Smuggler Archive
Thread: Last Ditch question from a Jedi
Ternque01 wrote:
Anaalin wrote:
Graxul wrote:
Ok I'll bite. I've never fought a jedi before. I've heard stories of jedi healing is better than a master doctor's healing ability.
Ok, I will bite back.
No, the max a jedi can heal is 1500 pts. There are stims that anyone can use that can heal that much.
How much does it heal? If it heals a lot would it be appropriate to have a long cooldown on all moves after using it (like not being able to attack for 10 seconds)
There already is a cooldown timer on it. It may not be much, but there is one.
Do you guys have to use it, or would you rather use something else?
Both. We have to use it, as most BHs now have weapons that will deal 1000-1200 pts of damage a shot, while the best sabers are around 700-800 pts of dmg per hit, and about the same speed.
We would much rather be able to survive without it.
First of all, normal toons can have stims that do 1.2k and only every 60 seconds, but 30 seconds with each sip of a drink. I think the cooldown timer for that 1.5k Jedi heal is 3-4 seconds.
Second, I noticed that with a very nice rifle, carbine, or pistol (i've used all three against Jedi), the most I've been able to register on them was 750-800 tops.
I have seen Jedi hit for 600-700 tops, but mostly 300-500.
Most jedi I've dealt with on Bloodfin hit from 500-800 damage.. and that's with defender and enhancer, or what ever the frick they have.
However, in the server war we are fighting in, we ran across a jedi that was hitting for over 1k damage. I have ss to prove this to.. his hardest hit was 1187.
Message Edited by xTekx on 06-10-2005 01:39 PM
SmugglinZane wrote:
Go watch Jango Fett in episode 2 again.
Yeah, he shot one in the back. But BHs can already kill Jedi one on one, especially when hitting in the back. I usually mention that particular scene when saying can't kill one on one, but forgot this time.
Also, I've watched a full group of 8 CL80 players get killed by an ancient krayt while 2 Jedi were able to take another one down. Granted, not all the regular template players were that good at what they were doing, but I also know that the Jedi weren't exactly using too many tactics either. It was more of a brute force attack.
2 Jedi Knights, maybe. Haven't been one, so can't comment on that one. But I have also seen screen shots of a cl80 character soling a krayt, and he was not jedi. Don't know what his class was, but this was post-cu, and the party that was out there was a full group of Jedi, who were not doing quite as well, but were holding their own.
xTekx wrote:
However, in the server war we are fighting in, we ran across a jedi that was hitting for over 1k damage. I have ss to prove this to.. his hardest hit was 1187.
No screen shot necessary, I trust you. I believe I have seen one jedi hit for over 1000 myself, but it was one. and he was a knight. Most of us are nowhere near that.
Also had 3 people on one jedi last night. One TKM/Jedi one Swordsman/Doc, and myself with MS/MBH/ and Commando 0040 with other people healing us if we needed it. We couldn't kill him. He took all three of us out. We'd get him down to 1/4 health left and bam, he's back up to full health. So if that doesn't show jedi to be over powered then I don't know what is. I pretty much gave up on pvp last night until jedi are brought down on the healing power. I'd rather them be taken out of the game, but then I guess I can't have everything.
No, that's called smart. our healing is only 1500, and we do have a little pause on it. It also drains a good amount of our force bar. That guy was likely alternating between force heal, stims, and there is a quest reward crystal from the village that immedeatly heals full health. I think that has a huge downtime in between uses, though.
Message Edited by Anaalin on 06-10-2005 01:49 PM
SmugglinZane wrote:
I was trying to be diplomatic, but I'm starting to see your true colors. You've only been paying attention to the posts you consider "rude".
I now believe you came here knowing exactly what you were doing. You think you're smart because you think you've posted in a way that hides your motives, but you haven't.
First of all, you haven't been hit with it, have never used it, probably know nothing about it, but somehow you're just curious about it. Well guess what, I'm calling BS on that. Why? Because you sat around egging on the answers. Because there is STILL A STICKY IN THIS FORUM THAT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION!!!
So for one last time, then I hope you'll leave. LD does a great amount of damage. The only time it is usable by a Smuggler though is usually when he belongs to a large group since he/she is more than likely to go incap from it's use. Why? Because damage is based on how much health you have. If you have a lot of health, it does crap. So you're already down, about to die, so you break out your LAST DITCH effort. What happens now? You either hit for a couple thousand damage, or you miss, get blocked, or more often than not, get incapped before you can use it. You can try and use it as an opener like some of your cohorts think is done, but that would be stupid because it drops all HAM bars to near nothing and will do minimal damage when you're at full health.
This attack is exactly what it says. It's a Last Ditch. It' is not exploitable, but it can decide the outcome of a battle. That outcome is usually a Smuggler dying though.
as far as replying to only "rude" posts you must have missed me saying thank you to someone who answered my question. the same as me missing the sticky. Its human nature, it happens, I'll forgive you.
Graxul wrote:
dubiousmastax wrote:
I've never been hit with this bad boy, but I have a quick question.
For smugglers, is this considered a heavy offensive attack that is your big climax, i.e. icing on the cake...or is it truly a last ditch effort to survive and escape?
If it is a last ditch effort (as the name suggests) would it be appropriate to have a long cooldown on all moves after using it (like not being able to attack for 10 seconds)
Do you guys hate to use it, or ache to use it?
Ok I'll bite. I've never fought a jedi before. I've heard stories of jedi healing is better than a master doctor's healing ability.How much does it heal? If it heals a lot would it be appropriate to have a long cooldown on all moves after using it (like not being able to attack for 10 seconds)
Do you guys have to use it, or would you rather use something else?
If I said that in the jedi forums would I get flamed? Should I expect to see jedi coming out of the woodwork to defend an ability of theirs that works? Jedi complain they don't do enough damage...yet they heal very very well. I've watched em shrug off Combat medic dotting bounty hunters and another bounty hunter at the same time and live due to their healing ability. Yet they complain when it takes 5 bounty hunters to kill them...you jedi are not GODS. Jedi are supposed to be only 1.5x stronger than a normal profession...that means if 2 bounty hunters are unable to kill you then jedi need nerfed not the templates bounty hunters have to use to kill you in packs of 2 or more. Jedi is supposed to be hard especially if you gain visibility...thats how the devs plan on keeping jedi numbers down. But every phase of the village the numbers keep going up. GCW was designed, balanced and tested for non jedi. Yet Jedi slaughter anyone that dares to go special forces to pad FRS standings...why run or hide when ya can just kill em. After all they're just "mundanes" right?
Here is my version of a fix instead of nerfing to oblivion. Jedi's main problem right now is they feel they have to group with other jedi or padawan to level. I personally have no problem with that. Jedi should be able to group or kill their own kind as much as they like without gaining visibility. Thats the jedi civil war is it not? Jedi vs Dark Jedi. Talk the devs into forcing you into a higher pvp tier than special forces once you become knights...and give padawans the option of on leave or that higher pvp tier. That way jedi can't gank mundanes unless the mundanes choose to go to that higher tier as well. Otherwise us mundanes can enjoy our little mundane only GCW while jedi fight their jedi civil war. With that set up you'll have a much easier time staying off the terminals...how hard is it to equip a weapon? No visibility, no bh hunting you, problem solved.
But if you do show off or are spotted by mundanes while hunting, then every bounty hunter on the server should be able to hunt you down. But once you have been killed and cloned all bounties on you by any other bounty hunters will fail...for that day. Then the next day a repeat of that depending on how much visibility you have left to work off with deaths or time not playing as a jedi. You do get that extra account after all. Have maybe some jedi friendly area like the village or some other place to have a terminal to see how much visibility you have left on the terminals to work off. Better yet hire a smuggler to do it for you by slicing the terminals...that way you need not risk even leaving your house. Thats a complex problem solved in my opinion. Whether the devs,jedi, and bounty hunters will like it is a different story but at least its a solution without asking for every ability that can kill you to be nerfed....like jedi have been doing.
But back to the main topic. Most Smuggler abilities don't work our only attack actually debuffs our defense by 80. Feign death has like a 50% chance that it might work...if it fails we're on our back...a free knockdown for ya when we're nearly dead anyway. Panic shot at one time was a delay attack that worked quite well...the first delay attack. But because damage didn't break the delay it was nerfed to break on damage as well as given a long reuse timer...so inorder to use it ya had use panic and /peace to keep the autoattack from breaking the delay...so then it was useless. Now riflemen have startle shot that has a delay effect similar to how panic shot worked after it was nerfed but without the long reuse timer, yet panic's description says it delays the target for a brief period of time...yet it debuffs attack speed by a measly 10 points...15 at master smuggler. Low blow used to be a ranged knockdown we loved it...now its an attack speed debuff useful only against players really and even then the best we could hope for is to reduce the targets speed down to the weapons normal premodified speed. Concussion shot is the only real useful smuggler ability i use all the time when i hunt but that too will be changed because its supposed to be a mez instead of a root. My snare, restricting shot, is pretty handy too...no reason it should be nerfed but knowing the devs they're thinking about it...I've heard a rumor about it once already...it should stay a rumor.
How many patches, entire publishes even, have been dedicated to jedi? How long have the devs promissed us a revamp? The first attention we have gotten that haven't been nerfs, was the "Combat Upgrade". We are a bitter profession and very very protective of what few abilities that we do have that work. That happens when you've been beaten by the nerfstick too much and haven't been fed much. But as a Jedi you wouldn't understand...you think you have it bad and complain about the risk that gives you the power you have. You want the power that comes with jedi but you don't want to be hunted by everyone that hate you for showing off and making them only be able to hunt you...unless you allow us to hunt others....by keeping hidden and not killing us mundanes every time you see us ready to attack rebel or imp mundanes. I'm sure the visibility penalty would be less to run from mundanes rather than kill them...and you do have cloak as well as force run at your disposal.
Last ditch to answer your question, even at master smuggler at best maybe a 60% chance of hitting. Most of the time when i've attempted to use it I get an extraordinary number of misses. And it really hurts when it misses because no matter what your ham bars were before firing it, it will be next to nothing afterwards...often incapping you(the smuggler being incapped)...and not touching the target. If it is used too soon any player could shrug it off if they have any healing ability. But if timed when almost incapped anyway well it can be deadly and pack a punch. Both the smuggler and the target could both easily get incapped from such a maneuver...or the smuggler might get lucky and walk over and deathblow the target first. Its very risky and as all jedi know the higher the risk the higher the power. Thats the reasoning behind all high level loot drops from elite mobs as well as the reasoning behind jedi. But if you had thought to use the search ability of the forum...or clicked back a page or so there already was a jedi that asked about how to get around the danger of this ability. We treated him with respect because he didn't ask it with a "fix" to nerf us more than we already are. But obviously your lazy in that regard or the search button isn't working...wouldn't be the first time. Don't use your knockdown attack first. Instead wait until the bounty hunter/smuggler is close to dead, knock him down and then hit em again while he's down if that doesn't kill him. If the bounty hunter/smuggler doesn't use last ditch when nearly dead then the attack,if it hits, will be easily healed. Ask us nicely, without trying to promote some more nerfs you jedi have thought up, and we'll treat you with as much respect you show us. Disrespect us, expect to get set on fire by the lynch mob carrying all the torches.
Message Edited by Graxul on 06-10-2005 11:30 AM
a) Jedi heals are in the process of getting neutered as we speak.
b) I agree that Jedi need have a different end-game, making them less visible. I dont think they should be removed from gcw though. but I agree it should be risky to show ourselves so publically
c) There are few professions that have received their very own publish. Jedi got one because the devs realized they werent ready to actually have a jedi system. Smugglers are one of the very first overhauls for a specific profession. Before commandos, before squadleaders, before other just as broken professions. and to be honest I would feel bad for the smuggler community if it got the same kind of "love" from the devs that jedi have gotten.
CapnKate wrote:
dubiousmastax wrote:
AngusMacGregor wrote:
dubiousmastax wrote:
AngusMacGregor wrote:
Not this again... do you Jedi just love to come here and start crap with Smugglers?Leave our specials alone. Nothing to see here. Move along. Nothing to nerf here.It's working just fine, and working as intended. No changes are necessary. Go back and tell your Jedi friends.
since when is educating myself starting crap? better to get it from the horse's mouth no?
Because it's always the same with these posts from Jedi. First they try to act innocent "Hey, just asking a question.", then they start talking about how it's overpowered and unfair (usually they're ignorant of how the move really works), or they'll try to suggest ways to "fix" it as if it were broken, then the next thing you know, they're on the Jedi forums saying how Smugglers need to be nerfed.If that's not your intent, fine. But since you already started talking about how to "fix" it (cooldown timer idea) I kinda doubt it.
lol if theyre ignorant about how it works then by all means educate them.
If a Jedi wanders into this forum and asks about a special that may concern him and gets jumped all over hes gonna think "wow they really really dont want it changed, it MUST be uber!!"
you'd be surprised how much grief a little bit of patience and education would save you.
Just in case you wander back, I'll say this:
Education is, yes, great at saving us trouble. That's why there is a Sticky at the top of this board titled "Have a Question/Concern/Idea about Last Ditch? Read This!". It's been there for over a month and answers every question you posed, including mentioning that You can only use Last Ditch once every five minutes or so. You'd also know that there's no *point* to a long cooldown, because it reduces all your HAM to zero, and it's going to be several seconds before you regen enough to do anything anyway(Even spiced, it takes a while to regen), assuming you don't incap yourself outright when you attempt it.
Patience is all well and good, but with all due respect to someone posting reasonably about this, reading what information we have already provided would save you a lot of grief, too.
I missed the sticky, I'm sorry
Anaalin wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
Second, I noticed that with a very nice rifle, carbine, or pistol (i've used all three against Jedi), the most I've been able to register on them was 750-800 tops.
I have seen Jedi hit for 600-700 tops, but mostly 300-500.
A BH/Master rifles with a T-21 will almost constantly hit over 1000 dmg every time. Considering that most new jedi are level 60 or so, and most BHs that hunt jedi are lvl 80, that goes up abit.
But the Saber damage you have listed is almost dead on. My saber max dmg is a little over 300, but I suck at making them, and have crappy crystals
Message Edited by Anaalin on 06-10-2005 12:58 PM
Do not expect me to buy this. I was a MBH/M.Rifles/Pistoleer 0404 for the past month and I hunted Jedi as a job. In that time, I killed 18 Jedi. Three were knights, a few were almost knight, alot of 150-190k Jedi, and quite a few 60-150k Jedi.
I have a 1017 max damage T-21 with wicked speed and action cost, and I will tell you from experience that I hit these Jedi for 700-800 TOPS.
I have lived your example, and I'm not buying.
Anaalin wrote:
No, that's called smart. our healing is only 1500, and we do have a little pause on it. It also drains a good amount of our force bar. That guy was likely alternating between force heal, stims, and there is a quest reward crystal from the village that immedeatly heals full health. I think that has a huge downtime in between uses, though.
Spiderhammer wrote:
dubiousmastax wrote:
Lotherd wrote:
dubiousmastax wrote:
I've never been hit with this bad boy, but I have a quick question.
For smugglers, is this considered a heavy offensive attack that is your big climax, i.e. icing on the cake...or is it truly a last ditch effort to survive and escape?
If it is a last ditch effort (as the name suggests) would it be appropriate to have a long cooldown on all moves after using it (like not being able to attack for 10 seconds)
Do you guys hate to use it, or ache to use it?
I have a question for you, and I ask this as politely as I can possibly do:What does being a Jedi have to do with your question?
I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I see no reason why we had to know you were a Jedi. Be proud of your accomplishment, absolutely. I would be too. But why did you have to tell us about this? Were you hoping that everyone would just jump on the thread and answer your question right away? Did you think that you'd get a better response than if you were not a Jedi? I could understand if your question related to you or Jedis, but it doesn't.
I apologize for the fact that you're getting the blunt end of my frustration, but I returned to the game a little over a week ago. In that time frame, 90% of the Jedi I've met have either been extreme show-offs, jerks, childish or snobs. I'm glowy myself at the moment, but because the only side I've seen of the Jedi community has been horrible, I do not want to become one myself.
If I missed something, I truly am sorry. But I just don't get it.
Actually it was meant to show that I am not a smuggler and was therefore seeking information that I cannot get firsthand. no worries though, it seems rude is par for the course here. you fit right in.
ok notice how he has nothing to say on the main part of this post..... leaves the whole second paragraph unanswered..I figure if jedi are gonna come to our forum and troll for trouble they answer our concerns..so how bout it jedi boy..what do you think..are you guys really a community of tools or are 90% of the jedi we see the exception to the rule?
I can tell that comprehension isn't your bag. I'll give you a play by play:
Post A: what does jedi have to do with anything? Jedi are jerks
Post B: because it points out I'm not a smuggler, nor can I pick up smuggler to try it.
it directly responds to the post, which ironically enough was not an answer to my question.
Ternque01 wrote:
That 1.5k heal has next to zero force costs.
Ternque01 wrote:
Do not expect me to buy this. I was a MBH/M.Rifles/Pistoleer 0404 for the past month and I hunted Jedi as a job. In that time, I killed 18 Jedi. Three were knights, a few were almost knight, alot of 150-190k Jedi, and quite a few 60-150k Jedi.
I have a 1017 max damage T-21 with wicked speed and action cost, and I will tell you from experience that I hit these Jedi for 700-800 TOPS.
I have lived your example, and I'm not buying.
I really couldn't care less if you buy it or not. I've seen it with my own eyes.
Hell, I respeced to Master Rifles JUST so I could use the Krayt T-21 I have that I used before, when I was TKM/Master Rifles.
And btw, I came here respectfully, and without malice. Calling someone a liar, and saying something can't possiblky be true because you can't do it is kinda rude.
Message Edited by Anaalin on 06-10-2005 02:36 PM
Anaalin wrote:
xTekx wrote:
However, in the server war we are fighting in, we ran across a jedi that was hitting for over 1k damage. I have ss to prove this to.. his hardest hit was 1187.
No screen shot necessary, I trust you. I believe I have seen one jedi hit for over 1000 myself, but it was one. and he was a knight. Most of us are nowhere near that.
Also had 3 people on one jedi last night. One TKM/Jedi one Swordsman/Doc, and myself with MS/MBH/ and Commando 0040 with other people healing us if we needed it. We couldn't kill him. He took all three of us out. We'd get him down to 1/4 health left and bam, he's back up to full health. So if that doesn't show jedi to be over powered then I don't know what is. I pretty much gave up on pvp last night until jedi are brought down on the healing power. I'd rather them be taken out of the game, but then I guess I can't have everything.
No, that's called smart. our healing is only 1500, and we do have a little pause on it. It also drains a good amount of our force bar. That guy was likely alternating between force heal, stims, and there is a quest reward crystal from the village that immedeatly heals full health. I think that has a huge downtime in between uses, though.
The whole thing, though, I think, boils down to some people just don't like Jedi. Well, Jedi are here to stay.
You can cry nerf the heal all you want, but as soon as they do nerf the healing, guess what? It unbalances other things like Last Ditch, and then that gets nerfed.
I have trolled around on different forums, and read other's opinions, and basically, from what I have seen, everyone that complains about something being too powerful is always complaining about *someone elses* thing being too powerful. Kinda smells like too many people wanting an "I win" button.
Personally, I don't see much that needs to be nerfed, if anything. Granted, I don't PVP much, because it just doesn't hold my interest like it does other people's.
Personally, I am all for Jedi to stop crying nerf on Last Ditch, or anything else you suggler types use, and instead concentrate on getting our own bugs worked out. I am also for you smugglers to stop wining about our stuff needing nerfed, and concentrate instead on getting your bugs worked out. And yeah, I am aware smuggs prolly have more bugs than half the other profs combined.
But I believe if everyone did that, eventually, things would get fixed, and everything would be fine.
Of course, there would still be whiners on both sides
*shrug*
edit: I can't spell worth a damn
Message Edited by Anaalin on 06-10-200501:49 PM
Ok, you said in your post that you don't pvp much. So that says a lot right there. We had 3 people on 1 jedi. Jedi killed all 3 people. Why? Because we coudln't kill him before he healed back up to full health. That right there is the problem. When the jedi's force power got low he Force ran away, this is while we we're zerging. But at that point it didn't matter if he died because he had already "pwned" us into the ground.
While I do hate jedi, the problem I have specifically in pvp is the fact that they can heal for that much at a pop. It pretty much eliminates them from dying. What happened last night proves this. He can kill each person one at a time, which is what he did. Us non-jedi can't heal that much that fast. We have a 60 second wait before we can heal, 30 seconds if you use ruby bliel i believe. And no I don't care if I die. God knows i've done a lot of that this war, and every war i've been in. I've already gone through a full suit of rebel assault armor. The problem I have is that I have NO chance to kill a jedi when I choose to fight one. I can choose to escape, which works maybe 1 out of 10 times. That is the problem I have with Jedi. I have Master Bounty Hunter. Wasn't that supposed to be able to fight a jedi? Maybe I missed the patch notes that said jedi are invincible.
xTekx wrote:
Ok, you said in your post that you don't pvp much. So that says a lot right there. We had 3 people on 1 jedi. Jedi killed all 3 people. Why? Because we coudln't kill him before he healed back up to full health. That right there is the problem. When the jedi's force power got low he Force ran away, this is while we we're zerging. But at that point it didn't matter if he died because he had already "pwned" us into the ground.
While I do hate jedi, the problem I have specifically in pvp is the fact that they can heal for that much at a pop. It pretty much eliminates them from dying. What happened last night proves this. He can kill each person one at a time, which is what he did. Us non-jedi can't heal that much that fast. We have a 60 second wait before we can heal, 30 seconds if you use ruby bliel i believe. And no I don't care if I die. God knows i've done a lot of that this war, and every war i've been in. I've already gone through a full suit of rebel assault armor. The problem I have is that I have NO chance to kill a jedi when I choose to fight one. I can choose to escape, which works maybe 1 out of 10 times. That is the problem I have with Jedi. I have Master Bounty Hunter. Wasn't that supposed to be able to fight a jedi? Maybe I missed the patch notes that said jedi are invincible.