Smuggler Archive
Thread: truisms...
Ternque01
Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:40 pm
#27
yimaz wrote:
ana-mo-cara wrote:
Han Solo made his livelihood being a drug runner, being a gambling cheat, and killing people. Before he hooked up with luke he was not a nice guy. Notice in the bar when he flips a coin to the bartender after wasteing greedo. Thats a cold hearted man. A man who had done in numerous times before. - read the Han Solo trilogy there ismore to Han then what you see in the movies he was more of a "tragic hero" then a thug.
This is symptamatic in RL. People willing to help with wrong doing up to a point. Hey I will smuggle the drugs across the border. I will not sell them though. Meanwhile twenty people die of an overdose in philadelphia, and ten kids go hungry that night. If your a smuggler your a traffic in human suffering. Whether it be dead junkies, or a guy getting waxed with semi auto you modified to full auto. - what about the underground rail road? They smuggled slaves to safty, or smuggling medical supplys and food to starving people in 3rd world countrys. The french smuggled weapons to the U.S.A during the fight for independance, the list goes on and on and on.
The story of han solo is the story of a man. Who for most of his life was a man with little to no moral fiber. - lol you really dont have any clue about Han Solo, again read the EU before you talk about things you dont know.Untill he hooked up with the rebellion and found a cause. Something worthy to fight for other then himself. - and freeing chewbacca and leaving the imperial navy shows no moral fiber?Trying to get up leias dress helped alot with that. - he was always a ladies man and fell in love with lei. If that had not happened you can rest assured. That han would have continued selling human suffering ata 20percent profit. - /rolleyes
Message Edited by yimaz on 01-14-2005 04:06 PM
Not to get in a pissing contest here, but the EU books hold very, very, very, VERY little weight with me. I think they are pansy and are little more than a quest to make more money.
Han, to me, is just like he was in the movies, a dirty scoundrel. This elevated hero stuff is BS.
Again, not trying to start any beef.
KaernLegorah
Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:38 pm
#28
DRWolfe wrote:
It is this version of a criminal HERO that we're looking for in this game, not the scum you describe and incorrectly label Han as.
It is? Since when? Why do all Smuggler's have to be heroic criminals? Han Solo is one example of a Smuggler. Just one. He does not represent everything that Smuggling and Smugglers are and/or should be.
What we should be looking for is a profession that allows us flexibility in how we play. So you can play the criminal hero, but somebody else can play the shrewd back-stabbing criminal, and yet another person can even play a clean-cut person who pays his Imperial taxes, runs a legitimate business by all the laws, and yet dabbles in the underground criminal world when nobody is looking.
You're making a very strong generalization when you say that we're all looking for Smuggler to be a heroic criminal profession. If you're a Rebel and want to go the Han Solo route, then by all means do so, but what about Imperials and Neutrals? Sure some of them can live up to a hero ideal, but it's doubtful that's how they all feel. Hell, I'm a Rebel, and I'm not looking to be a heroic criminal. I'm a Smuggler first and a Rebel second; if it works out I do something heroic, or that I look like the hero, then I'll take it in stride with a wink and a smile.
Han Solo was a heroic criminal for one reason, and one reason only: he's a hero character. Just like Luke, and Leia were hero characters. Y'know, the whole "the hero never dies/pulls off X number of amazing feats/always does the right thing in the end/etc, etc, etc." We're not heroes. Nobody in this game is meant to be a hero. We're just making our way in the Galaxy, and hoping to develop a reputation that suits our characters.
It's not the profession that makes you heroic; it's your character's personality.
DRWolfe
Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:26 am
#29
Okay-fine. I seem to have gotten a different view after reading all of the various novels about him.
Still, in the final reckoning, a Smuggler is not a Drug Dealer.
Still, in the final reckoning, a Smuggler is not a Drug Dealer.
TomoRainer
Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:50 am
#30
Maybe you're not. But it makes perfect sense for the smuggler of a product to get into the selling of the product, too. Like season 2 of The Wire, when the Sobotka kids were smuggling heroin through the piers where they worked as dock workers, then eventually began selling it themselves (man that show is awesome). In the strictest sense of the word "smuggler," sure, we aren't spice merchants, but it's a natural progression for some types of people, one that I don't want to see removed as an option for our characters to get into.
Abai
Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:00 am
#31
ana-mo-cara wrote:Well lets be fair to the devs. What do modern smugglers regularly traffic in drugs people counterfeit goods. In other words smugglers are dealing in immoral behavious. Sure there are weapons smugglers, and the occassional medicine or food smuggler, but in reality a smuggler/ aka bootlegger is someone who sneaks illegal goods to non criminals in order to make a profit, and ninety percent of the time thats drugs. We have an entire branch of smuggling devoted to running meth labs. Read the descriptions of where spices come from for a hoot. We run and operate meth labs. I hate to break it to you too that han solo was probabally running drugs. He was smuggling for a crime lord. I hope to god he wasnt smuggleing people and dumped the cargo.Besides players selling one unit of dope berries is kind of funny for a roleplay element.Han Solo made his livelihood being a drug runner, being a gambling cheat, and killing people. Before he hooked up with luke he was not a nice guy. Notice in the bar when he flips a coin to the bartender after wasteing greedo. Thats a cold hearted man. A man who had done in numerous times before.This is symptamatic in RL. People willing to help with wrong doing up to a point. Hey I will smuggle the drugs across the border. I will not sell them though. Meanwhile twenty people die of an overdose in philadelphia, and ten kids go hungry that night. If your a smuggler your a traffic in human suffering. Whether it be dead junkies, or a guy getting waxed with semi auto you modified to full auto.The story of han solo is the story of a man. Who for most of his life was a man with little to no moral fiber. Untill he hooked up with the rebellion and found a cause. Something worthy to fight for other then himself. Trying to get up leias dress helped alot with that. If that had not happened you can rest assured. That han would have continued selling human suffering at a 20percent profit.
I disagree with you here Ana. Smuggling isn't just about drugs. Alchohol, cigarettes, Ivory, endangered animals, gold, diamonds practically anything that in some way is restricted by law, tariffs or taxes are being smuggled. Every day there's people being smuggled across borders all over the world, either in search of a better life or because they are refugees. You say that smugglers sneaks illegal goods to non criminals... most often they bring the goods across the border and then hand it over to criminals who distribute it to non criminals. Imagine a smuggler distributing 1 million cigarettes or 10 kilo drugs.
So in short a smuggler is a person who move goods from one location to another and in the process breaks the law, either by avoiding tariffs/taxes or by the goods themselves being illegal.
Wether Han was selling human suffering or not depends on what he was smuggling. I don't believe that drugs are 90% of smuggled goods. There are too many other goods being smuggled. How can you even measure the various levels of smuggling? In value, quantity or weight? If you are measuring it in suffering then I would agree that drugs are 90%, but if it's in value, quantity or weight then I'd say you are way off target.
ana-mo-cara
Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:04 am
#32
One lets just drop the entire EU nonsense. Sure these books are good for reading, but this stuff comes from multiple authors, and the books are not being redone over and over and over again. Till they match a specific vision, or even to be in line with pertenant facts in a universe, or franchise. I understand with just five starwars movies. Hardcore fans can go into some desperate fiending. I suppose startrek and babylon five and so on have less of an issue with this. They have alot more official material on tv and in movies. Still lets not revere EU as what the franchise is about. Unless george lucas is directly involved In a EU item directing writeing produceing or overseeing it step by step. I am not going to consider it cast in stone starwars. I merely consider it a tribute.
Once again people are trying to portray a nice guy smuggler image. Which to be fair is not limited to starwars han solo. How often do you see a theif or criminal in a show or story. That is basically a bad person stealing for self gain, or killing in some iconoclastic conflict. People doing bad things made to seem affable. You can even see this in mob movies in shows. Mr tony soprano is for gunning people down running people over with cars, but hey selling drugs is bad. What the its symptamatic of wanting the rogue to be heroic. Possibly going back to robin hood.
Real smugglers are not nice guys. Underground railroad did not have smugglers. They had conductors. The american revolution had allies. The french recognized the united states as a sovereighn power in that they were not smuggleing. Not to say a number of the founding fathers were not smugglers. So lets be particular in analogy.
The truth is few smugglers are han solo esque characters. The real smuggler is a guy paid to deliver illegal goods to a place of dispersment. Whether the smuggler sells himself or delivers another persons illegal goods. Either way the smuggler is getting paid to do a wrong thing.
One other point the milenium falcon was probabally not used to run slaves. Remember from episode one most slaves get termination implants so there is no way a slave would say they were a slave. The falcon is fast small and heavily armed. Thats what a drugrunning ship is. The cargo is light. For slave transport you would probabally require a larger ship. Something more along the line of a refugee ship.
ana-mo-cara
Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:36 am
#33
Okay now your calling a conducter a smuggler, and a privateer a smuggler. The difference I have to point out was these people probabally were not doing this for mere money. Whereas the modern smuggler smuggles for money. Why because there is alot of money in smuggleing. People are greedy and for added risk their is great reward.
Han solo was not a nice guy. Stop trying to soften the guy. Stop idolizeing the guy. Here is a guy that is a drug runner a cold blooded killer, and a man that loves money.
Look he wasted greedo. Here he is talking to this guy calmly while he unholsters a gun and blasts him from under the table. Stands up and tosses the bartender a coin. Thats cold hearted. Thats a man who has done the exact same thing before. This isnt the heat of a firefight kind of thing. Cold calculated multitasked and rational.
The milenium falcon. Has a built in antipersonal laser rifle. Are you telling me that its used for space battle no its not. Its to waste the cops comeing to bust him for his crimes.
Jabba said han was the best. Smuggler wise the only way you get to be the best. Is to survive long enough. Odds are han has been at it for awhile take that into account when adding up victims.
I do not care if you like what han became. Before he became han the rebel. He was the han out for his own neck and you need to die if you get in my way. Han yeah I run illegal goods for a gangster tells you that these arent humanitarian goods. Han I know how to shoot people while talking to them. Han I installed an antipersonal gun on my freighter.
I have a fealing you guys would paint tommy vercetti as some kind of hero. See tommy needs to use hookers to verify that they hook. Then he needs to run over the hooker because she is sinful, and he takes the money off the body to give to orphans. He also runs over the junkies, because they all contracted a super disease, and if he kills them nobody else will get it. Poor tommy the cops so misunderstand him. I mean they cannot even understand that its not tommys fault that pedestrians get on the sidewalks where tommy is driveing.
Han was a criminal. Stop makeing excuses from him. He lived off human misery, and when push came to shove he would shoot you. Thats not a nice guy.
Nicolas_Frost
Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:08 am
#34
ana-mo-cara wrote:Okay now your calling a conducter a smuggler, and a privateer a smuggler. The difference I have to point out was these people probabally were not doing this for mere money. Whereas the modern smuggler smuggles for money.-The reason why someone smuggles does not matter. If someone smuggles anything or anyone, then that person is a smuggler. Why because there is alot of money in smuggleing.-No, really? People are greedy and for added risk their is great reward.Han solo was not a nice guy.-Never said he was. Stop trying to soften the guy.-Never tried that either. Stop idolizeing the guy.-Nope, didn't do that either. Here is a guy that is a drug runner a cold blooded killer, and a man that loves money.-Thank you, Captain Obvious!Look he wasted greedo. Here he is talking to this guy calmly while he unholsters a gun and blasts him from under the table.-Would you rather him flip the table up in front of Greedo's face and then pull his blaster? Not only is this more sneaky, but it means Greedo didn't see it coming. Stands up and tosses the bartender a coin.-Ever thought he was paying for his drink and the damage+mess? Its for show. Its like people show an act of brutality to assert themselves as not to be messed with, so that they don't have to go through such things all the time. And considering Jabba saw him as the best, he's probably on Tatooine alot. What he did will keep the regulars from messing with him. Thats cold hearted. Thats a man who has done the exact same thing before. This isnt the heat of a firefight kind of thing. Cold calculated multitasked and rational.-Gee... ya think?The milenium falcon. Has a built in antipersonal laser rifle. Are you telling me that its used for space battle no its not. Its to waste the cops comeing to bust him for his crimes.More like to drop *anyone* who'd be coming after him, authority figure, rival, and Bounty Hunter alike.Jabba said han was the best. Smuggler wise the only way you get to be the best. Is to survive long enough.-It all makes sense now! Odds are han has been at it for awhile take that into account when adding up victims.-I don't really care if he's killed thousands or just a handfull. Doesn't matter. Like when Greedo was on him, there was a blaster in his face. Hmmm, I dunno about you, but if I got a guy holding a leathal weapon within striking distance, and I think I got a damn good chance to turn the tables, I'll try it.I do not care if you like what han became.-So you have a different oppinion than someone else. What of it? Before he became han the rebel. He was the han out for his own neck and you need to die if you get in my way. Han yeah I run illegal goods for a gangster tells you that these arent humanitarian goods. Han I know how to shoot people while talking to them. Han I installed an antipersonal gun on my freighter.-Congratulations on saying everything you just said, all over again.I have a fealing you guys would paint tommy vercetti as some kind of hero. See tommy needs to use hookers to verify that they hook. Then he needs to run over the hooker because she is sinful, and he takes the money off the body to give to orphans. He also runs over the junkies, because they all contracted a super disease, and if he kills them nobody else will get it. Poor tommy the cops so misunderstand him. I mean they cannot even understand that its not tommys fault that pedestrians get on the sidewalks where tommy is driveing.Han was a criminal. Stop makeing excuses from him. He lived off human misery, and when push came to shove he would shoot you. Thats not a nice guy.-Who said he was a nice guy? We were saying he was a badass. You can admire someone without aggreeing to anything they say and do. Its not hard at all.
ana-mo-cara
Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:25 am
#35
Okay I am saying this to the people that think han solo is some tragic hero. Where the hell is the tragedy in han solo. Thats not tragic he was a criminal that changed his ways this was not something like batman, heracles.FDR. There was no tragic event to turn han. He made a choice of conscience. He wasnt overcomeing a disadvantage.
He wasnt a robin hood type of character. He wasnt smuggleing, because he had no choice.
He was a criminal. Through the movies we see him as something else then where he came from. When he is a leader in the rebel alliance. So if your admireing han solo your not admireing him for being a smuggler. Your admireing him for being a soldier in a righteous cause, and his tenacity when it came to that.
The devs are really right on for what a smuggler should be. Smugglers in this game are criminals. If you do not like to think of yourself playing a criminal then do not be a smuggler. Everything a smuggler does in this game is a crime. From makeing and selling drugs. To modifying weapons. If your playing a smuggler your playing a criminal.
You are a drug dealer. You illegally alter weapons. You are a criminal thats why you get fined or shot for being a smuggler in possession of these items. Can we not try to say I am a tragic hero. Its like roleplaying a creature handler, and saying I am not a creature handler. I am a zoo manager. Its like saying I am a armorsmith, because I am looking to make high healed boots. Your a smuggler your a criminal your a bad guy. What is so bad about roleplaying a self serveing criminal. If you want to roleplay a nice guy there are tons of nice guy professions.
Ternque01
Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:33 am
#36
ana-mo-cara wrote:
Okay I am saying this to the people that think han solo is some tragic hero. Where the hell is the tragedy in han solo. Thats not tragic he was a criminal that changed his ways this was not something like batman, heracles.FDR. There was no tragic event to turn han. He made a choice of conscience. He wasnt overcomeing a disadvantage.
He wasnt a robin hood type of character. He wasnt smuggleing, because he had no choice.
He was a criminal. Through the movies we see him as something else then where he came from. When he is a leader in the rebel alliance. So if your admireing han solo your not admireing him for being a smuggler. Your admireing him for being a soldier in a righteous cause, and his tenacity when it came to that.
The devs are really right on for what a smuggler should be. Smugglers in this game are criminals. If you do not like to think of yourself playing a criminal then do not be a smuggler. Everything a smuggler does in this game is a crime. From makeing and selling drugs. To modifying weapons. If your playing a smuggler your playing a criminal.
You are a drug dealer. You illegally alter weapons. You are a criminal thats why you get fined or shot for being a smuggler in possession of these items. Can we not try to say I am a tragic hero. Its like roleplaying a creature handler, and saying I am not a creature handler. I am a zoo manager. Its like saying I am a armorsmith, because I am looking to make high healed boots. Your a smuggler your a criminal your a bad guy. What is so bad about roleplaying a self serveing criminal. If you want to roleplay a nice guy there are tons of nice guy professions.
Exactly.
gimilon
Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:27 pm
#37
Real smugglers are not nice guys. Underground railroad did not have smugglers. They had conductors. The american revolution had allies. The french recognized the united states as a sovereighn power in that they were not smuggleing. Not to say a number of the founding fathers were not smugglers. So lets be particular in analogy.
The truth is few smugglers are han solo esque characters. The real smuggler is a guy paid to deliver illegal goods to a place of dispersment. Whether the smuggler sells himself or delivers another persons illegal goods. Either way the smuggler is getting paid to do a wrong thing.
1). Tomato/tomatoe...the "conductors" smuggled people to safety. The french allies did indeed smuggle the americans weapons, as I'm sure the British Empire would have viewed it. Just because these acts were/are considered desireable in these instances, it doesn't lessen the fact that these goods/people were smuggled, no matter what type of semantics you wish to use. It's two sides of the same coin, same as terrorist/freedom fighter.
2). Here you equate legality with morality, which is wrong. Sometimes the law is an a**. Using different examples than the ones you provided, is it wrong for people to smuggle literature into countries that have extreme censorship? How about medical supplies to injured civilians in places that are undergoing civil war within a military dictatorships? How about transporting people out of coutries and into safe havens where they can apply as refugees due to persecution? It can be quite easily be argued that these illegal activities are the right thing to do.
Nicolas_Frost
Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:51 pm
#38
ana-mo-cara wrote:
Real smugglers are not nice guys. Underground railroad did not have smugglers. They had conductors. The american revolution had allies. The french recognized the united states as a sovereighn power in that they were not smuggleing. Not to say a number of the founding fathers were not smugglers. So lets be particular in analogy.
"Conductor" was the code word which was used to refer to the smugglers. The "Underground Railroad" was the code word used to refer to the route & networkthrough which the slaves were smuggled out of the South.
While France may have recognized the US as a Sovereign nation, they still had to discreetly deliver goods through potentially hostile forces which did not want the recipient to obtain. Sounds like Smuggling to me.
I'm not trying to argue the heroic smuggler versus the villainous smuggler. I'marguing the fact that while all smugglers are criminals in one way or another(by either breaking someone's laws or opposing someone's rule), that not all are the type who are trash.
Cloudchasing
Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:11 pm
#39
Ternque01 wrote:
ana-mo-cara wrote:
Okay I am saying this to the people that think han solo is some tragic hero. Where the hell is the tragedy in han solo. Thats not tragic he was a criminal that changed his ways this was not something like batman, heracles.FDR. There was no tragic event to turn han. He made a choice of conscience. He wasnt overcomeing a disadvantage.
He wasnt a robin hood type of character. He wasnt smuggleing, because he had no choice.
He was a criminal. Through the movies we see him as something else then where he came from. When he is a leader in the rebel alliance. So if your admireing han solo your not admireing him for being a smuggler. Your admireing him for being a soldier in a righteous cause, and his tenacity when it came to that.
The devs are really right on for what a smuggler should be. Smugglers in this game are criminals. If you do not like to think of yourself playing a criminal then do not be a smuggler. Everything a smuggler does in this game is a crime. From makeing and selling drugs. To modifying weapons. If your playing a smuggler your playing a criminal.
You are a drug dealer. You illegally alter weapons. You are a criminal thats why you get fined or shot for being a smuggler in possession of these items. Can we not try to say I am a tragic hero. Its like roleplaying a creature handler, and saying I am not a creature handler. I am a zoo manager. Its like saying I am a armorsmith, because I am looking to make high healed boots. Your a smuggler your a criminal your a bad guy. What is so bad about roleplaying a self serveing criminal. If you want to roleplay a nice guy there are tons of nice guy professions.
Exactly.
/agree.
What a lot of people need to realize is that there are only 2 criminal profs in this entire game......Smugglers and JEDI. Smugglers do bad things, they might have good hearts too, but in the end, they make their living doing illegal things. The difference is, the game doesn't treat us like the criminals that we are. Maybe it's because we are useful, and Jedi are just annoying. Maybe that's it, butthen, maybe if it was a point of pride to have a sliced weapon/armor, instead of the norm...ah heck, I dunno where I'm going with this.
SMugglers can be good people, but that doesn't mean we do good things.