Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)
GreenMarine wrote:
Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.
Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.
Two things here: I think that if Spices are brough inline with chef foods - a downer effect but no filling is a nice compensation and makes the risk/reward somewhat appparent ... you'll puke uncontrolably with lowered stats for a bit ... but you can get a nice lil boost for 5 minutes on top of your chef foods. But since you used the word "punishment" above let me just say it:
I know the idea of player base wide visibility is no longer a serious thought ... but whatever "punishments" a player has to risk should be worth the use of spice compared to chef buffs which have no "risk".
And... sinceyou brought it up ... 
...
Have a look at this post if you missed it (it was burried among the PvP/PvE shouting match that you skimmed through 
) regarding an idea for Merchant / Smuggler interaction and a way to give contraband an illeagal feel with no balance / play-style hinderances (will need slight alteration - but not much - since visibility is going away).
Makeing the Underworld Profitable!
GreenMarine wrote:
The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.
This sounds well and good (and somewhat used to looking over my shoulder for BHs from playing Jedi I'm sure I'll give the PVP missions a go once or twice) ... but ...
This is still penalizing the player who choses non-PvP playstyles. "Well if you dont wanna play PvP you can't do the really cool missions" ... I mean...this isn't destroying a player base...it's a mission....and you've limited access to the really good ones to only those who PvP. You guys made the game of "optional PvP" ... you have to stick with it.
We need to come up with some significant PvE risk worthy of the same high level PvP Missions. Perhaps PvE'ers could have a high end mission which risks an experience debt (like the new jedi system).
Summary 1: The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.
Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:
- Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
- CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.
The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.
Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.
Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.
GreenMarine wrote:
The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.
What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.
I disagree. Non-smugglers should be able to gain visibility for useing illegal items, it will give all players a choice, do i want to use that more powerful gun and risk getting on the terminals, or should i play it safe? Smugglers shouldn't be the only ones punished for breaking the law.If spices and slices are made fairly powerful all dedicated pvp players will have them and i don't think they will mind a BH coming after them (especiallywith the state of BH at the moment,It will also add more to the BH game, i know a lot of players who would love to get a bounty on them so the can take on any bounty hunters that come their way
.
Rewards could include the ranking idea i mentioned in the other thread, you beat more bh's than other players and get ranked amongst the top in your server you get rewarded.
Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.
Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.
This is an issue I need to think about more before I develop a complete opinion.
If you let non-smuggler characters gain visibility, smugglers get more market share as players pay them to slice them off terminals, (this skill would be fairly limited otherwise, only customers would be jedi and you (hopefully) plan on keeping them rare...) and new smuggler items that help players avoid gaining visibility.
At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved. In this thread, let's talk about possible solutions and compromises. Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.
Vampirerobot wrote:
I like this quite a bit.
If I might suggest:
The two-tiered PvP/PvE option for all things Smuggler can be expanded to other things Smugglers do beyond just missions.
Let the Critical Missions offer components to boost spice beyond their normal effectiveness (like Bioengineered Chef food) that essentially creates "Critical Spice". The act of creating "Critical Spice" adds visibility/infamy as does getting caught with it on your person.
Critical Missions could also offer special slicing tools allowing Smugglers to execute "Critical Slices". These would be somewhat better than standard slices (some sort of percent bonus for using the special tool) and the Smuggler's visibility/infamy would increase upon using the tool.
That way you expand the Smuggler experience to all aspects, and a "Critical Smuggler" can lead a very exciting and dangerous (and profitable) existence.
I like alot of what I have seen so far, some very good ideas. I do have a comment about this post, which does tie into other posts but this one really caught my eye for some reason.
If you make it so you have to take "Critical missions" to be able to keep up in crafting or slicing then you are further punishing those that do not wish to participate in that kind of play. If you were out and about and wanted a slice or spice... would you not seek the best of the best? So you are taking alot from those that do not wish to take the critical missions in this area. I agree that some better goods or credits should be done but not to the point where you are hampering the other side again. It should be a reward not a punishment.
A solution could be like 1.5 times the normal credits offered or in the case of goods towards spice maybe make it so those that do the critical missions could have a possiblity to loot containers with multiple usesage. Like chefs that have 18 usage brandy and some that have 8 usage.... normal missions wont have any lootable "advance containers" to allow a "better value" to those purchasing the items but both mission types of players could still make the same spice. This should also apply to slicing. Now this jar thing was just thrown in there for filler but you get my idea.
The thing to remember is we want to reward those that take the higher "risk" missions NOT punish those that choose not to take them.
The critical/noncritical mission choice seems like a sound way of dealing with the PvP/PvE nature of the penalty portion.
As for 'illegal' goods and non Imperial factions, of course other factions should scan in their dominant areas. It would add greatly to the game if you had a few zones of Imp control, a few of Rebel control, and a few other and uncontrolled areas. The rebellion should have different (but as important) items as contraband. I suggested this long ago, before the Imperial Crackdown... but what about:
Medical Components
Certain Resources
Munitions Components
Various Meats or an arbitrary Organic resource
The scarcity of wartime supplies can justify all sorts of 'contraband' materials depending on the zone of control. The Rebs may be in terribly short supply of wound packs, and require search-and-seizure of any woundpacks of the B or higher type... maybe buff packs above C as well. Maybe they're short on rations, and need any meat of a given quality or better. Maybe they need a certain type of munition or weapon and will confiscate them on sight. Hell, maybe they need speeder bikes.
Having 2 (or more) lists would really help define a kind of set of 'working rules' between the Empire and the Rebellion, and it give smugglers a niche to operate in. Maybe the lists are generated or rotated on an infrequent but random basis, and a smuggler skill is in ferreting out the most recent list of 'blacklist' supplies. Having a rotating list would also tend to make crafters have some reliance on smugglers, as if it turned out to be a vital resource for their trade goods, they'd need us to help them get by the scans.
Osrim wrote:
I'm in red
GreenMarine wrote:
The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.
What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.
I disagree. Non-smugglers should be able to gain visibility for useing illegal items, it will give all players a choice, do i want to use that more powerful gun and risk getting on the terminals, or should i play it safe? Smugglers shouldn't be the only ones punished for breaking the law.If spices and slices are made fairly powerful all dedicated pvp players will have them and i don't think they will mind a BH coming after them (especiallywith the state of BH at the moment,
Rewards could include the ranking idea i mentioned in the other thread, you beat more bh's than other players and get ranked amongst the top in your server you get rewarded.
You are assuming the general populace would even care about a ranking. GCW offers a ranking structure in both factions yet less then 1% are overt and I believe it was less then 10% were even in factions at all. Not to mention it took 1200 posts just to figure out that the smugglers were split on the idea of PC BH's. I think we need to concentrate on the smuggler revamp and get it down good instead of trying to bite off way more then we could ever chew and run the possiblity of a huge backlash like whenever PC BH Marks on the general populice is brought up in the BH forums.
I do how ever like the idea of possibliy adding in new "extreme high illegal" items into the game (not existing ones which have now become commonplace) to add in the eliment of playerbase PC BH marks. It is much easier to add in a new item and explain the consequences then to take an already existing item and try to change how it is used in the life of the game. This is just a filler example, but lets say the devs add in new "anti-downer" stim (again just a filler mind ya) that counteracts the effects of a spice hit BUT is extremely illegal and if caught will gain you visibility. Now means it is new it could be easy to impliment it into PC BH Mark system without the playerbase thinking your stealing something from them... which is very bad for a game.
Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.
Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.
This is an issue I need to think about more before I develop a complete opinion.
If you let non-smuggler characters gain visibility, smugglers get more market share as players pay them to slice them off terminals, (this skill would be fairly limited otherwise, only customers would be jedi and you (hopefully) plan on keeping them rare...) and new smuggler items that help players avoid gaining visibility.
I have not come up with a solution that would be beneficial to all players yet on this idea.
At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved. In this thread, let's talk about possible solutions and compromises. Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.
Completely agree, time to move on and come up with solutions that benefit all players.
Now same thing for the crtical a novice with the critical could walk out with 5 skimmed and a master 25. That is all without increasing the visability factor as its part of a player skill. Now if they wanted to skim more then they get the visability from the extra that is taken. This way the payoff for a mission is not just in credits but you also get some of the components or spice that players want.
Darkov wrote:
Just one thing, nothing stops people who don't want to do PvP doing the cool missions.. they just have to limit the number they do inside a certain time period, assuming visibility fades over time, then they do one mission a day, instead of five a day like something risking PvP.
sbob wrote:
Another thing about the 2 missions insted of making it where you only get the cool stuff on the critical missions make those missions be larger shipments than could get from the non critical missions. For example Smugler A takes a non critical mission and has a crate of 10 ACME Spice to deliver. They can pocket it or not but they get the 10 at most. Now Smugler B comes up and wants to take a critical one they get a crate of 100 of the same ACME Spice. Bit more of a risk but the pay out in skimming is much higher for the Critical.
Also maybe have part of the smugler tree skills have to do with 'cutting the product' ya know taking some of the good stuff and replace with filler so they look to be delivering the full shipment but get a little for themselves. Make it automatic based on level (like 5%-25% from novice to master) and you can take your cut or go for more and get extra. So in the above say Smugler A was a novice and can skim 5% they get nothing (they are too new and shipment too small). But if they were a master could still walk out with 2 of their own (remeber this is SWG always round down against the player
Wrong imo. As an exemple, I am playing a Master weaponsmith/smuggler (0/4/0/4 in smuggler, just for spice and slice), ie, not the fighter type of smuggler at all. I can not defeat a stormtrooper allready, not even talking about a squad.
What makes the whole thing exiting is NOT the possibility of getting attacked by NPCs, but to become visible to BHs. Visibility should be the main "danger" of the missions, not the threat of a certain death coming from NPCs.
Also confiscating goods is fine as long as it is mission items. There should be NO WAY that personal weapons or armor should ever be confiscated by NPCs.