Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)
HOTDOG
Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:53 am
#391
majorslappy wrote:
SBRDOC,
I am glad you defined "risk," but it doesn't hold up logically. I had had many encounters that I could not ignore that were all PvE. I've been knocked right off my bike by tusken kings and other high level tuskens and then chased and killed by them. I have been knocked off my bike by nightsisters galore. Chased down by groups of nightsister sentinels and protectors and squashed flat by a nightsister elder more than once and none of the time by my own "choosing."
By he way, from your description of the encounter, it didn't seem like much of a challenge for you.
Well, we don't know that as SBRDOC got away-
But here is another example:
PvE:
I-G88 is an NPC BH that spawns on Corellia (by the way if that sentence made sense to you, you play too much SWG).
He is quite the challenge if you are in one of the starter professions. You can't put any states or anything on him 'cause he's a droid BUT if you get yourself a fast enough pistol and kite him you'll win 99% of the time. He will keep coming at you even though it is obvious he is going to lose that battle.
PvP:
Greedo is a lower level BH who just took a mission out on you. He finds you in a buff line at the Coronet Starport. You lay some hard hits on him and he realizes he's in trouble so he splits before you can incap him.
An hour later Greedo returns when he finds you on Dantooine hunting Huurtons. This time Greedo is buffed- and well fed. The battle is close but you manage to escape.
An hour and a half after that you return to get re-buffed as yours have worn off and guess who is in the starport waiting for you- That's right, Greedo figured your buffs would wear down sooner or later and you would return here. Now he's got you...
Now, lets look at a PvE creature that IS a challenge-
PvE
The Bull Rancor. If ya wanna take one of these babies- barely get in range with your weapon, go prone and drop a bleed shot on him then immediately peace out. Run out to 100m away.This way you won't have to deal with any of the other Bull Rancors around him. As he runs to you let loose with all you got- lay as many states on himas you can. If things get hairy- BURST RUN till youloose him.
PvP
You are in the starport and you see Greedo who you know has a bounty on you. You don't think he notices you yet so you decide to leave the city as quickly as possible. As you head for the gate you notice floating red numbers by the wall- BOOM! an explode-o-droid has gone off. Greedo anticipated that you would run and is spamming eyeshots at you causing blindness- That's when you notice that it's NOT Greedo that's hitting you. It's someone else! He is in a GROUP. You pull yourswoop in an effort to get away.
Greedo:He's trying to run. Get HIM!
and that's just one example of how that could have gone down. Greedo could have searched websites on the best way to destroy you. He could have bribed people to find your hangouts. He could have hired someone to get a slice from you to distract you while he snuck up and popped you.
Also I didn't even mention that Greedo could have been an A-h0le and called you names and spit on you as well.
So you see the unpredictability and resourcefulness of PvP makes it HARDER to overcome.
Personally, I have a lot of fun kiting I-G88 and pulling (well maybe not Rancors but) Sharnaffs one at a time from their herds and killing them. PvP is NOT better than PvE. but it is HARDER and therefore more RISKY. No one is saying the "low-risk" missions are going to be easier- They are "low-risk" because you don't have to worry about a PvP consequence which would be harder to overcome and sometimes very unpleasant.
SBRD0C
Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:53 am
#392
majorslappy wrote:
SBRDOC,
By he way, from your description of the encounter, it didn't seem like much of a challenge for you.
Thats the Abridged version, there was at least an extra ten minutes of me trying to shake him prior to storing my bike, plus there was a good 500m run to get into the city,since I having no Terrain Negotiation he did manage to get into firing range before I reached the city, and it got rather hairy (Panic shot DID actually help me for once)... was a rather fun encounter really. Hopefully a pre-cursor to the stuff that will happen from BHs. and it was DEFINATLY a harder challenge than anything PvE that you will encounter outside of Mos Entha on Tatooine on a normal day.
I don't often Choose the risk of riding my bike on Dath, but occasionally, it HAS happened where I get forcibly Removed from my bike.. all it took to escape was to stand up and get back on the bike.. as I never goto DATH unarmored and no surface MoB can kill me fast enough to stop my escape.
JTGAlpha
Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:03 pm
#393
Well it's not like the stay dead or you're cancelling their account? it's not an act of barbarism. It's an action in a game, and if you're roleplaying then it's a strategic maneuver. I mean they put it in for a reason. And if you don't believe others aren't afraid of that risk, look at that silversaber quote that one guy has in his sig about how griefers have permanently ruined any fun had in PvP. Even if you personally aren't afraid of that risk in particular, most people who don't PvP, especially people who REALLY don't like PvP are. And that's completely understandable. People in PvP can lose all perspective and rationality, and all too frequently ignore their better angels. But that's not fair to label EVERYONE in PvP that way, which has happened in this thread, and it's also to act like all PvP'ers are blood thirsty barbarians. Even the way you simply stated you don't enjoy "killing other people's characters" had connotations and implications of disgust with the idea which I simply don't understand. It is a game after all, and as you guys have pointed out, there is little difference between a PvE death and a PvP death in terms of mechanical risk. So why is that so abhorrant to you?
majorslappy
Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:09 pm
#394
JTG,
I am not Silversabre. DId you ever see me say that? I don't care what someone else said, and I would appreciate it if you did generalize PvE players that way. I am not someone else. I am me.
In any case, I don't care about the barbarism or any such thing. I care about ruining the enjoyment of the game for someone that doesn't want to have their character killed. I don't find it enjoyable.
What do you get out of it? What are you thinking as you kill that other player's character?
JTGAlpha
Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:16 pm
#395
But I HAVE to address silversabers position because:
A) it's more common
B) it was the position I was initially addressing when you took issue with what I said.
I'm not making generalizations about PvE'ers here. I am making an informed observation formed after participating in debates about this very subject for the last 2 and half years.
And how does having your character killed ruin your enjoyment? That's what I don't understand. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm trying to illustrate where the fundamental disconnects between the philosophies lie. My observation about your simple statement was simply that. And your response that you find it ruinous to kill another players character implies that you find it distasteful and detrimental to fun. As for them not wanting their character killed, then how is PvE any different? They're character will still get killed? If it's not the people who kill your character that is the problem, then how is the actual death of the character a hardship, especially more so in PvP than PvE since it can happen in PvE as well.
As for what am I thinking when I kill another players character? Nothing as I've never killed another player's character. I told you, I'm a PvE'er. I have nothing against PvP, and I have no problem with GM's original design, as either a smuggler or a consumer of contraband. If another player kills me, I think nothing of it (it's happened once or twice), it is no more frustrating to me than being killed by a Squill or a Fambaa.
HOTDOG
Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:34 pm
#396
majorslappy wrote:
lol I can hardly believe you said that. Men and women fly, glide, float, and otherwise make their way through the air all the time. It's called technology and it doesn't take much. I refer you to the Montgolfier brothers in France in he 18th century.
I didn't think I would have to say it but I MEANT under their OWN POWER.
Just to be clear:
A human being, completely naked and under their own will, CANNOT fly.
Now, if you have any problems with my argument that PvP is harder than PvE from that same post I would be more than willing to discuss them.
majorslappy
Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:35 pm
#397
JTG,
You did lump me in with everyone who doesn't like the trash talk. I don't care about the trash talk. Please don't do that. You did generalize when you lumped me in with others who do care about that. I don't
As to you having never engaged in PvP, I can't see how you have an informed opinion when you have never engaged in PvP at all. It seems at this point that you are simply arguing to argue. I don't understand your desire to make PvP a large part of the game that PvE players will dislike.
I want you to have PvP content if that is your deisre. I want you to be chased and outthought and shot at and hit by players, if that is what you want.
I don't want any of that. Please comment to GM that process should be equal for all, not just PvPers. IF you want everyone to have a fun time playing the game then your goal should be to be inclusive. You are not striving for that it seems. You seem to want to move the focus of the game and all high level content in the game to an entirely different format.
(Notice I am addressing your comments and not someone else's?)
majorslappy
Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:41 pm
#398
In your statement about flying, You weren't clear. You made a sweeping statement that was meant to be derogatory and patronizing and I recognized it as such, Please try to keep it civil in here.
majorslappy
Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:46 pm
#399
Hotdog,
Please note that I have nothing against your or for you. I just prefer people to communicate not talk down to one another. If I insulted you, I apologize.
I am simply trying to understand why you and JTGAlpha want to have PvP content so much. I want to understand why you find it fun. And I want you to have it, but not for me or for anyone else that does not want it.
majorslappy
Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:05 pm
#400
I do have something against my terrible typing. I really should get a better laptop. 
JTGAlpha
Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:18 pm
#401
"You did lump me in with everyone who doesn't like the trash talk. I don't care about the trash talk. Please don't do that. You did generalize when you lumped me in with others who do care about that. I don't"
I was trying to discern where YOUR problem lie. You're arguing with me and I'm simply trying to discuss with you. I didn't call your grandma a hooker, I misunderstood your position, and the entire point of this has been to discern where the problems truly lay, because there are misapprehensions on both sides. Getting offended over nothing isn't going to help.
"As to you having never engaged in PvP, I can't see how you have an informed opinion when you have never engaged in PvP at all. It seems at this point that you are simply arguing to argue. I don't understand your desire to make PvP a large part of the game that PvE players will dislike."
1) Never said I've never engaged in PvP. Just that I've never killed anyone. I'm not very good, and I've only been in it a couple of times.
2) I CAN have an informed opinion because I've BEEN in this discussion both on these boards and the last one and the beta boards for 2 and a half years. Hell I've argued this WITH silversaber et. al. on the Beta boards. I remember that particular fight rather well. I've heard these arguements and read them and responded to them for a very long time. I've also heard the dev's take on them as well. I'm not a soldier in real life either, but that doesn't make me uninformed about the military.
"I want you to have PvP content if that is your deisre. I want you to be chased and outthought and shot at and hit by players, if that is what you want."
Good. Thanks.
"I don't want any of that. Please comment to GM that process should be equal for all, not just PvPers. IF you want everyone to have a fun time playing the game then your goal should be to be inclusive. You are not striving for that it seems. You seem to want to move the focus of the game and all high level content in the game to an entirely different format"
There is going to be content for PvE'ers as well. But the rewards for PvP might be greater. And this is the disconnect. You are maintaining that PvP has no different risk than PvE. I disagree. In the process of this discussion I am trying to discern where the problem with PvP deaths lie, because it's apparently very distasteful to many PvE'ers both according to them IN THIS THREAD and to several years worth of polls by these same developers and studies by sociologists and industry leaders.
For instance, you said that you thought killing another players character ruined their fun. This was your essential problem with PvP. Yet, PvE'ers have argued in THIS very thread that PvP death is no worse, and in fact, from a mechanical stand point, less risky than PvE death. So I'm trying to find out where the problem with ME killing someone is WORSE than a Fambaa killing someone. Because you seem to find it distasteful for some reason, and avoid it. Yet you say there are NO EXTRA risks to PvP. So I'm trying to find out WHAT you are avoiding in PvP that is NOT a part of PvE that is NOT an additional risk. It is not logically adding up to me. Either PvE death is no less risky than PvP death and they are equal in terms of difficulty and risk, or PvP is a risking LESS fun by virtue of having to "kill" or "be killed" by other players. Because BOTH have been said when those two statements seem incongrous to each other.
JTGAlpha
Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:22 pm
#402
Oh, and I'm not arguing to argue. I'm trying to get to what I feel is a root cause of friction between the two camps. Me? I'm a live and let live kinda guy. But we're not EVER going to make any progress if we throw our hands up. I'm trying to have a rational discussion, and I'm approaching the part I don't understand by picking it apart. I'm not trying to generalize you, or categorize you. I'm speaking from my own observations and experience and from what I've learned reading these boards. There are issues here that we're too easily just getting mad at one another and giving up on that if we explore them CALMLY we might be able to untangle.
majorslappy
Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:26 pm
#403
Once again JTG, I have not made those statements. I do not have a conflicting opinion. I don't find PvP or PvE any more risky or distasteful than the other. I simply don't enjoy killing other people's characters. Please one more time, do not lump all people into one pile.
I know you have been having these discussions a long time, but don't make one person out of us all. Please when you discuss with me, please actually discuss with me. I am not silversaber. I am not you. I am not anyone else but me. I wasn't here in beta. I wasn't here before beta. I wasn't here when you started in the forums. I am me, not every other person you have ever talked to. Please when you are talking to me address me, not the rest of the community.