Smuggler Archive
Thread: truisms...
ana-mo-cara wrote:Okay I am saying this to the people that think han solo is some tragic hero. Where the hell is the tragedy in han solo. Thats not tragic he was a criminal that changed his ways this was not something like batman, heracles.FDR. There was no tragic event to turn han. He made a choice of conscience. He wasnt overcomeing a disadvantage.He wasnt a robin hood type of character. He wasnt smuggleing, because he had no choice.He was a criminal. Through the movies we see him as something else then where he came from. When he is a leader in the rebel alliance. So if your admireing han solo your not admireing him for being a smuggler. Your admireing him for being a soldier in a righteous cause, and his tenacity when it came to that.The devs are really right on for what a smuggler should be. Smugglers in this game are criminals. If you do not like to think of yourself playing a criminal then do not be a smuggler. Everything a smuggler does in this game is a crime. From makeing and selling drugs. To modifying weapons. If your playing a smuggler your playing a criminal.You are a drug dealer. You illegally alter weapons. You are a criminal thats why you get fined or shot for being a smuggler in possession of these items. Can we not try to say I am a tragic hero. Its like roleplaying a creature handler, and saying I am not a creature handler. I am a zoo manager. Its like saying I am a armorsmith, because I am looking to make high healed boots. Your a smuggler your a criminal your a bad guy. What is so bad about roleplaying a self serveing criminal. If you want to roleplay a nice guy there are tons of nice guy professions.
I don't think most people object to your wievpoint of Han. What most people disagree with is your wievpoint of Smugglers. I have never heard of any smugglers who made the products they were selling nor distributing it to the masses. Yes there are smugglers who might have expanded and gone into producing or distribution, but after that change they didn't continue with the actual smuggling. The reason for this is that the most risky part of the illegalities involved with smuggling is smuggling itself. The smuggling part is the most risky part of whatever illegal action you are taking... weather this be drugs, weapons, alcohol or resources from endangered animals. Killing animals in a wild reservtion has it's risks, but is nothing compared to what you risk when you are moving a truckload of ivory from Africa to China.
As for Han being a tragic hero or not, well I'll let each individual decide. I know many Americans who Admires Billy the Kid, Jesse James and you can continue with Amreican "heroes". There are even people who is considered villains in American history... or were untill recently. Geronimo was considered one of the worst villains in American history, but to some he was a hero who fought for the independence of his people. I see Han a bit like these so called American heroes. To be honest I do not find it cold blooded when he shoots Greedo... after all Greedo did say that han would come with him one way or another. To me that's the same as saying you are either coming dead or alive, standing in that situation I would have done the same.
Finally I want to say that you are judging Han upon a perception of what a smuggler is. You take the normal gunrunner or drugdealer in our world and compare it to Smugglers in Star Wars. I used to play a lot of Elite and Elite II and I see smugglers as the smugglers in that game. You are moving something from one Solar system where it's legal to another where it's illegal, thus making a huge profit. Spices as I understand it isn't really illegal in Star Wars... it's just being regulated by the empire and it's not made but gathered from spice mines. Thus smuggling is very much a way to use the government controlled monopoly of spices to make big profits on items.
Once again smuggling doesn't necessarily involve illegal goods, it can be legal goods that you are moving past the authorities and in that way avoid taxes and tariffs. Stating that doing something against the law is wrong is in my oppinion to classify ethic and moral by the law.
Sorry about the rant. Smuggling per difinition isn't the producing nor the distribution of illegal goods... it is to move illegal or leagal goods past the authorities in order to avoid detection of the goods... Wether you combine other illegal activities with Smuggling is an individual decision.
ana-mo-cara wrote:
One lets just drop the entire EU nonsense. - why cause it goes against your point of view?Sure these books are good for reading, but this stuff comes from multiple authors, and the books are not being redone over and over and over again. Till they match a specific vision, or even to be in line with pertenant facts in a universe, or franchise. I understand with just five starwars movies. Hardcore fans can go into some desperate fiending. I suppose startrek and babylon five and so on have less of an issue with this. They have alot more official material on tv and in movies. Still lets not revere EU as what the franchise is about. Unless george lucas is directly involved In a EU item directing writeing produceing or overseeing it step by step. I am not going to consider it cast in stone starwars. I merely consider it a tribute. - lol so people who follow the books are trekies huh? nice....
Once again people are trying to portray a nice guy smuggler image. - never said he was a nice guyWhich to be fair is not limited to starwars han solo. How often do you see a theif or criminal in a show or story. That is basically a bad person stealing for self gain, or killing in some iconoclastic conflict. People doing bad things made to seem affable. You can even see this in mob movies in shows. Mr tony soprano is for gunning people down running people over with cars, but hey selling drugs is bad. What the its symptamatic of wanting the rogue to be heroic. Possibly going back to robin hood.
Real smugglers are not nice guys. Underground railroad did not have smugglers. They had conductors. The american revolution had allies. The french recognized the united states as a sovereighn power in that they were not smuggleing. Not to say a number of the founding fathers were not smugglers. So lets be particular in analogy. -semantics my friend, one persons allie is another ones smuggler and one persons "conductor" is also anothers smuggler. What your saying is they were not smuggling people to safty huh? /rolleyes
The truth is few smugglers are han solo esque characters. The real smuggler is a guy paid to deliver illegal goods to a place of dispersment. Whether the smuggler sells himself or delivers another persons illegal goods. Either way the smuggler is getting paid to do a wrong thing. - make up your mind are we talking about smugglers in general or Han Solo
One other point the milenium falcon was probabally not used to run slaves. Remember from episode one most slaves get termination implants so there is no way a slave would say they were a slave. The falcon is fast small and heavily armed. Thats what a drugrunning ship is. The cargo is light. For slave transport you would probabally require a larger ship. Something more along the line of a refugee ship.
Message Edited by yimaz on 01-17-2005 11:02 AM
ana-mo-cara wrote:
Okay lets get down to brass tacks. George lucas is a business man. The movies are his babies, and he is less then enterested in the EU. This game is a prime example. With the tens of thousands of glowstick swingers, and absolutely no focus on the wars. If you gave george lucas ten million dollars yes you too could be in the limelight with your new product luke skywalker ewok lube for that special someone in your life. The guy is not afraid to plaster the franchise on anything that can sell. Hell we have all seen how episode 1 and 2 came out. Can we say overkill. Those movies are total wastelands of all the products you can sell. All designed to make more money. So when it comes to EU. I highly doubt that george lucas even cares all that much what goes in there. Since he himself probabally dosent even consider it starwars.
Once again you guys are trying to make smugglers good guys. You aint no lowly drug dealer. Oh for petes sakes yes you are. That is how the profession is designed. Plus most drug dealers smuggle as part of smuggleing. They transfer drugs from one location to their person. Then from their person to a customer. I have no idea what your idea of smuggleing it its a tedious repeditive act, and in a game where cloneing is easy and costs next to nothing exactly where is the danger.
We already got smuggler missions in the game by the way. They are just called delivery missions. Hey I stole this deliver it to such and such so he can crack the codes. You know what else novice marksman can take them. Delivery missions are smuggler missions. Look you aint going to get these zany missions you think your going to get it aint going to happen. You want an example of why. Look at all the other missions in the game. Even things like artisan and bh missions are not all that creative.
Why did han solo come back to save luke. Who the hell knows there are stories of serial killers saveing children, and rapeists commiting suicide for what they have done. Life is full of stuff like this you do not need to be a good person to get a bug over someone or something. Maybe Han got fed up with running. I am not going to go with the one good act makes you a saint nonsense. You guys can obviously take this view, because you do not need to see the wake of bodies behind han. I bet you would sing a different tune if the pilate ofthe millenium falcon were adolf hitler.
I will give you a non starwars example. The shawshank redemption. In the movie their is a guard that is a utter pos. That within the first twenty minutes of the movies. Beats a prisoner to death, because he was crying. Later on the hero of the movie does this guard a favor. After that the hero gets raped by inmates. The guard then beats the rapeist into a vegitable. Basically in the end the guard gets ratted out for the hero, and rightly so he was a bad man. Who did a good thing, maybe because he might have had one virtue say loyalty.
Does it occur to you that Han solo a drifter a con man a hussler. Might actually put a high price on friendship. Here is a man who is a criminal and acts as a criminal does. Killing stealing cheating running contraband. Yet he may have one virtue he stands by his pals. Like the guard in shawshank that dosent make him a good person. One good act dosent wipe a slate clean. That takes time. From the moment han attacks vader he is not even a smuggler anymore he is a revolutionary.
If your a smuggler your a criminal deal with it. Criminals do not get squeemish. Han certainly didnt. Do you think if han cooked up some meth he wouldnt sell it on a street corner. You think han wouldnt illegally alter a weapon for ya if you through him some money. Your a smuggler your a criminal. Your morality is lacking. Run with it be the bad guy. Everyone cannot be a good guy. Somebody has to be the bad guy or there is no story line at all.
*Ternque01 stamp of approval*
ana-mo-cara wrote:
We already got smuggler missions in the game by the way. They are just called delivery missions. Hey I stole this deliver it to such and such so he can crack the codes. You know what else novice marksman can take them. Delivery missions are smuggler missions. Look you aint going to get these zany missions you think your going to get it aint going to happen.
Ternque01 wrote:
*Ternque01 stamp of approval*
Message Edited by yimaz on 01-17-2005 12:03 PM
yimaz wrote:
ana-mo-cara wrote:
We already got smuggler missions in the game by the way. They are just called delivery missions. Hey I stole this deliver it to such and such so he can crack the codes. You know what else novice marksman can take them. Delivery missions are smuggler missions. Look you aint going to get these zany missions you think your going to get it aint going to happen.
Ternque01 wrote:
*Ternque01 stamp of approval*
Stamp of Approval Ternque01? I know you and I dont agree on many issues but really??? You agree with this? As far as the other stuff it was addressed like 50 posts ago.
Message Edited by yimaz on 01-17-2005 12:03 PM
I do agree with the above statement. To some degree, I think that the "zany" smuggler missions will be a challenge to implement. What will be left are, obviously, simplified delivery missions for master smugglers to take. These will be similar to the delivery missions that novice marksmen can take, but probably with a little more spice.
This is why I really, REALLY support a variety of smuggler mission types, that are also incredibly simple to make. If you check out Wes' thread "Underworld Discussion", he has a link to my post detailing it. Basically, create 5-6 types of smuggler missions that use a smuggler's different abilities to make it out. These might include a bank slicing or spice depot slicing mission, an intercept mission of another smuggler in order to steal his/her cargo, an assassination mission of medlesome politicians or rival criminal, if you are in bad standing with your crimeboss you can just roam from city to city killing thugs in cities to regain some respect, OR you can do the regular smuggling missions.
Some smugglers don't like these mission types, which I get direct inspiration from Grand Theft Auto, because they are too "thugish". If you guys really want one kind of mission type as a revamp and get bored, don't call me. There needs to be a healthy variety of things that a normal smuggler would do during their normal routines. They get attacked by BH's, have to murder, have to steal (even from babies), have to sell what they skim off their delivery, have to make the actual runs, and THEN they use their creativity to get money any other way you can imagine.
On the other hand, you have players who portrait the "good" smuggler - the kinda smuggler who ships goods for the Alliance or for a number of worthy causes. To these smugglers the thought of mugging, assassinating, and stealing doesn't fit into line. I don't know what to tell them. Unless smugglers can take missions from the Rebellion (etc.) directly where Admirals give them the same kinds of missions I suggest above. A Rebel smuggler might slice into Imperial weapon depots, intercept Imperial convoys in order to steal the cargo and smuggle it off planet, assassinate a figure head who is putting presure on supply lines, kill X number of Imperial shipping pilots, OR just do the regular smuggling missions.
What kills me is that these missions are the exact same thing, but with a different name. One is labeled "thugish", the other "good smuggler". In the end, they are still doing the same things and killing the same number of people.
Recapping, I suggest we implement simple, yet diverse, kinds of missions for smugglers. I pray we don't get stuck with one kind of delivery mission.
I think I might actually know you in RL, Shrendyc... If not, it's a huge coincidence. Do you live in Indy?
Shrendyc wrote:
Ragnaat wrote:
Crafters craft, but do Architechs architect?
Hell, even in RL architects don't architect. I've spent my whole morning sending and responding to emails, pushing papers around, getting my information more organized so I can't find anything later, and drinking about half a bottle of coca cola. I've answered 4 phone calls, none of them of any relation to the project I am on.
I somehow think this is not what I went to school for...but hey, it all pays the same....
Ternque01 wrote:
yimaz wrote:
ana-mo-cara wrote:
We already got smuggler missions in the game by the way. They are just called delivery missions. Hey I stole this deliver it to such and such so he can crack the codes. You know what else novice marksman can take them. Delivery missions are smuggler missions. Look you aint going to get these zany missions you think your going to get it aint going to happen.
Ternque01 wrote:
*Ternque01 stamp of approval*
Stamp of Approval Ternque01? I know you and I dont agree on many issues but really??? You agree with this? As far as the other stuff it was addressed like 50 posts ago.
Message Edited by yimaz on 01-17-2005 12:03 PM
I do agree with the above statement. To some degree, I think that the "zany" smuggler missions will be a challenge to implement. What will be left are, obviously, simplified delivery missions for master smugglers to take. These will be similar to the delivery missions that novice marksmen can take, but probably with a little more spice.
This is why I really, REALLY support a variety of smuggler mission types, that are also incredibly simple to make. If you check out Wes' thread "Underworld Discussion", he has a link to my post detailing it. Basically, create 5-6 types of smuggler missions that use a smuggler's different abilities to make it out. These might include a bank slicing or spice depot slicing mission, an intercept mission of another smuggler in order to steal his/her cargo, an assassination mission of medlesome politicians or rival criminal, if you are in bad standing with your crimeboss you can just roam from city to city killing thugs in cities to regain some respect, OR you can do the regular smuggling missions. Some smugglers don't like these mission types, which I get direct inspiration from Grand Theft Auto, because they are too "thugish". If you guys really want one kind of mission type as a revamp and get bored, don't call me. There needs to be a healthy variety of things that a normal smuggler would do during their normal routines. They get attacked by BH's, have to murder, have to steal (even from babies), have to sell what they skim off their delivery, have to make the actual runs, and THEN they use their creativity to get money any other way you can imagine.
On the other hand, you have players who portrait the "good" smuggler - the kinda smuggler who ships goods for the Alliance or for a number of worthy causes. To these smugglers the thought of mugging, assassinating, and stealing doesn't fit into line. I don't know what to tell them. Unless smugglers can take missions from the Rebellion (etc.) directly where Admirals give them the same kinds of missions I suggest above. A Rebel smuggler might slice into Imperial weapon depots, intercept Imperial convoys in order to steal the cargo and smuggle it off planet, assassinate a figure head who is putting presure on supply lines, kill X number of Imperial shipping pilots, OR just do the regular smuggling missions.
What kills me is that these missions are the exact same thing, but with a different name. One is labeled "thugish", the other "good smuggler". In the end, they are still doing the same things and killing the same number of people.
Recapping, I suggest we implement simple, yet diverse, kinds of missions for smugglers. I pray we don't get stuck with one kind of delivery mission.
Ternque01 wrote:
I don't understand what you are getting at yimaz. I propose making a variety of simple mission types for our profession.
I really do wonder just how intricate and interesting that the devs can make smuggling missions. My guess is that they can't be too much more advanced than regular delivery missions.
To compensate for the lack of this detail and interest-holding design, I suggest instead putting in a number of missions that are SIMPLE and VARIED. These mission types would fill in the picture of what living as a smuggler might entail. This method was done with alot of success in Grand Theft Auto. They are very fun games to play. The only thing you would need to completely model that system in SWG would be to put in interesting ways of getting your missions... like talking to NPC thugs in cities. Different thugs would give out different kinds of missions. You could of course go to Jabba or Lady Valarian as well... that way, when you grow tired of running your glorified delivery mission, you can beat someone up in your frustration or go rob a bank or something.
I think what ana-mo-cara calls "zany" are missions that are extremely complicated in design. The devs need simple ideas that are easily implemented AND are fun to do. I think that Grand Theft Auto's mission system is exactly that.
There are no NPCs that come looking for you specifically to see if you have the package, to try to take the package, or to destroy the package.
A delivery mission is just that, a delivery. You're like a bike-messenger in a city. You go up to office X on floor Y in Z building, the secretary gives you a package, and tells you to take it to office A on floor B in C building, then you get on your bike and go there. Like I said previously, nobody's trying to search you for the package, take the package, nor destroy it.
Nicolas_Frost wrote:
You're like a bike-messenger in a city. You go up to office X on floor Y in Z building, the secretary gives you a package, and tells you to take it to office A on floor B in C building, then you get on your bike and go there.
Message Edited by yimaz on 01-17-2005 05:15 PM