Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
Summary 1: The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.
Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:
- Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
- CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.
The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.
What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.
I like the splitting up you didhere.
Willwe have to cheat the supplier in order to get the rare components? I would like to think I could at least be *somewhat* honest and be rewarded with them. A few of the components for succeeding, but you have the option to take more if you wish to face their wrath? Sure they may give me oneor twopairs of hot pants with the chewbaccadesignthat was part of their thanks for completing the mission. Hopefully they wont notice the four others I took from the shipment...
It would be nice too see it possibly work out where the missions could even possibly be the same but as you suggested instead of just taking what they offered for my delivery (PvE) I decided to skim more from the supply (PvP). This way you are not punishing either playerstyle and yet you are giving those that want to take a bigger risk to gain more from each mission with the possiblity of getting visibility and PC BH Mark.
I would like to see a way to get the entire player base on those bounty hunter terminals. I don't know if carrying illegal items is enough justification to raise visibility. We currently have underworld being vastly unuseable by neutral smugglers. I'd hate for them to find two more of their skill trees largely unuseable as they had no wish to participate in PvP. It would be rather silly that they could slice items and craft spice all day long, but not be able to use the items unless they wanted to risk a PVP consequence.
I completely agree here, and I posted somewhere else an idea of not altering what we already had in the game as highly illegel (visiblity items) but introducing new items that would be considered highly illegal. You accomplish several things this way, the biggest is not creating an atmosphere were the playerbase believes they are getting a huge nerf or penalty for doing nothing more then they have for a year now. And it also adds in other options for Smugglers to do (not sure what can be added, I am sure others can come up with some good suggestions).
Personally I feel that the best way to get other players on the terminals has been through GCW involvement. Whenever a player is involved in a GCW battle, for every battle won, they increase their sides faction, lose faction from the opposing side, and gain in visibility. I don't think people could say that the player did not consent to pvp as a consequence that way. It's just one more trigger in normal PVP on victory/defeat. It sounds pretty easy to do I would think.
This makes so much sense it seems stupid not to even be implimented yet. The game already has a clear and distinctive way for players to say "Hey I want to PvP" and yet it seems to not be widely used in other parts of the game.
Military class sounds interesting. In the stories Han Solo had several military grade improvements installed on the Falcon, I'd like to see the ability to do the same with my ship in the future. He was always cautious of having his ship looked at too closely by the authorities even when he wasn't smuggling, if I remember right
I believe this ties into what I was saying about new items that are added could be classed has highly illegal and keep everyone happy. As a neutral smuggler (which is what I play) I would not have the need for "military class upgrades" on my YT-1300... I could live with just the normal weapons or quasi-illegal upgrades. But those that want the absolute best could with visiblity. This makes sense
Summary 2: The second major issue revolved around the punishments for being caught with contraband:
- Some players feel that dying isn't enough of a punishment.
- Some players recommended a faction hit.
- Some players feel that storm troopers are too weak.
- Players don't like that only storm troopers scan.
- Agreed, death isn't much of a punishment. Time sinks are though. An impound lot or something equally suitable as a deterrant. They aren't prevented from having the item, it's just a major inconvenience if they get caught.
- Faction hits don't mean much, unless they were massive (As in a thousand or more) as far as GCW factions go. If the factions are more NPC oriented, I wonder what difference it would make? Currently I don't have to worry about my faction much at all.
- How weak will they be after the combat balance? /ponder
- I can agree with that. I'd love to see corsec and others involved with the scans.
Comment on #2: Would neutral players also experience FP hits? If so would this effect PvP elements or just PvE? Also will they be able to regain those FP's thru gameplay without declaring a faction and thus participating in PvP if they wish not? If I was able to regain my faction thru a PvE means and even if I had -5000 Imp faction I was still not able to be attacked by other faction players (PC) but only NPC then I could see this working. I mean if you get caught enough by Imps carrying contraband would it not make sense you would eventially show up poorly in their eyes. Just need a way to gain it back thru PvE means (No TEF's either).
Solution: The solution obviously has several parts. We need to discuss more what the punishments should be. There are a few types of punishment that we can draw from:
- Loss of GCW faction.
- Loss of NPC faction.
- Combat & risk of death.
- Confiscation of the illegal goods.
One possibility might be to make it so that the scanning NPC isn't the NPC that attacks. Instead he "calls for backup" and the backup is relative to the player's level. This brings up the possibility of a group of players using a low level smuggler to spawn lower level faction targets. Thesolution to stopping faction farming of scan spawned NPCs is to prevent them from giving GCW faction. There are many other legitimate ways to gain faction. Even if it seems inconsistant, it does make somesense that the Rebels aren't necessarily going to reward a player for killing troopers just doing their job.
This also means that high level smugglers would be dealing with security forces tougher than your average Stormtrooper.
It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory? They aren't going to like spice abuse much either. Rebel commanders could then have some immunity from scans in their home regions. Naboo's Royal Security Force (a neutral faction) might also scan and have their own forces to deal with violators.
Alot of this sounds great, but that last part I still have problems with. I am uncomfortable with a GCW faction getting any kind of immunity to a contraband scan. If the neutral scans were more prevalent by far than any rebel specific or imperial scan, perhaps I could agree more. I am still uncomfortable with what appears to be selling out a professions primary skill.
Well means I choose not to participate in GCW I really do not have much right to comment on this area but I do think the impire would not tolerate it anymore if it was a general or corporal.... I do recall Vader not caring who disappointed him and their rank.
Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.
Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.
This is an issue I need to think about more before I develop a complete opinion.
I agree with you completely here GreenMarine. If you want, there is a poll located within these forums where the majority of voters said they would gladly and unquestionable accept a hit to their profit if it meant having real punishments involved. I wouldn't worry about this too much.
Might just be me, but since the chef revamp and doc buff's becoming so popular... I would actually have to pay you to take a hit in my profit. Ya I have sold no spice in awhile.
Krogchoi wrote:
"This also means that high level smugglers would be dealing with security forces tougher than your average Stormtrooper."
Wrong imo. As an exemple, I am playing a Master weaponsmith/smuggler (0/4/0/4 in smuggler, just for spice and slice), ie, not the fighter type of smuggler at all. I can not defeat a stormtrooper allready, not even talking about a squad.
If I read into this correctly they would be challanging to your level but not impossible to kill. Thus even as a Master Weaponsmith/Smuggler you would still have have a chance to beat them. I noticed you lack anykind of combat.... even in the smuggler profession. Which means you would have alot tougher time but I believe the stormmies that spawn could be very weak and low level. But I am just theorizing here.
What makes the whole thing exiting is NOT the possibility of getting attacked by NPCs, but to become visible to BHs. Visibility should be the main "danger" of the missions, not the threat of a certain death coming from NPCs.
Also confiscating goods is fine as long as it is mission items. There should be NO WAY that personal weapons or armor should ever be confiscated by NPCs.
I agree 100%, I also remember back when the "Imperial Crackdown" rolled out SWG said the samething at the time... I doubt they have changed their mind. Any game that takes items you have purchased from you will only lead to huge disappointment in the general playerbase.
GreenMarine wrote:
See this link for part 1:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=96114
Part 1 reached over 1200 posts in less than a week. Clearly the smuggler & bounty hunter professions care deeply about the design of any kind of smuggling system. I'm really happy with the level of response. A lot of people who don't normally post are chiming in with their opinion and, in general, the discussion has been civil.
I want to try and distill the discussion down and start to find solutions. Here were the three big issues that turned into long discussions.
Summary 1: The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.
Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:
- Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
- CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.
The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.
What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.
Sounds AWSOME.... is there any consideration to illegal items gotten via "cheating the supplier" a hot item or stolen goods flag for a period of time?
It just seems it would be an easy means of getting rare compoenents or what have you if there was not some longer risk associated with the ill gotten gains, marking the illicit items as HOT or Flagged for a period of time (couple of days) would allow the developers some control over the rate at which these components enter the game as well as increase the player interaction, allowing smugglers to control the flow of these goods as well as be required to launder the items to lose the HOT item flag.
Items made with HOT compoenents could make the final product Hot as well, or simply prevent the ability to use a component if its still hot.
Summary 2: The second major issue revolved around the punishments for being caught with contraband:
- Some players feel that dying isn't enough of a punishment.
- Some players recommended a faction hit.
- Some players feel that storm troopers are too weak.
- Players don't like that only storm troopers scan.
Solution: The solution obviously has several parts. We need to discuss more what the punishments should be. There are a few types of punishment that we can draw from:
- Loss of GCW faction.
- Loss of NPC faction.
- Combat & risk of death.
- Confiscation of the illegal goods.
One possibility might be to make it so that the scanning NPC isn't the NPC that attacks. Instead he "calls for backup" and the backup is relative to the player's level. This brings up the possibility of a group of players using a low level smuggler to spawn lower level faction targets. Thesolution to stopping faction farming of scan spawned NPCs is to prevent them from giving GCW faction. There are many other legitimate ways to gain faction. Even if it seems inconsistant, it does make somesense that the Rebels aren't necessarily going to reward a player for killing troopers just doing their job.
This also means that high level smugglers would be dealing with security forces tougher than your average Stormtrooper.
It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory? They aren't going to like spice abuse much either. Rebel commanders could then have some immunity from scans in their home regions. Naboo's Royal Security Force (a neutral faction) might also scan and have their own forces to deal with violators.
100% agree. However the being turned OVERT part of a scan is very annoying and consider by many to be non-consensual PvP as a result of being turned overt via a scan. I request this on behalf of the players who are very concerned and upset at being turned overt with out thier consent. To go covert again a player must die and clone to a public facility or visit a recruiter and wait an hour, this is alot to ask from the casual player.
Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.
Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.
This is an issue I need to think about more before I develop a complete opinion.
At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved. In this thread, let's talk about possible solutions and compromises. Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.
With PC bounties on smugglers though, they can be assured that they would be given a different gameplay experience with every bounty. Maybe with one smuggler they would easily find and eliminate and on the next one, it would involve a chase around the galaxy before it finally culminated.
The normal / critical mission sounds like a good balance. I'd rather not just see them as two tabs on the same mission browser though. I like being able to "ask" for something more dangerous. I'm a little concerned about rare components as a reward. I'm not gonna risk my neck for a bile-soaked Rancor tooth. A Nightsister motor maybe. 
As for punishment, I don't think death or faction loss is enough. If I keep getting Jabba angry I either end up with -5000 (and it never gets worse), or I go kill a few Valarians and the problem is gone. If our bread and butter is going to be moving goods, impose travel restrictions. "Your ship has been impounded while we investigate this accusation", or "You're a flight risk. Your passport has been revoked for X amount of time". Getting stuck somewhere would be a pretty harsh punishment for me, smuggler or no.
This also adds the element of smuggling people... you hire another smuggler to get you off the planet you're stuck on. Or maybe you could risk disabling a tractor beam and fighting your way to your ship for a hot take-off and a battle with local patrol ships once you're in space.
What is exactly the problem with Pvp ? Why are some people afraid of it ?
I mean if we get 2 different kinds of missions : One where you get a risk of getting attacked and killed by NPCs (where most people are asking for strong NPCs) if you fail, and one where you risk to become a target for bounty hunters ...
Well, I'd rather get killed by the BH. Pvp death is much less penalizing than Pve, and beeing tracked by a player is much more thrilling, because the player acctualy thinks (well most of the time hehee).
A few points :
-NPCs performing scans and attacking "guilty" players should not be unbeatable. I think storm troopers as they are right now are fine. Not all smugglers are mixed with a combat profession.
-Any failure in the missions should result in making the player more visible on BH terminals. The reward for the BH should be scaled depending on the difficulty of the mission that was taken by the smuggler, but also depending on the fighting skills of the smuggler (a Master Pistoleer/Master smuggler should reward the BH a lot more than a master dancer/novice smuggler).
Maybe there should be some kind of new special faction put in game, a Contreband faction. The less you have, the more likely it is that you will show up on BH terms, and the bigger the reward will be for BH.
The only way you can loose BH faction is by succeeding in difficult contreband missions, and the only way you can get it back up is by getting killed by a BH.
But also, the lower your faction is, the bigger the reward is for the contreband missions.
The main idea is all about risk vs reward. If the smuggler chooses to live as a druglord, sure he can make big money, he will gain in reputation from the drug producers, which will be more enclined into giving him large amounts of drugs, but then the empire will be paying a lot more for it's head than for some local smuggler that sells 1 crate of Muon per week.
That's the problem. SWG is a game, and people play it to have fun, not to get harsh punishments. What is the person playing only has 1 account and get stuck on some noob planet. Then they are stuck not beeing able to play and do what they would usualy do like to go hunt with some friends ?
Not a good idea at all imo.