Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)
at the lower mission. 
RougeSmuggler wrote:
silversaber wrote:
HOTDOG wrote:
Some disagree with me and that's okay but I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that PvE can be programmed to match PvP.
To me it would be easy. The scriptors can easily give any NPC an overwelming advantage over any PC.
NPC's can be scripted to have fargreater HAM pools and equipment than and PC could have.
An PC BH has to actually find you going through the whole tracking/droid investigation phase. The NPC doesnt have to do this since it is an NPC program, all it has to do is spawn the thugs right on top of you.
Manage to hop on your speeder and get away? Have the NPC's pull out speeders (no 15 sec wait for them!) and give chase! Or if this isnt possible, Have themwarp on top of you when you stop later.
If you manage to eludeyour persuersto the point of reaching a shuttleport and moving to a new planet, that can be a big problem for a player, sincehe has to rely on tracking droids again. But not the NPC thugs, all the program has to do is spawn them on top of you again when you reach the other side, perhapse after a 5 min timer.
You managed to actually log out to avoid your persuers? Well, the PC BH is SoL.Better lucknext time. But not the NPC thugs! 5 mins after you relog in, they respawn right on top of you and were off again!
Ect etc..
NPC's could be FAR harder than anyPC, because they would haveseveral advantages that PC's coild never have.
It's all in how you look at it. All I want the Devs to do is consider my above example, but if they have made up thier minds that PvP is superior from the outset and never even try to look into it, then this arguement is truely dead.
Silversaber, the system you just outlined above certainly doesn't seem like very much fun at all. Not only to those that would want PvP Bounties, but those who enjoy PvE as well. You are correct when you say that we can make AI extremely difficult. We can make it impossible. We could give them Mandalorian Armor, and Krayt Dragon Mounts with Jet Packs strapped to their backs. Then to top it off we can give them Death Star Laser Canons. (Mini-Size that is).
I would consider an AI like that to be Strong. Impossible to Kill. But not a better threat then a Player Bounty. The difference between the two is that the player is a bajillion times smarter then the AI will ever be.
Like you said, the player has to track their prey down. They have to follow the target, and decided upon the best time to attack. They know when to pull away, or when to call for help. They know which weapon is best to use on their target. They'll know the best tactics to get their prey.
You've illustrated the sad fact that the AI can't compete with the player. That the only way to make the AI threat worthwhile is by giving it Godlike powers, which in the end destroys the fun that the Bounty System was created for.
-red
Red , im not posting here for for the Bounty Hunters fun.They already have PvP prey, and thats the Jedi. As far as im concerned, this just gravey for them.
Iam sick and tired ofhearing over and over that PvP is HARDER andCHALLENGINGthan PvE and thus BETTERbecause of the players intellegence, and thus PvE should hold hind teat to PvP in rewards.
While NPC's AIcannot compete in many ways, my post clearly shows that this can be EASILY conpensated (and maybe a bit over kill as far as I took it).
Where did you EVER get the idea that PvErs didnt want ahard challenge? Was it because we dont want PvP? Well your so wrong its pathetic.
My scenerio was an harsh example because I wanted to show how far this could be taken. It could even be taken farther! How about 2-3 waves of these thugs that cannot be avoided!
But it can also be scaled back to the point that it is roughly equal in difficulty to the challenge of PvP.
Just because of the players intellegence can you or anyone else say PvP is superiour to PvE in any way.
It is simpley NOT true.
I never said an NPC couldn't be made hard to beat. In fact I DID say "you could make an unbeatable NPC but where would the fun be in that-"
The point is an NPC is not going to tell JTGALPHA to get a slice from you and while you are slicing his weapon, come sneaking up behind you, explode a droid & spam eyeshot on you 'till you're rolling out of the cloning center.
AND no matter what kind of NPC they do send after you- even if it is randomized- it won't be long before you figure out a pattern and learn how to defeat whatever they program to come after you. In fact- I would guess about a month after the revamp you could go to a site like Allakhazam and read a guide on how to defeat the NPC BH 100% of the time.
Example: Krayt Dragons:
Back in the day people were soloing them and the DEVs said "they were not made to be solo'ed" so the amp-ed the HAM, etc, etc. Well, guess what? People have learned once again how to solo a Krayt (Go to the Swordsman forum if you want some tips).
A PC BH is unpredictable. He might me super strong and buffed to the bone. She might be a total newb. They might be crafty and do things to distract you while the sneak up on you OR they might hunt you in GROUPS. You don't know, you CAN'T know and you can NEVER read a guide to instruct you EXACTLY how to defeat them 100% of the time.
I think that is part of the fun of PvE- Figuring out how to defeat the program. Nothing wrong with that- I love it!
YES. You can program NPC to be unbeatable- you can program them to come in WAVES of unbeatablity. BUT YOU CANNOT PROGRAM A MACHINE TO THINK, ADAPT, DECIEVE AND OVERCOME BETTER THAN A HUMAN BEING.
Thus- PvP is Harder to overcome than PvE- why would the DEVs waste time trying to do it when they have PC Bounty Hunters who want to hunt and PC smugglers who want to be hunted?
That is content that writes itself every day.
And I NEVER said PvP is better than PvE because that's not true. They equal in a LOT of ways but PvP by it's nature is harder to overcome.
If you still don't believe me think about this:
Take 2 characters and give them the exact same attributes and abilites. Give them the same guns and armor. Make them twins in every way and give them the same Mark.
Now allow a player to play one and program the other.
9 times out of 10, who do you think is going to kill the Mark? Honestly.
Message Edited by HOTDOG on 07-08-2004 08:42 PM
Message Edited by HOTDOG on 07-08-2004 08:43 PM
HOTDOG wrote:
You are missing the point saber-
I never said an NPC couldn't be made hard to beat. In fact I DID say "you could make an unbeatable NPC but where would the fun be in that-"
The point is an NPC is not going to tell JTGALPHA to get a slice from you and while you are slicing his weapon, come sneaking up behind you, explode a droid & spam eyeshot on you 'till you're rolling out of the cloning center.
Ummm and this is different how from just having a script randomly spawning a exploding droid while your using a vender, and having a NPC spam eye-shot on you untill you clone?
AND no matter what kind of NPC they do send after you- even if it is randomized- it won't be long before you figure out a pattern and learn how to defeat whatever they program to come after you. In fact- I would guess about a month after the revamp you could go to a site like Allakhazam and read a guide on how to defeat the NPC BH 100% of the time.
And why does it have to be a certain NPC? Why cannot it be a random selection of equally tough opponents, yet indifferent in severalways? All of which canspawn immediatly or delay to up to several days. And is programed to spawn when your doing something that takes all of your attention, say dureinga Night Sistermission? Almost all strageties I have ever seen posted is for NPC's that the player has control on the enguagement, so you can plan out on where and how to kill it. If the NPC has surprise on its side, and will spawn on you anywhere including in your house, there there is very little stragetyyou can use, other than run or fight.
Example: Krayt Dragons:
Back in the day people were soloing them and the DEVs said "they were not made to be solo'ed" so the amp-ed the HAM, etc, etc. Well, guess what? People have learned once again how to solo a Krayt (Go to the Swordsman forum if you want some tips).
Yeap, like I said, a NPC in which a stragety can be used because the player has the initiative, and chooses when and where to fight.
A PC BH is unpredictable. He might me super strong and buffed to the bone. She might be a total newb. They might be crafty and do things to distract you while the sneak up on you OR they might hunt you in GROUPS. You don't know, you CAN'T know and you can NEVER read a guide to instruct you EXACTLY how to defeat them 100% of the time.
While all the possible permutations cannot be scripted, this can be conpensated by making the NPC tougher than any player could be, and be able to do things not player can, like shooting you through a wall.
I think that is part of the fun of PvE- Figuring out how to defeat the program. Nothing wrong with that- I love it!
Thats NOT whats fun for me. Fun for me is overcoming the obstical the NPC presents for me, not trying to defeat a program.
YES. You can program NPC to be unbeatable- you can program them to come in WAVES of unbeatablity.
BUT YOU CANNOT PROGRAM A MACHINE TO THINK
Agreed.
, ADAPT, DECIEVE AND OVERCOME BETTER THAN A HUMAN BEING.
Adapt and decieveis possible.Ifthe script changes any NPC your talking to into a damn tough opponent completely by surprise,(dunno if this is scriptable, but sounds real cool)you are going to be at a severe disadvantage. And if he can chase you anywhere, then he has a real good chance at overcoming you.
Thus- PvP is Harder to overcome than PvE-
Again I will have to disagree that PvP is inherently harder to overcome with sufficient .
why would the DEVs waste time trying to do it when they have PC Bounty Hunters who want to hunt and PC smugglers who want to be hunted?
Because PvE players outnumber those that PvP by a wide margine. If the Devs want to diss the largest portion of the playerbase, they can go right ahead. Also, to those that which to take the PvP risk Smuggler missions, they can do it all they want. But IMO, they wil be extremely few.
That is content that writes itself every day.
I guess thats why the Devs keep including PvP. Cheap content.
And I NEVER said PvP is better than PvE because that's not true. They equal in a LOT of ways but PvP by it's nature is harder to overcome.
Do you know how much a contradictory statement that is? First you say that you NEVER said that PvP is better, but then you go one to say that PvP by nature is harder, no matter how muchyou increase the PvE difficulty. By saying itsinherently harder, yourinfereing its inherently better.
If you still don't believe me think about this:
Take 2 characters and give them the exact same attributes and abilites. Give them the same guns and armor. Make them twins in every way and give them the same Mark.
Now allow a player to play one and program the other.
Um hello! I never said to make the NPC thugs equal to the PC Bounty Hunters. There is NO way to program a NPC thats fully equal tohuman intellegence (at least as of yet. The science of making AI's gets better and better daily =P)
.I have said from the beginning, that the NPC thugs would be inherently tougher and would do things no player could, like shoot through walls and follow you accross shuttles.
9 times out of 10, who do you think is going to kill the Mark? Honestly.
Sufficiently compensated in capabilities, the NPC should have an equal, maybe even a better chance at killing the Mark.
Message Edited by HOTDOG on 07-08-2004 08:42 PM
Message Edited by HOTDOG on 07-08-2004 08:43 PM
Editing out responce so I can properly address RougeSmuggler in an later post.
Message Edited by silversaber on 07-08-2004 11:55 PM
HOTDOG wrote: The point is an NPC is not going to tell JTGALPHA to get a slice from you and while you are slicing his weapon, come sneaking up behind you, explode a droid & spam eyeshot on you 'till you're rolling out of the cloning center.
silversaber wrote:Ummm and this is different how from just having a script randomly spawning a exploding droid while your using a vender, and having a NPC spam eye-shot on you untill you clone?
It's different in that it would not be programmed. If NPCs were programmed to randomly spawn and attack when you opened your slicing window- how long would it take for the player base to figurethat out?
But this is getting nowhere-
Let's go back in time to a simpler game.
MORTAL KOMBAT-
When you play against the game eventually it's moves become predictable and easy to overcome as opposed to when that snot nosed kid steps up and throws HIS token in.
Now, this kid MIGHT kick your ass or he MIGHT be a first time player. You don't know. He might be a new player that just gets lucky- You don't know and you can NEVER know. And because you don't know the stakes are higher. There is no formula to guarantee success so the encounter is inherently harder to overcome.
In the game of PONG do you think you would win more games against the computer or against another person? Would the difficulty be the same?
PvP IS harder than PvE to overcome. Yes, you can program PvE to impossible to beat but that would not be fun or challenging it would be frustrating. Which is not the end-goal ofmaking a game (yes, I know some of you are thinking the DevsARE trying to make the game frustrating).
Short of that you have to make PvE a significant challenge which WOULD be fun- until you figure out how to beat it-shortly thereafter you would find itboring.
It is at that time that the majority of PvEers will at least TRY the high-risk missions because the challenge will be unpredictable and thus harder to overcome.They will put themselves indirect conflict with another human being that canlearn and adapt from previous defeats or could even study and put into use tipsfrom other players- websites- books- etc. in order to beat you. Again, harder to overcome.
It is my belief that when that player goes to attempt the these missions they should be rewarded more than they would a PvE mission. Not diffferent or better rewards- but more of the same rewards.
Harder mission =more reward. That's fair is it not?
HOTDOG wrote: And I NEVER said PvP is better than PvE because that's not true. They equal in a LOT of ways but PvP by it's nature is harder to overcome.
Silversable wrote: Do you know how much a contradictory statement that is? First you say that you NEVER said that PvP is better, but then you go one to say that PvP by nature is harder, no matter how muchyou increase the PvE difficulty. By saying itsinherently harder, yourinfereing its inherently better.
I am not saying PvP is better than PvE bymaintaining it's harder. You are saying that.
That would be like sayingPvEers are better and more moral people than PvPers becausethey have never killed* another PC.You don't believe that, do you?
*"Killed" is not an acurate representation of what is going down when an ingame character is defeated. To be killed is final, meaning the character is dead and can live no more.
In-game it means you might have earned some decay on your inventory, lost some buffsanda little game time but that's it. Except in the case of PvP where you don't have decay but you might be a little more humiliated and maybe even emotionally hurt that another player inconvenienced you in such a matter and most likely had fun doing so...
Again, harder. and that's without being called a noob.
PvP missions should pay better (better creds, better xp, better loot) than non, because they are inherently more difficult. Taking down a 1k HAM mob is like sneezing. Taking down a non-buffed player is still a risky proposition. How many meatlumps wear 80% composite and wield krayt scatters? That stranded imperial pilot isn't going to pop a neutron and guzzle a quart of brandy in mid-fight, but rhe other player might--might, that is. You never know...
I honestly hope no one ever seriosly tells me that they have higher morals than me because I kill PCs and they kill NPCs.. Morally its all killing I've seen 1 player games that disturb Moral Character alot more than SWG PvP on any level.... If you have a problem with killing one set of binary bits, why should a non-player controlled set of bits be different?
HOTDOG wrote:
That would be like sayingPvEers are better and more moral people than PvPers becausethey have never killed* another PC.You don't believe that, do you?
*"Killed" is not an acurate representation of what is going down when an ingame character is defeated. To be killed is final, meaning the character is dead and can live no more.
In-game it means you might have earned some decay on your inventory, lost some buffsanda little game time but that's it. Except in the case of PvP where you don't have decay but you might be a little more humiliated and maybe even emotionally hurt that another player inconvenienced you in such a matter and most likely had fun doing so...
Again, harder. and that's without being called a noob.
Istin wrote:
Well, if the all PvErs were willing to accept having a Super Battle Droid spawn on them
and follow them around the galaxy, and TEF you so you couldn't escape into a house,
all so they can have equal rewards...
I think we should let them. After all...it's only fair
Afew points:
a) to the person that objected to having to kill other people's characters....When the BH
takes the mission, they're consenting to the killing of their character. In fact, if they come
so unprepared that you CAN kill them before they kill you or run away and indeed initiate
the fight fully knowing what the outcome will be....I'd say it's a death wish and you should
oblige them.And considering that there really aren't many consequences assosiated
with in-game deaths as long as you don't taunt them and all, please don't compare this
to RL assisted suicide. It's not a good comparison.
b) The devsdesigned this game with the vision that PvP would be the pinacle of combat
content. Accept it. This will not change. It is part of their vision, and I should hope that
they will not change it. If you do not want PvP to have this role, go play City of Heros.
Player created content was intended to drive this game, not dev created content.
Utter BS. I would like you to show me where it was posted that this is the case. I have been participating on the official SWGForums LONG before Beta was initiated, and have never seen this stated. And also, keep you idiotic "go play something else" statements to yourself. That has NEVER been a valid arguement on these boards, and it isnt going to start now.
c) I know that only about a quarter of people who play the game read these forums.
However, this quarter seems to bean accurate cross-section of the people that play, other
than that the non-readers aren't as "hard-core" as the readers. Point is....it seems that
there are many more proponents for the idea that PvP deserves greater rewards than PvP.
More BS. Just because a small bunch of PvPrs yell constantly and loudly, doesnt make them more numerous. Quite to the contrary, Neutrals far outnumber the combined numbers of Covert and Overt of both Factions.
d) Why aren't the PvErs crying over in the GCW forums about not being able to call an
ATST without being overt? That's forced PvP withoutthe same rewards....right?
Because the PvE players have long argued over how we are being screwed over inthe GCW with the Devs until we were blue oin the face, but they have basically ignored us. Believe me, alots PvE players are completly pissed on how we have gotten the short end of the stick with the GCW, contrary to what we were told before and even dureing Beta. But why keep yelling when it does no frigging good.
e) Why do you need equal rewards when all you're doing is PvEing?
Because I still maintain that PvE is no better and no WORSE than PvP, and thus we should get EQUAL risk mission with EQUAL rewards. The fact PvE has to tweek up a notch in difficultyto become roughleyequivelent is what I have been argueing on these boards.
So you can make
more credits? Do you even need those credits? What are you going to buy? All you need
is a decent gun, a decent suit of kinetic/energy comp which can be found for under 500k on
and server easy, buffs, and some decent/good food. PvPers need every credit they can
lay their hands on. For the 40% stun/80%+ comp (1mil+), krayted gun (200k+ MIN), skill
tapes, amazing buffs each time they die(up to 15k), anda large variety of foods that will be expensive because every last aditional point HAM buffs are needed to compete. Yes, this
is an "ends justify the means" argument. PvP costs more than PvE.
The end NEVER justify the means. Here or anywhere else. Your stateing that PvP requires far more credits is a rule that has yet to proven.