Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)
JTGAlpha
Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:55 pm
#404
But you DO. You DO find PvP more distasteful than PvE. You just said so. "I simply don't enjoy killing other people's characters."
So I'll rephrase the question, since you're not answering it from the dying side, let's try it from the other end. What is the difference between killing someone's character and killing a rogue fambaa?
And I'm NOT making one person out of all of you. I simply do NOT understand where your dislike for PvP comes from, because you don't not PvP for the reason I don't. According to YOU you don't not do it for the reason silversaber and other hardcore PvE'ers don't. And according to you're "I'm me, deal with me," statement you're not doing it for any of the other reasons I've mentioned which are the commonly held reasons. So I have to understand why, which means I have to ask questions.
HOTDOG
Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:28 pm
#405
No offense taken, and certainly none meant- If I did so I apologize.
The reason I want PvP in is: there are players who like to play that way just as it is equallyimportant to me that PvEers have the choice to avoid PvP situations should they choose not to play that way.
The system as I described to Kahbaal on page 17 does that. The problem we are having is that some people think strict PvEers are being denied rewards. Which is not true.
Within that system the allowance for the high risk (pvp consequences)missions to recieve more (not different or better) rewards than the low risk (pve consequences) ones because:
1) PvP is more difficult to overcome
2) The missions would be harder in their PvE portions as well.
So...
A PvE only player can earn the same amount of rewards- without the risk of PvP- by completing more missions.
A PvE player can also actually DO the PvP missions but then they would have to monitor the frequency that they did them in order to avoid PvP encounters.
A person who normallydoes a low risk missionand tries a high risk mission for the "rush" is rewarded appropriately fordoing so (If I got the same amount ofXP for killing a Crazed Durni as I did a regularDurni that would...suck).
I personally think the system is fair and goes out of it's way to make sure a person that will never be able to say that they were just attacked by another player without having given their concent to be in that situation.
Some disagree with me and that's okay but I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that PvE can be programmed to match PvP.
SBRD0C
Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:01 am
#406
majorslappy wrote:
As it seems you will both not be dissuaded and I know that I will not, perhaps we should move the discussion on to other things. Know this however, that I will not stop talking to GM or the other devs about PvP and PvE being separate and equally valid and enjoyable playstyles and I will talk against any attempt to make PvP the default or the constant for PvE players.
PvE is standard, it is what everyone MUST do and learn to deal with to some degree. PvP is Auxillary, learning to survive PvP is different and not a required part of the game, additionally, PvP is not nearly as predictable. Thus I see no reason why choosing to participate in PvP should not have additional bonuses.
As foryour argument here... it is completely valid.. PvP is NOT the default and never will be the constant for those who don't want to participate in it, and it also was not the point of my argument to say otherwise.
Edit:
Also I wear encumbrance Sliced Composite that is 56-60% effective.. I do not have millions to spend either. thanks to the slices though I often wear it unbuffed, which helps to survive the random PvE encounters stated above. You need not be a millionare, this suit I got for a large slicing order on top of my pay.. If you happen to play on starsider I can hook you up with an armorsmith I know...
Message Edited by SBRD0C on 07-06-2004 02:06 PM
majorslappy
Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:45 am
#407
lol I can hardly believe you said that. Men and women fly, glide, float, and otherwise make their way through the air all the time. It's called technology and it doesn't take much. I refer you to the Montgolfier brothers in France in he 18th century. 
JTGAlpha
Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:46 am
#408
It IS riskier for the reasons I explained. Read the post again. What I mean by riskier is your are RISKING having those unpleasant encounters which turn you off to PvP. That's the risk. Read it again about the "Killer" playstyle. That is a common and accepted playstyle in MMO's. It was a part of the Bartle test. And "Killer" doesn't mean "Griefer" either. Again, re-read my post for OTHER purposes and outlets and reasons for the Killer playstyle. I'm just saying it's unfair to say PvP is NOT less risky, when you obviously find SOMETHING about it that you don't want to risk encountering. You don't enjoy the good parts of PvP enough to risk the parts you DON'T enjoy. Others do. And there's nothing wrong with either. I just think it unfair to not call that risk, and to ignore the validity of that. The AI is less challenging than people. Eventually I WILL beat the AI. It's a matter of perseverance. Eventually I MIGHT beat a player of higher personal skill if I get lucky. It's a matter of chance and tactics. Furthermore there IS more risk, but it's not a risk to the CHARACTER that you're avoiding, but a risk to YOU the player. And that's fine too, but don't try and downplay that risk that others are willing to accept. And I also think it's HIGHLY unfair to call all PvP'ers griefers, which silversaber is want to do, given his extreme feelings on the matter and it's these factual points I wanted to clear up.
Remember, I'm a PvE'er too, but we can't HAVE this discussion if both sides aren't completely honest.
majorslappy
Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:49 am
#409
JTGAlpha,
Having some 12 year old go "nanny nanny boo boo" doesn't bother me in the slightest. I find it rather amusing. That is no risk at all.
majorslappy
Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:53 am
#411
Because I don't find it fun. I don't want to make my game enjoyable by killing someone else's character.
BreakPoint
Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:21 pm
#412
I'm a bounty hunter and I must say wow. You guys are actually making progress on a revamp. And to think most of you guys actually support the BH smuggler missions. Very respectable. If any smuggler needs help for me (or doesn't want me to db when this enters the first few times, 
) then I'm all up for it seeing this community. It's awesome to see a community that doesn't whine and puts their ideas together in an organized manner. And all with a dev in close proximity.
) then I'm all up for it seeing this community. It's awesome to see a community that doesn't whine and puts their ideas together in an organized manner. And all with a dev in close proximity.GreenMarine can the BH's borrow you after the Smuggler revamp? We have some great ides going on as well and we'll need you, hehe. Check out starscream's idea here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=bounty_hunter&message.id=241402
majorslappy
Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:36 am
#413
JTGAlpha,
I'll answr this as simply as I can and then we have to move on to something else.
I like certain foods and like others less and like others not at all. I like corn. I like butterbeans less than corn. I don't like cauliflower. I don't find cauliflower "distasteful." The word distasteful brings with it a truckload of connotations that don't apply here for me to PvP. I don't find it distasteful, I simply don't like it. There is a world of difference.
silversaber
Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:17 am
#414
HOTDOG wrote:
Some disagree with me and that's okay but I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that PvE can be programmed to match PvP.
To me it would be easy. The scriptors can easily give any NPC an overwelming advantage over any PC.
NPC's can be scripted to have fargreater HAM pools and equipment than and PC could have.
An PC BH has to actually find you going through the whole tracking/droid investigation phase. The NPC doesnt have to do this since it is an NPC program, all it has to do is spawn the thugs right on top of you.
Manage to hop on your speeder and get away? Have the NPC's pull out speeders (no 15 sec wait for them!) and give chase! Or if this isnt possible, Have themwarp on top of you when you stop later.
If you manage to eludeyour persuersto the point of reaching a shuttleport and moving to a new planet, that can be a big problem for a player, sincehe has to rely on tracking droids again. But not the NPC thugs, all the program has to do is spawn them on top of you again when you reach the other side, perhapse after a 5 min timer.
You managed to actually log out to avoid your persuers? Well, the PC BH is SoL.Better lucknext time. But not the NPC thugs! 5 mins after you relog in, they respawn right on top of you and were off again!
Ect etc..
NPC's could be FAR harder than anyPC, because they would haveseveral advantages that PC's coild never have.
It's all in how you look at it. All I want the Devs to do is consider my above example, but if they have made up thier minds that PvP is superior from the outset and never even try to look into it, then this arguement is truely dead.
JTGAlpha
Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:30 pm
#415
But "I don't like killing another player" has it's own connotations separate from, "I don't like corn." Because really, what it sounds like is, "I don't like corn from a can. At all. I refuse to eat it. But I like Corn on the cob just fine." Now, it's not unusual to like corn on the cob MORE than corn from the can, but to actively DISLIKE corn from a can far more than corn on the cob, when, deep down there isn't much difference, both are made from the same things, both ARE the same things, but corn in a can has a very mild addition, is strange.
Like I said, we have established there is little to no difference in risk from the actual DEATH of a PvP and a PvE. So the player who dies isn't suffereing anything extra by virtue of the death. So why is it more preferrable to do one than the other?
PS: If you talk food then yes, distasteful (as in, you don't like the taste) would actually be perfect, wouldn't it? 
RougeSmuggler
Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:12 pm
#416
silversaber wrote:
HOTDOG wrote:
Some disagree with me and that's okay but I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that PvE can be programmed to match PvP.
To me it would be easy. The scriptors can easily give any NPC an overwelming advantage over any PC.
NPC's can be scripted to have fargreater HAM pools and equipment than and PC could have.
An PC BH has to actually find you going through the whole tracking/droid investigation phase. The NPC doesnt have to do this since it is an NPC program, all it has to do is spawn the thugs right on top of you.
Manage to hop on your speeder and get away? Have the NPC's pull out speeders (no 15 sec wait for them!) and give chase! Or if this isnt possible, Have themwarp on top of you when you stop later.
If you manage to eludeyour persuersto the point of reaching a shuttleport and moving to a new planet, that can be a big problem for a player, sincehe has to rely on tracking droids again. But not the NPC thugs, all the program has to do is spawn them on top of you again when you reach the other side, perhapse after a 5 min timer.
You managed to actually log out to avoid your persuers? Well, the PC BH is SoL.Better lucknext time. But not the NPC thugs! 5 mins after you relog in, they respawn right on top of you and were off again!
Ect etc..
NPC's could be FAR harder than anyPC, because they would haveseveral advantages that PC's coild never have.
It's all in how you look at it. All I want the Devs to do is consider my above example, but if they have made up thier minds that PvP is superior from the outset and never even try to look into it, then this arguement is truely dead.
Silversaber, the system you just outlined above certainly doesn't seem like very much fun at all. Not only to those that would want PvP Bounties, but those who enjoy PvE as well. You are correct when you say that we can make AI extremely difficult. We can make it impossible. We could give them Mandalorian Armor, and Krayt Dragon Mounts with Jet Packs strapped to their backs. Then to top it off we can give them Death Star Laser Canons. (Mini-Size that is).
I would consider an AI like that to be Strong. Impossible to Kill. But not a better threat then a Player Bounty. The difference between the two is that the player is a bajillion times smarter then the AI will ever be.
Like you said, the player has to track their prey down. They have to follow the target, and decided upon the best time to attack. They know when to pull away, or when to call for help. They know which weapon is best to use on their target. They'll know the best tactics to get their prey.
You've illustrated the sad fact that the AI can't compete with the player. That the only way to make the AI threat worthwhile is by giving it Godlike powers, which in the end destroys the fun that the Bounty System was created for.
-red