Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband & Smuggling Missions
HOTDOG
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:24 pm
#417
ALL OF THIS SOUNDS SO HARDCORE!!! This is GREAT-
Okay- my thoughts real quick-
AWESOME ideas GM- giving the WHOLE playerbase visibility will totally revitalize the game forever- thank you
The PvP/PvE switch is GENIOUS! So simple and near perfect- Here are my suggestions
1) Whatever state (PvP/PvE) you have selected at the time of going "BH Visible" is the condition you will be until the bounty is removed. i.e. You can't have the PvP button on then find out you have a bounty and switch it to PvE as a player BH is standing over you.
2) The person who has PvP chosen should be attacked by PvE BHs as well.
I missed like maybe 90 posts in the middle of this thing somewhere but did anyone come up with harsher consequences for being killed by a BH?
Okay- my thoughts real quick-
AWESOME ideas GM- giving the WHOLE playerbase visibility will totally revitalize the game forever- thank you
The PvP/PvE switch is GENIOUS! So simple and near perfect- Here are my suggestions
1) Whatever state (PvP/PvE) you have selected at the time of going "BH Visible" is the condition you will be until the bounty is removed. i.e. You can't have the PvP button on then find out you have a bounty and switch it to PvE as a player BH is standing over you.
2) The person who has PvP chosen should be attacked by PvE BHs as well.
I missed like maybe 90 posts in the middle of this thing somewhere but did anyone come up with harsher consequences for being killed by a BH?
JTGAlpha
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:25 pm
#418
How is it extortion? We're paying them for services they want, not need. And even if it IS extortion...uh...HELLO...SMUGGLER! CRIMINAL!! Didn't see the CubScout leader badge in our discipline anywhere 
RellikCro
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:26 pm
#419
JTGAlpha wrote:
Okay...FIRST OF ALL:
On player inconvenience:
No matter WHAT happens if something is illegal and that law is enforced, people who use and/or depend on said product are going to be inconvenienced. They're going to have to GIVE UP said item or take their chances, either with us, on their own, or both. There's no way getting around that.
Prediction: All of the above will happen. Some will stop using slices and spices. Some will just roll the dice. Others will just ask us to help.
SECOND OF ALL:
On Forced PvP: It's not forced. You run the RISK of PvP if you let your visibillity get to high. YES it will self correct and that could take time. How much is adjustable. And I'm sorry if that doesn't appeal to you but this game has time sinks, and before you go complaining about how long this one will be, we don't know how long it will be and it can always be shortened or lengthened. So slow your roll playa.
The OTHER way, which every opponent of this system has neglected, is by PAYING US to remove them from the list.
ALSO, if you don't want to wrack up MORE visibillity, we can simply escort you (smuggle you) from starport to the next. Maybe call us later and if we like you will get you back home. So...that's TWO ways in this system to avoid PvP as a civillian.
So...here's the general GREAT day for a smuggler.
Cust: Hey, can you slice this for me.
Smugg: Sure. 35% damage. X credits please.
Cust: Cool. Hey, how much for a crate of spice.
Smugg. X credits more.
Cust: Sweet. Deal. Oh, can you check the BH terminal to see if I'm getting close to a bounty or have one?
Smugg: Sure. Gonna cost you X.
Cust.: No problem.
Smugg: Bad news you got a bounty onyou.
Cust: think you can take care of that?
Smugg: Yep. X credits.
Cust: Lol You rule, but man you're gettin' all my money!
Smugg: It's what we're here for. /wink. By the way, want me to escort you into the Starport and to the next one for X credits to keep that visibillity at zero? I'm a master smuggler and have a 95% (or whatever) chance.
Cust: Sure! That'd be great. How about for Y credits?
Smugg: You're a good customer, sure. Y it is. Ready?
Nothing's forced. Unless the smuggler either fails the BH terminal slices, or gets caught in the Starport. Whole scenario takes however long it takes to slice a weapon, slice a terminal twice. Doesn't sound that bad to me.
I think you missed what we were saying is being "forced". We do not want forced PvP onto us, throw as much PvE our way as you like but do not include any pvp into that.
We are now trying to move away from the PvP/PvE discussion as we all agreed that both sides need to be equally respected in the revamp and moving onto how to incorperate a system taht does indeed respect both sides.
One of the options was to have a "switch" somewhere (be it in the options panel or popup box) that allows you to choose how you want to play. This system seems to be the easies way to respect all players while keeping a good amount of emersion into the play. If you choose PvE you simply get PvE mobs coming after you (BH's and such) and if you pick PvP you get Player controlled mobs coming after you. Everything else would be pretty much the same only that playstyle will be the choice and it is a reasonable way to respect both and all sides.
Ternque01
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:27 pm
#420
Tonteth, Menski, and everyone in this discussion. The conversation has evolved from a PvE/PvP discussion to a final resolution.
The idea is that people from the PvE "side" of the discussion want risks for their rewards. They want it. There point in not getting rid of BH's.
To some the distaste for PvP is so great that they cannot tolerate it. That is how they feel. The main point of this game has always been to have fun.
What the PvE guys/gals want is a NPC bounty hunter to be tasked with thier destruction. They want them to attack at unexpected times, and they want them to be tough.
The solution on the discussion is that an option to recieve a NPC BH needs to be included. As much as I myself WANT to be hunted by a PC BH, others want just as much NOT to.
These PvE people seem very much to want the contraband system going in just as it is written with the small change of being able to choose who the hell is taking the bounty on you.
For some, being told "I hAxx0r3d your ass n00b!" is not as comforting to them as it is to me. I live knee deep in L33t dUd3rz, lol 
Can we begin to accept that this allows everyone to finally enjoy their playstyle?
Intelerebel
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:28 pm
#421
Briefly put, if there's no risk, then we are not smugglers, we are Federal Express.
Thats right, a shipping company.
Smuggling entails risk because its illegal.
For months we've ALL been begging the devs to help us actually SMUGGLE something, let's not devalue the months of hard work spent on these many ideas, by saying "Well we wanted risk, but not THAT much risk"
Message Edited by Intelerebel on 06-17-2004 01:29 PM
RellikCro
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:30 pm
#422
Ipseck wrote:
also, they could potentially take an approach much like the one they took for Jedi.. Make the pvp portion of it content driven. ie, better merchandise for delivering/higher paying missions/higher stakes for the folks that decide to take the challenge and let the folks who just want to run missions, run missions. They need some sort of consequence though for being criminals.
Do not mix up "consequence" with "playstyle" both sides have agreed that consequences are needed. What we are discussing is respect of both sides in those consequences. PvE'ers want them in NPC form and PvP'ers want them in Player form.... so the solution we are working on is how to incorperate the consequences into the system and still respect all playerstyles.
HalasterTheBlack
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:31 pm
#423
JTGAlpha wrote:
How is it extortion? We're paying them for services they want, not need. And even if it IS extortion...uh...HELLO...SMUGGLER! CRIMINAL!! Didn't see the CubScout leader badge in our discipline anywhere
I agree with that.
but you missed my bigger point, which was in the 2nd paragraph of my reply.
Duckfat
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:36 pm
#424
Well I havent read this entire thread mainly because it is just way to long already but I did skim through it and decided to add to the length with my two cents about what others have said as well as a few tidbits of my own.
Legal Ranges & Punishment:
I disagree with the idea that you will be attacked for every infraction. There was mention that most people will not pay the fines and end up attacking anyway but how about not giving them a choice like when you slap an ST. You don't get a choice and are just fined. I think quasi-legal fines should be light and mandatory. Banned fines should be a bit heavier but offer the option to fight your way out. Highly Illegal should be the only one with auto attack. Also not sure what other things would be considered highly illegal but I think that only mission goods should be confiscated. Taking other items from players will not be well received and make scan locations ghost towns.
I disagree with the idea that you will be attacked for every infraction. There was mention that most people will not pay the fines and end up attacking anyway but how about not giving them a choice like when you slap an ST. You don't get a choice and are just fined. I think quasi-legal fines should be light and mandatory. Banned fines should be a bit heavier but offer the option to fight your way out. Highly Illegal should be the only one with auto attack. Also not sure what other things would be considered highly illegal but I think that only mission goods should be confiscated. Taking other items from players will not be well received and make scan locations ghost towns.
The part about losing faction is good but I was wondering if rebs lose reb faction or imp faction? It really doesn't make sense to lose reb faction for trying to smuggle through an imp checkpoint but it would be a worthless penalty to lose imp faction since most rebs already have -5k. Perhaps you could make it so that you lose reb faction only if you are arrested (incap/db) and not just for being scanned. The part about quasi-legal immunity for imps is fine with me as long as you raise the rank. It is reasonable for a high ranking officer like a captain or something to be immune to small offenses (quasi-legal only) but not a lowly corporal. What happens to a neutral player? Are you making it beneficial to be neutral by not having any type of faction penalty since you only mentioned factional players losing faction?
Scan Frequency:
Increasing the scan frequency IMHO is just more stress on the server. Also making static points for scans will just make those places less visited. Med centers are only used by tumblers and grinders as it is and placing them at any other building will just make people stop going there. The only place that is viable is the starport that people must go through. Like I said it should not be a single starport making that city a ghosttown but it should move from one starport to another like random checkpoints. Then people would have the choice of avoiding that starport for the time being and taking some backroads (shuttles to a different starport) or going through the scans.
Increasing the scan frequency IMHO is just more stress on the server. Also making static points for scans will just make those places less visited. Med centers are only used by tumblers and grinders as it is and placing them at any other building will just make people stop going there. The only place that is viable is the starport that people must go through. Like I said it should not be a single starport making that city a ghosttown but it should move from one starport to another like random checkpoints. Then people would have the choice of avoiding that starport for the time being and taking some backroads (shuttles to a different starport) or going through the scans.
Contraband Visibility:
I personally agree with Caylin in that just having these items should not put a player in a position where he may be subject to pvp without his consent. I understand the attempt by the devs to incorporate the bounties that were asked for but I think this is the wrong way to go about it. People argue that you have a choice in using spices and slices so by doing so you are giving your consent. The problem with this is that these things have been so much a part of gameplay already that a majority of the players will continue to use it and you will end up with just about everyone on the BH terms. I think the visibility thing should not be implemented and perhaps use a reputation system that I will talk about later for just smugglers and not your average joe with contraband. It seems a bit ridiculous for your average joe that uses spice or something to get a bounty put on his head.
I personally agree with Caylin in that just having these items should not put a player in a position where he may be subject to pvp without his consent. I understand the attempt by the devs to incorporate the bounties that were asked for but I think this is the wrong way to go about it. People argue that you have a choice in using spices and slices so by doing so you are giving your consent. The problem with this is that these things have been so much a part of gameplay already that a majority of the players will continue to use it and you will end up with just about everyone on the BH terms. I think the visibility thing should not be implemented and perhaps use a reputation system that I will talk about later for just smugglers and not your average joe with contraband. It seems a bit ridiculous for your average joe that uses spice or something to get a bounty put on his head.
I am also concerned about the possible investigation farming that may end up happening. There are a lot of things to think about here. Does your visibility reset if you are killed by a BH on a mission or do you stay on the terms forever? Staying on the terms forever would really suck but if you are removed then a smuggler can just slice all his jedi friends off the terms not caring if he gets put on the term if he will be removed after one death. After all one smuggler death only loses 22 FP instead of a bunch of your jedi friends losing lots of xp. Can a smuggler try to remove himself from the terms by slicing it? If so then he can get on the terms and just keep slicing til hes off.
Basic System:
Missions should be given out depending on two things. First the base level of the mission should be based on the level of underworld the smuggler has. Instead of pistol xp the underworld tree should be some form of smuggling xp that you get for completing missions and the scan avoidance skill set should be given within this tree.
Missions should be given out depending on two things. First the base level of the mission should be based on the level of underworld the smuggler has. Instead of pistol xp the underworld tree should be some form of smuggling xp that you get for completing missions and the scan avoidance skill set should be given within this tree.
Now I will talk about the second thing that the mission should be based on and what could get a smuggler on the BH terms, reputation (possibly implemented as the third Hutt faction). A smuggler could lose and gain this reputation in several ways. One way is through scans. If he goes through a checkpoint and avoids a scan he can gain reputation but if he is caught he loses reputation. The most important part of reputation is whether you try to cheat your employers. The only penalty mentioned for skimming from the cargo is visibility that may get you on the BH terms. But what is to stop a smuggler from just continuing to take missions and not deliver (in essence getting free spice components). Or from making the delivery and keeping the creds. So he may get killed by a BH every once in a while but he is getting tons of free stuff and making tons of creds so who cares right. However if your reputation was raised or lowered depending on how much you skimmed from your employers you could adjust the missions based on that reputation. The higher your rep the more you are trusted and the more cargo you are trusted with. The lower your rep the less you are trusted and the less cargo you are trusted with. If you keep taking the cargo eventually you will not be trusted and it will be very hard to make up your rep cuz you can only get it back a little at a time with very small missions. That and the fact that a low rep will get you on the BH terms.
Cargo Legality:
The main issue here for me is how to stop people from hiding things in droids. I think the best way would be to make the highly illegal cargo only placable in the inventory or bank and no other containers (similar to some other things like newb vouchers). I think it will be hard to stop all the contraband this way as people like to put sliced gear in bags for sale and storage but at least it will stop people from exploiting the system to do the missions.
The main issue here for me is how to stop people from hiding things in droids. I think the best way would be to make the highly illegal cargo only placable in the inventory or bank and no other containers (similar to some other things like newb vouchers). I think it will be hard to stop all the contraband this way as people like to put sliced gear in bags for sale and storage but at least it will stop people from exploiting the system to do the missions.
The idea about the encounters with authorities is good but the only way I see it happening with any real effect is in a sting. If they were to try to jump you while you were on route most people will just drive on and speed away on their vehicles. Instead you could have a sting where the authorities would spawn after you make the delivery but before you get paid. I think that would be pretty cool. You could stay and kill them to get your money or you could just run and pay the Hutts back out of your own pocket or just take the hit to your rep for not paying them.
The visible mission timer would be nice. Make it able to be toggled on or off for those that don't like to be pampered and call everyone else carebears.
Withholding Cargo:
Most of my issues here were about a penalty for taking the whole cargo and getting stuff for free but that has been covered earlier with the reputation thing.
Most of my issues here were about a penalty for taking the whole cargo and getting stuff for free but that has been covered earlier with the reputation thing.
The only other thing I wondered about was if it would be possible to fail in slicing the lock. There should be some sort of risk here. My solution would be to make these locks so that you can only use a FAN and not a clamp. My reasoning for this is that the Hutts know you are smugglers and know about clamps and I would assume they would make a lock that smugglers cant use a clamp on. This would add a 25% chance of failure and revive the currently dead FAN use. BTW failing would cost you reputation.
Cargo Contents:
I am okay with a smuggler needing to skim from the cargo but I have a request. Would it be possible to reduce the effect of skimming? Say I take a 10% cut but don't want them to know. A good smuggler would 'water down' the spice to make it look like the whole cargo was still there. Or when you make the payment you could fast talk to explain why there is less money than there should be.
I am okay with a smuggler needing to skim from the cargo but I have a request. Would it be possible to reduce the effect of skimming? Say I take a 10% cut but don't want them to know. A good smuggler would 'water down' the spice to make it look like the whole cargo was still there. Or when you make the payment you could fast talk to explain why there is less money than there should be.
Well it looks like my two cents gained interest and turned out to be about two dollars. Anyway I hope most of this makes sense and at least some of you agree with me.
Message Edited by Duckfat on 06-17-2004 11:40 AM
RellikCro
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:37 pm
#425
Tonteth wrote:
IndySWG wrote:
Ipseck wrote:
I have yet to see any good reason not to be thrust into the gcw if you are factionally aligned.
The concern here is really for the neutral smuggler. A player who BY CHOICE is avoiding the PvP aspects of the game (some people really really really hate PvP .. just cause you like doesnt mean other do/should).
A player who is nuetral - AND HAS THUS ACTIVELY CHOSEN TO AVOID PVP - shouldnt be forced to endure it just to level the profession of his choice. (the exception of course being the Jedi ... that's the special case).
Now if a nuetral player makes actions that puts him on the BH terms...that is his fault. But those actions should not be required to level / play a normal profession.
You chose to use those illegal items. You had the choice not to use them. You want the reward, but no risk.
no Tonteth, he never said consequences should not be had for using or owning illegal items. It is YOU that can not get over the PvP aspect of the only recourse for consequences and thus you are one of the reasons I am so dead set against anykind of PvP. You are single minded and very closed off of any other options and fail to respect the fact not everyone agrees with your playstyle.
Consequence was not the issue it is how to respect all playstyles while dealing out those consquences. I am all for consequences for my illegal activies but I am not nor want to be any part of any PvP aspect of the game. You need to respect that as much as I respect that you love PvP, I am all for PvP content and the system currently in seems to work and allows seperate play from PvP and PvE. As long as that mutual respect is given both sides can find ways of implimenting consequences in their own playstyle.
Geevo
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:38 pm
#426
3things on the 'forced PVP issue'
1, how about having the system do a check ... do you have a PvP death (or kill) in the last 30 days? If so, PvP bounty.
2, e-mail all players @ revamp ... explain the possibility of PvP for Smugglers (or anyone else that happens to be placed on the BH terminals ... how to avoid it ... etc.
3, When someone gets trained for Novice Smuggler, prior to accepting they get a warning message from the NPC trainer ... explain the possibility ... something like (if it was me):
"Hello Geevo Deem, I see you want to start the adventure of a lifetime. Before I teach you the basics I must warn you that the journey is both difficult and long. Failed missions and carelessness may result in very unfortunate reactions such as having the most dedicated and trecherous Bounty Hunters after you. I will train you if you accept this danger, but if you do ... odds are at some point in your life, you will be hunted and probably killed."
"Hello Geevo Deem, I see you want to start the adventure of a lifetime. Before I teach you the basics I must warn you that the journey is both difficult and long. Failed missions and carelessness may result in very unfortunate reactions such as having the most dedicated and trecherous Bounty Hunters after you. I will train you if you accept this danger, but if you do ... odds are at some point in your life, you will be hunted and probably killed."
Select Yes: Get Novice Smuggler
Select No: Get "I can understand your apprehension, if you do change your mind I will gladly accept you into the Smuggler community."
Select No: Get "I can understand your apprehension, if you do change your mind I will gladly accept you into the Smuggler community."
This would add to the immersion and allow players to actually choose if they want the risk ... it doesn't really say "PvP" but it clearly says they can be killed.
Message Edited by Geevo on 06-17-2004 01:44 PM
RellikCro
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:39 pm
#427
Yes risk/reward is still what we want, but in PvE. We do not want to be thrust into PvP.
Mentski wrote:
GreenMarine wrote:
Items will now have a range of legality. The following legal ranges will be implemented.
- Quasi-legal. A player caught with quasi-legal goods will be attacked.
- Banned. A player caught with banned goods will be attacked. The player’s visibility will increase slightly for each violation.
- Highly Illegal. A player caught with highly illegal goods will be attacked, the goods confiscated (if the attacked player is defeated), and the player’s visibility will increase. Highly illegal objects cannot be transported via the standard travel system by anyone other than a smuggler. The player must use the new smuggler travel system in order to move highly illegal goods. (This new system will be discussed later.)
I'm not sure why people are worried about this being Non-consentual PvP, the way I see this is what GM means by "caught" is that you are scanned and then found with them, just like it is now, or you just open fire on the stormies scanning you.
The only difference is that visability/confiscation is added with the level of contraband.
Using Banned levelobjects is going to be your "consent", remember, you will have to fail a scan to get the visability, and we, as smugglers should (I say should, because as it is, our modifiers dont seem to work to well atm, needs fixing!), be able to hide the Banned objects in our inventory and the people closely grouped with us.
Risk/Reward is what we wantedit's what we get, working with illegal goods shouldnt be an easy ride, but it should be easier for us. And thats why people should come to us.
Signed: One Wookiee Smuggler who can't PvP for jack due to lack of Defence yet has a damn good go anyway
Ryutek
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:40 pm
#428
That is also an idea I would support Geevo. The only concern there is what about those Smugglers who want to be smugglers, but want an option to have PvE encounters instead of PvP encounters? If left the way you describe then you technically aliennate those Neutral Smugglers that do not want to PvP...
DRWolfe
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:41 pm
#429
JudoBike2000 wrote:I would like to suggest a different type of Master Smuggler/Smuggler mission...because I feel a Smuggler should be a TRUE CRIMINAL entity. I like alot of the ideas about Smuggling Goods already but how about these 2 ideas?How about kidnapping missions? I see it as a sort of mission where a player must kidnap a NPC noble, and take the noble to a "contact". Once the noble is taken to the contact the Smuggler gets a reward. I am talking about a NICE reward too...but these sorts of missions would be on a certain timer where it couldn't be done all the time to make massive amounts of cash. Depending on your abilities as a Smuggler the noble might try and make a break for it, but certain skill-mods discourage this. Master Smugglers would have a much better chance of pulling the kidnap caper off.Secondly, I would like to see Breaking and Entering missions. Your contact tells you of a certain item (perhaps art-work, or gems, or a special scientific component). This type of mission is "instanced" and a NPC's LAB/HOUSE/BUSINESS spawns on a certain planet. You get to the place and you have to use your Slicing skills to bypass an alarm system. Once inside (after a successful slice) you search the premise and locate the item desired by your contact. With JTL out at that point you hop in your ship and make your way back to the contact. But perhaps on the way you get ambushed by Master BH, or some NPC space pirates. If you fail the mission something rotten happens to you. Maybe you lose the item, your ship is destroyed, and you lose faction with your contact.Just ideas...
Sorry, but no. I'm a Smuggler, not a Thug or a Thief. We're criminals, but a much higher class of criminal.