than running missions over and over to get back to the point you were at before the punishment.


Now say instead I'm given the DE-10 to smuggle. I decide to keep it, at my own peril. The punishment, whatever it is, has to be comparable to the time it would take me to earn that 1 million. Not necessarily 1:1, otherwise there wouldn't be any point... but it has to be severe enough for me to think twice. Again, if the harsh punishments take the fun away then don't put yourself in the position of getting punished. Make the delivery, or don't take the mission. For me, the fun would be in the risk that something really bad could happen.
Bamsee
Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:30 am
#59


I like the splitting up you didhere.


Willwe have to cheat the supplier in order to get the rare components? I would like to think I could at least be *somewhat* honest and be rewarded with them. A few of the components for succeeding, but you have the option to take more if you wish to face their wrath? Sure they may give me oneor twopairs of hot pants with the chewbaccadesignthat was part of their thanks for completing the mission. Hopefully they wont notice the four others I took from the shipment...


I would like to see a way to get the entire player base on those bounty hunter terminals. I don't know if carrying illegal items is enough justification to raise visibility. We currently have underworld being vastly unuseable by neutral smugglers. I'd hate for them to find two more of their skill trees largely unuseable as they had no wish to participate in PvP. It would be rather silly that they could slice items and craft spice all day long, but not be able to use the items unless they wanted to risk a PVP consequence.


Personally I feel that the best way to get other players on the terminals has been through GCW involvement. Whenever a player is involved in a GCW battle, for every battle won, they increase their sides faction, lose faction from the opposing side, and gain in visibility. I don't think people could say that the player did not consent to pvp as a consequence that way. It's just one more trigger in normal PVP on victory/defeat. It sounds pretty easy to do I would think.


/em Beats the crud out of Caylin for using such a nasty color to read! It's 8am, I shouldn notbe concentrating this hard yet in the morning!



I support server merging of some sort for the betterment and longevity of the game and it's player community!
DRWolfe
Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:53 am
#60

GreenMarine, thank you once again for your efforts.

In my opinion, your summaries and solutions are right on track.



Renn JeretuJoraan Stormwing
Elder SmuggleruElder Jedi
Smugglers' AllianceuArkon's Havoc Squadron
Eclipse - Dark Lotus Ninja

RozhlokLightningskull
Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:54 am
#61

GM:


I like the idea of two different types of missions for smugglers. Normal missions for PvE smugglers and more robust, riskier missions for PvP missions. Seems to fit within the framework for SWG rules of PvP engagement.


As for punishment for having a bounty collected on your head I would suggest massive NPC faction loss for the faction that put a bounty on your head. This way the smuggler would have to work their way back into the good graces of the organization to have the ability to take another high risk mission. Then maybe you could do the same thing for us BHs if we fail. Maybe you can only take bounty missions for factions your in good with. If you fail you take a faction hit. This would also give us a reason to use a smuggler to buy faction points for other underground organizations. So we can take missions for every organization.


To address visibility for non-smugglers I would say allow visibility to start to add up once someone reaches a certain rank in their faction. I don't know what the GCW revamp holds. But, I imagine the devs will be coming out with a system similar to the Jedi elder game where when you reach a certain rank you'll be 24/7 overt and PvP. Allow those players to gain visiblity by using illegal goods and doing things like wiping out STs in NPC cities. Since they have already agreed to 24/7 overt and PvP then the visiblity shouldn't bother them. Its my guess those are the type of people that would enjoy fighting off the occasional BH.


Good job so far GM! Keep up the good work. I'm real excited about this revamp and I'll probably never be a smuggler.






/+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++\
| Razhlok Lightningskull: Master Bounty Hunter ~ Master Rifleman ~ Alliance Pilot -- Wanderhome Galaxy |
| Lynsana Jantal: Teräs Käsi Master ~ Master Swordswoman ~ Privateer -- Bria Galaxy |
\+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/

Caed
Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:55 am
#62


Some ideas (apologies if they've been mentioned):


What about the idea of "laying low" to lower visibility over time?


Basically the idea would be that, assuming a smuggler does nothing to generate additional visibility in the meantime, visibility would gradually decrease (eventually dropping the smuggler from BH terminals).


The timeframe would have to be significant (possibly based on the level of visibility?), but I'd suggest having it based on "in-game" time rather than RL time (I'm sure the devs wouldn't want to encourage people to stay logged off while they "lay low").


Also, smugglers would be allowed to try to slice BH terminals to remove themselves from the terminal once every 24 hours RL time or 6-8 hours in-game time or so. If they fail, they would gain additional visibility.


-Kade Goldha

Rebel Smuggler/Pistoleer

"If you can't outrun 'em, outgun 'em!"
robpro
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:04 am
#63

This is going to be awsome. It all sounds great to me.


I only wish there was a option in the options screen you would be able to check if you agreed to PvP and once checked you could only uncheck it after a certain amount of time to allow visibility to clear.


Or if there were a 3rd faction. A Crime Faction that anyone could be part of including imp or rebel but nobody would be able to tell if you were part of and joining this faction would be the same as agreeing to PvP caused by high visibilitydo to illegal contraband


As a Master Bounty Hunter i would really like to have someone chasing me for a change. I know my visibiltiy would allways be high being that i carry 12 sliced weapons, sliced armor, and a case of moun and pixie at all times. and i dont think i could do my job if i didnt have all illegal equipment and spice. and if the spice's get better you better believe i will buy them too



------------ VOID ------------
------------ Cron ------------ Faction ------------ Rcon ------------
------------ Vakee ------------ Mercenary ------------ Kavee ------------
------------ Dcon ------------ Support ------------ Xcon ------------
------------ Shadowfire ------------
EEMAN
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:05 am
#64


Great ideas GreenMarine.


NPC Bounties: One of your first responders pointed out that NPC bounties wouldn't make you scared enough to really 'feel' the smuggling system. I believe I have a solution to that (game mechanics permitting). When a player becomes eligible for a NPC bounty make that a 1 or 2 week 'event'. He will be hunted by NPC for two weeks before they finally give up on him. If you rip off Jabba he sends his BH's after you. If after 3 or 4 of his BH's get killed he deploys Boba Fett onto you (Lady Valarian would have her own high level BH etc). Since Boba's skills, resists, and stats are unknown currently there is no reason why he can't be as tough or tougher than a nova trooper. These type hunters should really have a full gauntlet of attacks at their disposalespecially as resourceful as boba fett is.Heck you dont even have to give him 300k hams if you merely account for his agility and use of jetpack tacticts to lower his to-hit deeeeep into the negative intigers. I also think that when the player is unbuffed he be even more 'attactive' to NPC bounty hunters than when buffed. Perhaps when a players buffs run out multiple NPC's that 'have been shadowing him' suddenly make their move.


PC Bounties: I REALLY liked the idea one poster mentioned about bribes. In Ep4 Greedo said "if you have the money give it to me and I'll pretend I never saw you." The bounty hunters should be given a couple options on their mission in their datapad.


1) Unable to find - this option being slightly different than cancelling a mission. If the BH accepts a bribethat he never saw him this would make droids unable to track the player for 24hrs on that planet. If the smuggler jumps planets or the 24hr timer runs out he can then be tracked on that planet again. To ensure that the BH actually presses the right button perhaps instead incorporate the secure trade window so that if the mission is in the trade window pre-set to 'unable to find',and both parties accept the trade, the BH loses the mission, gains his credits, and the smuggler then gets a 24hr hideout on said planet.


2) I killed the mark - This option is much more risky to the BH. Again this should somehow incorporate the trade window as in #1. However, for the following 48hours, any BH that 'recognises' the smuggler will result in raising the original BH's visibility meter significantly so that he also runs the risk of finding himself on the terminals. Afterall, lying about taking down a mark and then being caught would peeve Jabba off just as much as any other means of ripping him off.The best part is we dont have to re-discuss the PVE vs PVP for the BH being the mark since the mere act of taking a PC bounty is volunteering to PVP andimmune to arguements of forced pvp.


Contraband/Illegal Goods: I think that for violations of illegal goods this merely use the NPC BH system. Every violation raises your visibility meter slightly proportional to the level of severity. Even if you were unlucky enough to get scanned4 times in one day and found with the goods this probably shouldnt be enough to trigger a mission. Perhaps after 10 violations the player finds himself on a terminal so as to not over-due it for those less interested in the smuggler system. Instead of thugs and boba fett being the hunters in this case, perhaps the local security forces have their own elite soldiers (nova for imperial territories etc). Still keep the '1 or 2 week event' aspect unless the player does infact die to the hands of the 'enforcer'. This prevents forced PVP but still adds an element of danger to the system.



Omosack
Master Weaponsmith
Master Shipwright
Better Homes and Guns - in the Chilastra Galaxy

- It's time the devs end the bitter fighting by giving the community a Non Jedi server. We have a few servers with TINY populations that could be changed to this ruleset. I support this idea because it punishes noone. - You can support it too. Click Here!
Kade_Deveron
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:07 am
#65

It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory?


Now this part of the post really caught my attention. Why? Because currently we dont have an factional territorial control! I love the idea of all factions doing scans, based on territorial control, and I really hope we see this come into play in the game!



-----------------------------
Khade Deveron

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