Smuggler Archive

Gilbert, what about the testimonies of SMUGGLERS here, who have said that it does NOT work every time? I'll introduce you to 2 Blackscale Guards in Dead Forest who will back me up on that one...I think one of them still has my ARM.

As for the movies-vs-game debate, that point is moot. If you want to get to the heart of it, REMOVE JEDI COMPLETELY until the game timeframe reaches the point where Luke opens the Jedi Academy.

It wasn't LA who pushed for Jedi, it was the PLAYER COMMUNITY. We did it to ourselves. I was around back then, and remember the NEAR CONSTANT posting, ranting, and in-game talk about 'why aren't we allowed to play Jedi? Is this star wars or not?' I usually don't defend LA, but that, in itself, is the truth.

Gilbert, you must understand that by 'fixing' something that you see as pvp-broken, you are alienating THOUSANDS of other players who do NOT even PvP! This mini-crusade that you guys are on is affecting more than just you and the BHs who use the skill. This would be like screaming NERF! On doctors because a BH got buffed before he came after you, or screaming NERF! on chef because the guy ate a bofa treat!

Is it an advantage for a BH to have Last Ditch in combat? Absolutely. Is it an advantage that Jedi can heal themselves almost fully in combat? Absolutely. Is it an advantage that you get Force Cloak and we don't, Force run and we don't, and saber throw and we don't? Absolutely. That's the beauty of ADVANTAGES. I can watch a jedi heal himself from near-death to full in combat while he whittles my health down like a maniac with a chansaw. Then, I use an ability that he wasn't expecting, and POOF! I have a CHANCE (see that, chance) to incap him...and then I can HOPEFULLY squeeze in a deathblow before he gets back up...that's not a game breaker, it's a tactic and an advantage (yes I keep using that word).

Crying "NERF" is the coward's way out. Try finding tactics that overcome it. Some jedi already have, I have seen it and experienced it (I'm not a BH, but I have duelled some Jedi so they could 'learn tactics' with my classes).

Stop calling it game-breaking, you guys are embarrassing yourselves and look like you're scared. Work around it, and be real adults and true gamers. Set an example, don't set a standard for indecency.

Before I say anything here, I want to point out that I'm not a smuggler. I'm not a Jedi, either. I'm working my way through TKA and Image Designer, to be perfectly honest. I have, however, played smuggler in the past, and live with someone who has played a smuggler (and well) since shortly after SWG launched in 2003.

If a smuggler enters a duel and does nothing but get beaten upon until they can use Last Ditch, they are not playing as intended.

Still with me?

Cool.

However, this does not mean that the special itself is overpowered.

Still with me?

Let's back up.

Last Ditch is based entirely on the concept of getting off one Last, lucky shot to end a fight. You've been getting your ass kicked, you're barely capable of standing, so you take aim, say a little prayer, and squeeze the trigger. Leia at the bunker on Endor after being shot by a Stormtrooper is a very good example of this, except for the part where she fired off two in rapid succession. They nerfed that ages ago.

Last Ditch is based on the concept of smuggler's luck. Your friend fired off five to win fights and was not incapped by her shots? *She was lucky*. I have seen LD used countless times when the person that fired it was incapped by their own shot, whether the shot connected or not.

A smuggler has a CHANCE of winning the fight. A small chance, and it might take THEM out of the fight rather than their opponent, but they have a CHANCE. It all comes down to a roll of the dice.

That is not overpowered.

Ok Gilbert, I took it upon myself to ring up a couple Jedi pals of mine...this first onewith a finished template.

I know he has M.Def, but I'm not sure what else.

We dueled twice.

First time I went for LD, missed. Veela = L

Second time, he used /avoidincap. Veela = L

Now, I'm a decent PvPer, and I just went one on one with a fully templated Jedi, and was 50% accurate with LD.

Second round of Jedi fights, with a non-finished templated Jedi:

First time he KD'd me and I wasn't able to get up in time. Veela = L

Second time I got the shot off and incapped him, but it was only for 1600 dmg after armor absorption, and I had taken his health down quite a bit before then. Veela = W

So you see, in many smugglers' experiences, it doesn't hit every time, and even if it did hit every single time, sometimes we don't get the chance to use it.

This is why I really think that it's not gamebreaking. I do agree that it is imbalanced; however, that's what LD is supposed to be, a last ditch effort to tip the scales in your favor, and possibly incapacitate someone. If I had hit LD on that second Jedi before I had gotten him halfway down, I would have been toast.

Message Edited by Ardor_SW on 05-13-2005 05:42 PM

There are different ways to get something nerfed. BHs use Last Ditch because they're running out of ways to actually complete their Jedi Bounty Missions successfully. Jedi are now being defeated by BHs using Last Ditch, and are crying for a nerf.

Jedi are losing XP.

They are calling for a nerf as a result.

I do not disagree that Last Ditch is a powerful ability, when it goes off well. I do not disagree that Last Ditch should not be something any ranged dabbler can pick up and add to their template. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly.

The main debate on the Jedi boards, however, does not seem to see it this way. They want a smuggler skill nerfed for something bounty hunters are doing, just as bounty hunters wanted (and GOT) a smuggler skill nerfed for something Jedi were doing.

I don't know about you, but that seems pretty unfair for the innocents caught in the middle (smugglers) to me.

If any discussion of changes needs to happen, and I agree that it does, it needs to happen on the Bounty Hunter forum. Not here. Smugglers are doing nothing wrong. Smugglers couldn't shoot their way out of a soggy paper bag without Last Ditch as it currently exists. (Sorry, guys. I love you dearly, but it's true.)

Smugglers should not be nerfed for something they themselves are not doing.

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Ariko_Darkwater wrote:
There are different ways to get something nerfed. BHs use Last Ditch because they're running out of ways to actually complete their Jedi Bounty Missions successfully. Jedi are now being defeated by BHs using Last Ditch, and are crying for a nerf.

Jedi are losing XP.

They are calling for a nerf as a result.

I do not disagree that Last Ditch is a powerful ability, when it goes off well. I do not disagree that Last Ditch should not be something any ranged dabbler can pick up and add to their template. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly.

The main debate on the Jedi boards, however, does not seem to see it this way. They want a smuggler skill nerfed for something bounty hunters are doing, just as bounty hunters wanted (and GOT) a smuggler skill nerfed for something Jedi were doing.

I don't know about you, but that seems pretty unfair for the innocents caught in the middle (smugglers) to me.

If any discussion of changes needs to happen, and I agree that it does, it needs to happen on the Bounty Hunter forum. Not here. Smugglers are doing nothing wrong. Smugglers couldn't shoot their way out of a soggy paper bag without Last Ditch as it currently exists. (Sorry, guys. I love you dearly, but it's true.)

Smugglers should not be nerfed for something they themselves are not doing.

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Slight correction: We can't shoot our way out before it suffocates us, though we might make decent headway, maybe. But LD'ing the bag might just get us air.Or it might collaps the bag entirely and kill us, but we're out of options anyway. :>

EDIT: What we want is simple. LEAVE US ALONE. There are other ways to fix your problem without causing problems to us or our Novices, but the bulk of the Jedi seem to not care overmuch what they do to us so long as they're not getting shot. and THAT is what truely and completely infuriates us. And we WILL not take it laying down this time after we became useless before.

Message Edited by CapnKate on 05-13-2005 08:55 PM

The main problem I've had with these threads have been that much of the evidence against Last Ditch has been based on incorrect assumptions and minimal evidence.

7 duels from the same template doesn't mean much. At the utmost, all it can prove is that, potentially, there are ways to stack abilities that prevents the downsides of LD from being as rough as they're intended. For instance, I can tell you that I've used LD a dozen or so times in PVE and PVP, and I've been incapped by it every time (and then DBed a number of times when it wasn't enough). Most every other smuggler I read about using it gets incapped by it, too. I don't know why this one person isn't getting incapped by it and why most people are, but that really seems like something that should be investigated before one even thinks about using language like "game-breaking" and "I win-button."

Furthermore, these discussions don't seem to have even begun to consider whether there are tactics available to be able to absorb a hit from LD or to prevent the smuggler from getting it off in the first place. To combine that with immediate calls for nerfing, combined with that inflammatory language, and all based on a handful of insubstantial tests--that's unfair to the smuggler community and a dangerous practice in general. At the very least, it makes it hard to have a civil discussion that could result in a reasonable resolution.

Those who have argued against Last Ditch may potentially have a point, but if they do, it's so far been buried by overwhelming language and underwhelming evidence.

Message Edited by TomoRainer on 05-13-2005 06:34 PM

Why is LD even in a debate for being nerfed?

This is a serious question, I have never played as a Bounty Hunter vs. a Jedi, but it is my understanding that Bounty Hunter gets first strike. To start the combat with LD would actually be very much in the Jedi's favor - unless the BH doesn't open with LD which means it's not a 1 hit incap...

We're talking about smugglers special, who use pistols and must stay within KD range to pull off a single attempt luck-of-the-draw special, right? If the problem is with using the special from outside the KD range because the opponent is using a rifle, isn't the problem infact how the specials are working across the baord, not just this one special?

Is the problem that a combatspecial might actually be useful to beata Jedi's healing output or defense? Is this the only point they have to stand on?

Irarely even PVP, but I really hate flat out whining that nerfs other classes (PVE included)just because they actually lose once in a while to another player. (And from my own personal standpoint, unless you're a Jedi/BH, most people are PVE now days so this isn't just a PVP issue.) I haven't checked other combat forums, but more than likely I'm betting this is only an issue on BH/Jedi forums - and now the Smuggler forums...

- Cooter, Scylla (Master Shipwright/Smuggler)

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Ardor_SW wrote:

I understand why smugglers are angry, but instead of some smuggler calling jedi names on the jedi forum or other things a discussion among the smugglers should bemade, how to prevent the "abuse" of LD.

if a viable solution can be found, wes will surely present it to the devs.

I just consider it silly that people are getting angry, bitching and moaning in forum and whatelse instead of trying to find a workable solution.

a skill that can be abused and will get abused will for sure get addressed by the devs, u still have the chance to get itresolved positively though.

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Since it's obvious that the Jedi will get their way we are discussing possible solutions that won't hit us as hard as otherwise, but that doesn't change that there are certain misconceptions about the overall power of Jedi in relation to other professions and certain abilities (read: Last Ditch) on the Jedi forums that we won't just swallow.

A workable solution for Jedi isn't necessarily a workable solution for the Smuggler community. And I for once find it funny that the highlighted section comes from a Jedi player. You are the ones bitching and crying until you get your uber status. And the powers that be actually listen to you. Now don't complain if someone else also tries it that way.

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Gilbert45 wrote:

I will have you know that I from the very beginning was an ardent advocate for making jedi a regular combat class that was just as easily attainable as any other combat profession. They would ofcourse have some force skills, but overall they would be equal to, say, a carbineer or whatever. Anyway...I digress.

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But, since you didn't get your way of having Jedi playing as mere mortals, you're now in favor of master healers having a rez skill, no? Master healer, rez ability?

Message Edited by JenniferAmidala on 05-13-2005 10:16 PM