Smuggler Archive
Thread: Ranger gets Smuggler Update
Rissen wrote:
sorry to disagree but just because we don't see Han stealing doesn't mean all smugglers would have been theives at times. Yes primarily they smuggle but they are smuggling illegal goods or people and are willing to get into scuffles with authorities and other rogues...theyARE rogues and would likely have had a jaded past which likely would have began as a youth picking pockets or such.
Han also we have to remember is the dashing swashbuckler hero not your ordinary smuggler but one with a heart and some morales. I am thinking not all of Jabba, Nym, and Lady Valerians associates would be so heroic.
Having the ability and using it are two diferent things.
You dont really get it do you?
For your edification here are some Ranger units in the Star wars universe (some are missing such as the Imperial sector rangers as it isnt an exhaustive list). And remember rangers in star wars are known sometimes as commandos, whereas commandos in SWG are heavy weapons experts, not commandos (dont ask me why!)
You need examples of a Star Wars Ranger?
676th Light Support Scouts
this Imperial unit was best known as a holding tank for murderers, thieves, cowards, and the less intelligent and undisciplined members of the Imperial infantry. It was said that the 676th were "the first to arrive, and the first to die."
Blizzard Force
a division of Imperial Cold Assault stormtroopers, they are trained to work in tandem with AT-AT assault vehicles. Blizzard Force was dispatched to Hoth to rout the Alliance base there during the Galactic Civil War.
D812
this Alliance scouting and reconnaissance team was led by Mils Gessak, and searched for forward outposts during the Galactic Civil War
Delta Team
this Alliance Special Forces unit was named for Scandium Team's Delta Unit.
Guile Company
this New Republic infiltration force was developed by Major Showolter. He hoped to recruit Clawdites and other polymorphic species to join the Guile Company team, in an effort to infiltrate Yuuzhan Vong units.
Imperial Storm Commandos
this elite group of stormtroopers was chosen from various categories and put together as a commando group. Their primary mission was to eradicate Alliance opposition with little or no support, in hard to reach areas. Crix Madine was placed in command of the first unit of Storm Commandos by Grand Moff Tanniel, shortly after the Battle of Yavin
Infiltrators
one of the most elite sections of the Alliance's Special Forces division, Infiltrators used stealth and cunning to get into Imperial installations prior to an actual assault. They gathered intelligence and "softened up" any Imperial resistance, before the main ground force attacked. They were considered the 5th Regiment of the SpecForces of the Alliance.
Infiltrators
this group of Alliance special forces operatives was sent in to infiltrate heavily-guarded areas before the main assault force could advance. They assisted in bringing down perimeter defense and allowed the main force an easier access to a target. The Infiltrators were disbanded shortly after the Battle of Endor. Many members of the Infiltrators took positions with Red Team Five.
Katarn Commandos
the crack squadron of guerilla warriors who were teamed with the former mercenary Kyle Katarn during the early days of the Galactic Civil War. When Katarn retired from active duty, Page rose from the ranks to become the leader of the group. Their name changed to Page's Commandos, but their expertise didn't change. Their insignia was formed from the seal of the New Republic, with a stylized katarn beast leaping across and in front of it.
NightWhispers
this was the name used by one of the Empire's most elite stormtrooper units. A unit of the Storm Commandos, they were sent into the field whenever incredible stealth was required to gain access to an enemy target.
Nishr Taskforce
this Alliance Special Forces unit was made up of a pair of Wilderness Fighter platoons and a Pathfinder platoon. They were the first group to scout the planet Nishr, which eventually became their home base. A SpecOps mission group and an Intelligence agent were attached to the taskforce for unusual support. The taskforce was under the command of Fisk Csino during the Galactic Civil War. Their mission was defined after the original scouting party discovered the large Imperial presence on the planet. Their commanding officers deemed it important for them to remain on Nishr and harass the Imperial garrison, in an effort to draw reinforcement to the planet from other worlds. This would have allowed the Alliance to promote other actions during a lull in Imperial forces elsewhere. The mission was poorly planned, but forged moderate success over the years.
Red Team Five
one of the New Republic's best-kept secrets, Red Team Five was a group of highly-skilled Special Forces infiltration experts. They were sent in to scout out a target location and eliminate any perimeter defenses prior to a full-scale operation. Many of the group's agents were former members of the Alliance's Infiltrator team, including Jai Raventhorn. All but Raventhorn were killed in a raid on the Imperial garrison on Zelos II, shortly after the Battle of Endor. Raventhorn was imprisoned at the garrison and brutally interrogated before being rescued by Platt Okeefe and Tru'eb Cholakk.
Republic Special Tactics Force
this elite military unit was part of the Old Republic's armed forces, and was the precursor of the Special Forces units of both the Alliance and the Empire.
Special Bakuran Troops
this branch of the Bakuran armed forces was trained for special operations.
Storm Commandos
this was a group of Imperial soldiers trained to speciallize in guerilla warfare. They were generally referred to as Shadowtroopers, and were initially trained by Crix Madine. Despite the fact that Madine himself defected to the Alliance, the Empire maintained the Storm Commandos because of the niche they filled in the overall Imperial war machine. Storm Commandos were distinguished by their black armor, which was modeled after that of a standard scout trooper. Up to forty Storm Commandos worked as a single unit, divided into four groups per team: standard commandos; assault troops trained for vehicle combat and artillery; soldiers who were experts at sabotage, demolitions and stealth; and a tech team devoted to keeping gear functioning or jury-rigging makeshift supplies.
Task Force Shen
this top-secret Alliance Special Forces unit was called upon to execute elite, silent missions throughout the Mid Rim during the Galactic Civil War. The unit was made up of two Infiltrator platoons, a Pathfinder platoon, and two squads of technicians. It was led by Major Mart Stevez, and was often "loaned" to the Alliance's Intelligence division in order to acquire sensitive data.
Team Razor
this was an Alliance Special Forces Pathfinder unit, best known for setting up Outpost Cinder during the Galactic Civil War.
Trianii Rangers
an elite army of Trianii which is a highly-skilled legion of law enforcement officials. They are excellent marksmen, and can move with incredible stealth
and last but not least for your request of star wars examples of rangers and the one that most closely resembles our profession's skills............
Antarian Rangers
a para-military group based on several planets, the Antarian Rangers were formed by Marus Timpel and Kaskutal on Antar 4, some 600 years before the Battle of Yavin. The mission of the Antarian Rangers was simply to assist and aid the Jedi Knights in any way possible, although they were most often employed as front-line troops in battlezones. They were trained to be masters of any environment, in order to meet the various challenges assigned to them. The Jedi Council refused to comment on their position toward the Antarian Rangers, although they allowed it to continute to grow and expand over the years. Many individual Jedi valued their assistance and dedication, especially in situations where military force was needed. In the coming centuries, as the Jedi Order became more conservative and insular, they began to turn away from the use of separate organizations like the Antarian Rangers. This meant that the amount of work available to the Rangers began to diminish, and the organization was forced to drastically reduce its manpower. During the Clone Wars, the Antarian Rangers were able to briefly expand their efforts in support of the Jedi involvement in the war. Unfortunately, whole groups of Antarian Rangers were killed off, and many of the survivors scattered and went underground. Those that remained loyal to the Jedi found themselves hunted down as part of Emperor Palpatine's Jedi Purge, further reducing the organization's size and scope. Only a few groups managed to survive the Galactic Civil War, but they were openly sought out by Jedi Master Luke Skywalker. In the years following the Battle of Endor, the organization grew slowly, but proved to be invaluable during the formation and protection of the Great River during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion of the galaxy
I hope that clears up any misunderstandings of why rangers are becoming starwars rangers for our smuggly friends. i for one cant wait until you get your smuggling missions, and I can track you and lift those items.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 09-19-2005 08:50 AM
Rissen wrote:
ok first of all calm down i didn't attack you i disagreed with the perception that smugglers aren't rogues. I would appreciate an adult discussion not a angry reply.
Now as i said there i disagree that smugglers aren't rogues are above stealing. I didn't say strip the ability from ranger nor did i say get rid of contraband and possible contraband missions.
I have wanted to "smuggle" from day one but I also think having a steal ability especially from npc's would be a nice add on as well(we can have more than one viable ability i know its a new concept)
now that said I will move on to the post about what a ranger is in star wars and post this:
The Antarian Rangers were founded some 600 years before the Clone Wars and continued to flourish up until the rise of the Empire. On the planet Antar 4, home of the Gotal species, a Coruscant-born Human Jedi Knight named Marus Timpel was performing routine duties that brought him into contact with a being who was turned down for Jedi training. Kaskutal, a Gotal with limited Force sensitivity, had been turned away as a child by Timpel himself and had gone on to become a very successful and wealthy businessman specializing in trade negotiations and intercessions. The two become fast friends, and during their discussions, Timpel expressed his frustrations with the limitations his Jedi lifestyle put on his travels and available resources. Kaskutal, still harboring admiration for the Jedi despite being turned away, offered to help and raised funds and resources from donors and investors to create an organization to help alleviate those problems. This organization came to be known as the Antarian Rangers, and it soon spread beyond Antar 4 into the rest of the galaxy.
The Antarian Rangers are a natural place for those without the ability to touch the Force to turn to in fulfilling dreams of connecting with the Force. Additionally, in the days when rules on emotional attachment for the Jedi were lax, some Jedi and Antarian Rangers intermarried. As a result, Jedi occasionally have family, as well as ideological, ties to the Rangers. With the rise of the Empire, the Rangers were hunted as fervently as the Jedi by Lord Vader and the Inquisitors. Any discovered to be associated with the Antarian Rangers faced the same punishment as those connected with the Rebel Alliance or who harbored fugitive Jedi. Sympathizing with the Antarian Rangers can be a dangerous choice at times, and the organization requires dedication and loyalty not often found in the galaxy.
The life of an Antarian Ranger is not an easy one, and only the most dedicated and the most fit for the position thrive within the organization. Very few members of the Antarian Rangers actually earn the coveted rank of Ranger, as most become the support personnel for this elite group. This prestige class represents the true Rangers.
The Rangers are trained to be the masters of any terrain; they must be stealthy, observant, and capable if they are to assist the Jedi in the field. Upon reaching the rank of Ranger, members are typically assigned to a certain sector and, in some cases, to a particular Jedi who has requested their services. Not having a set uniform, Rangers are rewarded with a distinctive brown leather jacket reminiscent of those worn by off-duty members of sector defense force
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Rissen wrote:
ok first of all calm down i didn't attack you i disagreed with the perception that smugglers aren't rogues. I would appreciate an adult discussion not a angry reply.
Now as i said there i disagree that smugglers aren't rogues are above stealing. I didn't say strip the ability from ranger nor did i say get rid of contraband and possible contraband missions.
I have wanted to "smuggle" from day one but I also think having a steal ability especially from npc's would be a nice add on as well(we can have more than one viable ability i know its a new concept)
now that said I will move on to the post about what a ranger is in star wars and post this:
The Antarian Rangers were founded some 600 years before the Clone Wars and continued to flourish up until the rise of the Empire. On the planet Antar 4, home of the Gotal species, a Coruscant-born Human Jedi Knight named Marus Timpel was performing routine duties that brought him into contact with a being who was turned down for Jedi training. Kaskutal, a Gotal with limited Force sensitivity, had been turned away as a child by Timpel himself and had gone on to become a very successful and wealthy businessman specializing in trade negotiations and intercessions. The two become fast friends, and during their discussions, Timpel expressed his frustrations with the limitations his Jedi lifestyle put on his travels and available resources. Kaskutal, still harboring admiration for the Jedi despite being turned away, offered to help and raised funds and resources from donors and investors to create an organization to help alleviate those problems. This organization came to be known as the Antarian Rangers, and it soon spread beyond Antar 4 into the rest of the galaxy.
The Antarian Rangers are a natural place for those without the ability to touch the Force to turn to in fulfilling dreams of connecting with the Force. Additionally, in the days when rules on emotional attachment for the Jedi were lax, some Jedi and Antarian Rangers intermarried. As a result, Jedi occasionally have family, as well as ideological, ties to the Rangers. With the rise of the Empire, the Rangers were hunted as fervently as the Jedi by Lord Vader and the Inquisitors. Any discovered to be associated with the Antarian Rangers faced the same punishment as those connected with the Rebel Alliance or who harbored fugitive Jedi. Sympathizing with the Antarian Rangers can be a dangerous choice at times, and the organization requires dedication and loyalty not often found in the galaxy.
The life of an Antarian Ranger is not an easy one, and only the most dedicated and the most fit for the position thrive within the organization. Very few members of the Antarian Rangers actually earn the coveted rank of Ranger, as most become the support personnel for this elite group. This prestige class represents the true Rangers.
The Rangers are trained to be the masters of any terrain; they must be stealthy, observant, and capable if they are to assist the Jedi in the field. Upon reaching the rank of Ranger, members are typically assigned to a certain sector and, in some cases, to a particular Jedi who has requested their services. Not having a set uniform, Rangers are rewarded with a distinctive brown leather jacket reminiscent of those worn by off-duty members of sector defense force
Sory, didnt meqan to give you the impression that I was mad, its just that like commando not being a true commando but rather a heavy weapons expert (and some commandos not understanding this) in SWG, a lot of people have latched on to the word "steal" as mentioned by the devs and automatically think "lawbreaking, smugglers should do that".
It really isnt law-breaking, rogue-ish stealing we are getting. Its covert retrieval! The difference is that we are, for whatever reason (a civilian, rebel, imp, etc. mission) attempted to covertly retrieve something (information/items/blueprints) for our superriors.
The word steal is used rather erroneously here.
This important something will be carried by smugglers who will take a mission to smuggle something that is wanted by some else and, we rangers will be the ones hunting for that smuggler smuggling that important something.
Why would a smuggler be contracted to track and covertly retrieve something from somewhere/someone. Thats a Rangers job, once we are done a Smuggler will be contracted to smuggle said goods, unless another ranger isnt tracking it. Sounds good to me!
here is the devs post that hints at this.
You won't be able to PvP steal from other players when the system launches. It is supported, but content hasn't been created to make us of this capability yet. If/When the content does go in, it will probably be more in the direction of the Bounty-Hunter/Jedi relationship - where someone (a smuggler, just for instance) would consent to carrying a stealable item (some illegal spice, just for instance), knowing another player will get a mission to tryand come steal it from them. It's almost like a game of capture the flag (gotta write that one down!). You won't, however,be able to take anything from anyone's normal inventory.
For now, though - it'sstrictly a PvE ability (with the possibility of a PvP component down the line).
If the Devs called it by a different name there wouldnt be so much angst over the ability itself. Stealing implies a rogue/ scoundrel likeactivity. If they plan on stealing plans and our deliveries..they should change the name to confiscation or something to that affect.
And yes, most Smugglers are thieves ina sense; skimming of the top...well, that's stealing. Let the rangers keep that ability though, it means more content for us later.
Message Edited by VegitoX on 09-19-2005 12:35 PM
VegitoX wrote:
If the Devs called it by a different name there wouldnt be so much angst over the ability itself. Stealing implies a rogue/ scoundrel likeactivity. If they plan on stealing plans and our deliveries..they should change the name to confiscation or something to that affect.
And yes, most Smugglers are thieves ina sense; skimming of the top...well, that's stealing. Let the rangers keep that ability though, it means more content for us later.
Message Edited by VegitoX on 09-19-2005 12:35 PM
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Exactly, when Riflemen and Jedi got invisibilty (a skill we clamoured for and were told would never be introduced for a variety of reasons) we rangers were annoyed, but knew it opened the door for us to get our camo skills working properly. The devs have come out and said that rilemen and jedi where testing invisibility rules and these rules will be put into their final version with the ranger revamp.
So hopefully after we get to test our covert retreival techniques the smugglers will get to smuggle the stuff we have to go get. Unless, people complain about us getting that ability.
I think the only players you'll find opposed to the idea of Rangers having this ability are those who have not read the In Concept thread for Rangers closely. No Smuggler in his/her right mind would complain about Rangers having the steal feature..it would be counter productive to do so. Let's just hope you guys make it past the Concept stages.
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
So hopefully after we get to test our covert retreival techniques the smugglers will get to smuggle the stuff we have to go get. Unless, people complain about us getting that ability.
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
For your edification here are some Ranger units in the Star wars universe (some are missing such as the Imperial sector rangers as it isnt an exhaustive list). And remember rangers in star wars are known sometimes as commandos, whereas commandos in SWG are heavy weapons experts, not commandos (dont ask me why!)
From Rancorridor 4
here's some good stuff courtesy of Keito Tarmeh originally posted Christmas Day 2003. *6:31 am no less. Guess he got a new computer from Hannukah Claus or something.....
My point in posting this, is that I don't believe (and I have stated this often in the last 2 years ask Calc or Owen) that we were EVER intended just to be hunter's. Check this out:
Imperial Storm Commandos
this elite group of stormtroopers was chosen from various categories and put together as a commando group. Their primary mission was to eradicate Alliance opposition with little or no support, in hard to reach areas. Crix Madine was placed in command of the first unit of Storm Commandos by Grand Moff Tanniel, shortly after the Battle of Yavin
Katarn Commandos
the crack squadron of guerilla warriors who were teamed with the former mercenary Kyle Katarn during the early days of the Galactic Civil War. When Katarn retired from active duty, Page rose from the ranks to become the leader of the group. Their name changed to Page's Commandos, but their expertise didn't change. Their insignia was formed from the seal of the New Republic, with a stylized katarn beast leaping across and in front of it.
Storm Commandos
this was a group of Imperial soldiers trained to speciallize in guerilla warfare. They were generally referred to as Shadowtroopers, and were initially trained by Crix Madine. Despite the fact that Madine himself defected to the Alliance, the Empire maintained the Storm Commandos because of the niche they filled in the overall Imperial war machine. Storm Commandos were distinguished by their black armor, which was modeled after that of a standard scout trooper. Up to forty Storm Commandos worked as a single unit, divided into four groups per team: standard commandos; assault troops trained for vehicle combat and artillery; soldiers who were experts at sabotage, demolitions and stealth; and a tech team devoted to keeping gear functioning or jury-rigging makeshift supplies.
I hope that clears up any misunderstandings of why rangers are becoming starwars rangers for our smuggly friends. i for one cant wait until you get your smuggling missions, and I can track you and lift those items.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 09-19-200508:50 AM
Well actually, you've made things a little grey with these three. Surely these are examples of 'Commandos'? If not, please tell me what a Star Wars 'Commando' should do, because correct me if wrong but the Rebel 'commandos' in ROTJ were doing exactly what these Rangers are getting.
1) Smugglers should have the "steal" ability. This argument leads to
a) Are smugglers theives or businessmen?
b) what is a smugglers role?
2) Smugglers should have "stealth"
3) Rangers are not Commandos
Now let's look at this logically. First and foremost, we ALL must understand that we are only allowed 4 tiers of 4 skills per profession. Therefore, some skills we believe should be included MUST be left out so that more functional skills can be implemented. I believe that, perhaps naivley, the devs are trying to accomplish what we have all been asking for...diverse, playable professions. So we must ask ourselves, What is a smugglers role? IMHO it is someone that smuggles, and I find it near impossible to believe this point can be contested. So lets look at the Smuggler skill tree. We all know that "underworld" needs some work. Perhaps this can be tweaked so that we can "fast talk" or "schmooze" our way out of a jam. IE, we're stopped by imps for sliced weapon, we are successfully searched and we "fast talk" our way out of it.
The "slicing" skill tree is one of much contention. The most widely used arguments are "We are not Slice Monkey's" or "We aren't slicers, we're Smugglers". I for one, really like the slicing skill set. If you're a Han Solo enthusiast, you know that Solo did significant work on his prized Falcon, yet he was not a shipwrite (sp?). I believe he sliced components of that ship to increase output at the cost of safety. I also find it hard to believe that, if there was a way to do the same thing to a weapon, he wouldn't. I look at it as a very Smuggler thing to do, put profit over safety...get an edge over your competition. I say it works for me
Next is "Dirty Fighting", which I'll skip because almost NO ONE complains about it, it is our best skill set. So that brings us to "Delinquency". My belief is that smugglers don't craft spices, because if they did, they wouldn't need to work for the likes of Jabba the Hut. They would simply smuggle their own wares. So let's say they do eliminate this skill set, what do we use if for? This brings us to issues 1 and 2. I like the idea of Smugglers avoiding a fight. I would love to be on a BH terminal and have to use my wits, not my pistol, to get away. I want to use my contacts, use my YT, and Smuggle my Rogue a$$ out of harms way. This would be the skill tree for that(And if you want to argue that it should go under "Underworld", I'll agree. Name the new set "Fast Talking").
While I WHOLE HEARTEDLY AGREE that not all Smugglers are the loveable Han Solo type, I don't think that there is room in this tree to work in things like "stealing". It would be fun, but given an option, I'd rather have "Fast Talk" then "steal". If you look at it that way, there really is no constructive argument to that point. You'll just be arguing semantics. To go one step further, it has been stated that "stealing" probably isn't the most accurate title for the skill. "Confiscation" is more in line with what they intend the skill to be used for. The simple changeing of title may relieve some of the tension on both sides.
Now lets look at issue 3: "Rangers are not Commandos". CuchulainnDarklight says it best.
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Forget D+D Rangers, This is Star Wars, and in the Star Wars universe Rangers do exist. Not as woodsman types but as elite, deadly, clandestine, special forces. These include the Antarian Rangers, the Imperial Sector Rangers and many more.
Some claim that this is ANOTHER slap in the face to an already disrespected Commando profession. I believe it allows the Commando to really shine. They are the SOLE heavy-weapons specialist. They are the Marines, the Rangers are the C.I.A. Commandos need work. So do we. So do Rangers. Andonandonandon. This could, however, prove to be a perfect setup for everyone. The scenario is played out, but lets go through it again. Ranger steals plan, Smugglers smuggles plan to Squad Leader. Squad Leader leads squad of Commandos onto raid...
It's not perfect, but it's a start. So let's hope it works out, and let's play together nice
Message Edited by JakeEyes on 09-19-2005 01:56 PM
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 09-19-2005 11:11 AM
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:On the point of Commandos. SWG Commandos are NOT SW Commandos.SWG Commandos are HEAVY WEAPONS, and as such are not special forces like marines or paras or SAS.Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 09-19-200511:11 AM
Right, Commandos currently are not special forces. Neither are Marines. They are a main, and possibly THE main, fighting force of the US military. There are special forces Marines (Force Recon). Therefore, currently, you could compare IN GAME Commandos as Marines and IN DEVELOPEMENT Rangers as Force Recon.
JakeEyes wrote:
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
On the point of Commandos. SWG Commandos are NOT SW Commandos.
SWG Commandos are HEAVY WEAPONS, and as such are not special forces like marines or paras or SAS.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 09-19-200511:11 AM
Right, Commandos currently are not special forces. Neither are Marines. They are a main, and possibly THE main, fighting force of the US military. There are special forces Marines (Force Recon). Therefore, currently, you could compare IN GAME Commandos as Marines and IN DEVELOPEMENT Rangers as Force Recon.
My example was british in origin but the analogy still stands. Rangers are light, mobile, clandestine combat troops.
In game rangers = in canon rangers = special forces
In game commandos = in canon heavy weapons = heavy weapons troops