Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband & Smuggling Missions
Ipseck
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:30 am
#391
silversaber wrote:Ipseck wrote:
In order to get busted with contraband you are likely a member of a faction, so it is in effect nearly the same argument.Likely??? I am argueing that HAVE to be in a Faction to PvP. If one is not in a Faction, there should be NO chance whatsoever of being forced into PvP.
Instead of just saying its going to ruin the game for most players, how about you tell me WHY its going to ruin the game for most players. Educate me, instead of talking out your ass.Ok, if you want it spelled out for you, only 5-10% of the playerbase participate in PvP according to SoE. That leaves the MAJORITY of players that hate PvP that this will ruin the game for.
Oh, and whatch on who your calling an ass. I will tolerate this once, but you WILL be reported in the future
read and re-read.
1) I said that people busted with contraband are already a member of a faction. People who sign up for a faction are consenting to pvp. You're replay doesn't refute that.
2) I called no one an ass. I said you were talking out of your's. Report me all you want.
3) My main argument is that people crying about 'forced pvp' don't think their argument through and aren't afraid of pvp at all, but don't like their own reactions to it. It makes them mad, it makes them uncomfortable etc etc without any real reasons whatsoever. For some strange reason, these people get worked up more about dying to players (that possess infintely more skill than an npc) than they do to dying to a gnort. Again, its all in their head and its all things they have personal control over. They should get over it already.
I'm finished discussing this with people who can't bother to put any actualy meat into their arguments. Its the same thing over and over without any substance. I'm leaving it at this. Sorry for the rantings guys
Message Edited by Ipseck on 06-17-2004 11:35 AM
Ryutek
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:32 am
#392
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
GreenMarine wrote:
This thread is huge! I'm working through reading all of this and I'm writing down notes. It will probably not be until Friday before I can post some responses (mainly because I'm fairly busy today and tonight).
/wave
Hiya GreenMarine
/waves also
Oh, and heya Caylin. Sorry I didn't get a chance to welcome you back before.
HalasterTheBlack
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:36 am
#393
Ternque01 wrote:
Okay okay okay... how about this PvE/PvP disscusion takers?
GM's contraband system remains virtually untouched save for one small detail: when visibility crests to the point of sparking a BH the player gets this message box on their screen:
"Your visibility as a criminal has put a bounty on your head. Please select a PvE or a PvP bounty hunter below to take you out!!!"
End of story, people who don't want PvP don't have to tolerate it, people who do can have their fun
One note on the issue, PvE bounty hunters should be just as difficult to defeat as player ones. Having your visibility so high means that you are on the top scale of criminal punishments, and that should be felt. Hard crimes need hard punishments. This is Star Wars
Except you STAY visible until a BH kills you, not until you kill a BH. Get visible and you're forever going to be followed and the only way out is death. You can kill every BH in the game and you still retain visibility. They can clone and try again and again and again.
That's a flaw in the BH system though, not this proposal.
Smuggler_Caylin
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:38 am
#394
Ryutek wrote:
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
GreenMarine wrote:
This thread is huge! I'm working through reading all of this and I'm writing down notes. It will probably not be until Friday before I can post some responses (mainly because I'm fairly busy today and tonight).
/wave
Hiya GreenMarine
/waves also
Oh, and heya Caylin. Sorry I didn't get a chance to welcome you back before.
I'm here for a little bit only. Eating popcorn chicken and a 7-11 slurpee before I go back out to face the real world again and try to find someone will pay me for some kind of labor I'm capable of. I'm still on 'break' but this thread captured my interest.
but this thread captured my interest.Ipseck, their arguments are quite valid and they are being quite clear.
PvP the common smuggler is not going to have a chance, while in PvE we have a variety of skills and set mechanics that the player can work with and interact around. I don't want to be killing nunas to have a 3k HAM buffed, composite wearing, pound me in the hindquarters BH come out of nowhere to shoot me in the head and go '**edit** NEWBIE PWNED!' and have my character raped by his pet bantha. I see that mentality too much in this game and I can certainly understand player who don't want to indulge them or even interact with them.
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse! 
HalasterTheBlack
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:40 am
#395
Ternque01 wrote:
First of all bro, I suggest you back off! It is not nor ever will be your place to ban me from this forum, and considering I have done nothing but do my best to constructively post here, i suggest you hold off on statement like these or things will get ugly. Got me? If any mention of a sunny day triggered you to tell me to leave, i'm sorry it ain't happening.
... didn't YOU post a response to me IN THIS VERY THREAD threatening to whine to a forum mod in an attempt to get me banned?
LMAO! 
You're awful emotional over this whole issue, aren't you?
Shrendyc
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:40 am
#396
I have had this debate of PVP/PVE with a few friends in the past, and I thought that I would share my viewpoint.
I am a smuggler, and also the Leader of a PA. There is no faction alignment that the guild mandates, but the majority of the members, myself included, is rebel. Our PA is a weekend warrior type of guild, and our major activities are typically on Saturday evenings. I play during the evenings when I get the time, which is limited. Most often I PVE, but I am usually not opposed to a good PVP fight.
I don't mind running rebel missions and getting a TEF. I do detest being forced overt and having to waste time trying to get back to a recruiter, then wait the obligatory hour for my status to change.
The problem as I see it is that if I am running an event as the guild leader, and somewhere along the line I am forced overt, I can either leave the group and take care of my problem, have the group follow me while I take care of my problem, or get killed and come back to the group. But all of those have an impact on my time and the time of other members of my PA. I have no way to turn it off when I am not in the mood to potentially be in a PVP situation. It can happen at anytime. And when we only have a handfull of hours to play in the evening, it can make a big difference to people having a good time or not, depending on the event.
"Then don't be a rebel." That is usually the argument. But why should I miss out on things that I do enjoy at times, just because of a sense of duty to a group of people. That statement tells me that I should either be a rebel, or a guild leader of an unaligned guild, but not both.
Another scenario is if I have limited time one evening and have a specific crafting focus in mind while I play. But on the way to my home to craft, I get scanned and made overt. I suddenly find myself in the position of having all my plans changed, and that is frustrating. I don't pay 15 bucks a month to be frustrated (then why did I choose smuggler...?).
These are a handful of incidents. More often than not, I don't mind the risk and the danger. It's fun. But there are certain times where I wish I could just toggle off the choice for an evening. It is a seldom occurrance, but they do happen. And I don't have the control. And not participating in the GCW at all because of the 4 times in a month I don't wish to potentially PVP is just silly.
Please note - I have lived with the situation as it stands. I have not quit the rebellion nor quit my position as a GL. But in my perspective, the ability to be able to say "Nah, not tonight. Not in the mood for PVP risk." would be a good thing. I think something like that would require some thought to avoid griefing, but it could be done. Perhaps you make the selection as you log in, and then the only way to change it would be talking to a faction recruiter. That would prevent switching on the fly, so to speak.
Just some thoughts on the matter.
RellikCro
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:40 am
#397
Ryutek wrote:
A couple of things to consider first Ternque, after you choose which style you prefer, PvP or PvE, how would the NPC BH appear? Would it be instantaneous (killing immersion about as much as having a box pop up, but I haven't come up with an idea on how to rework that one yet) or would it place your name on a NPC BH Terminal so to speak? (Just meaning that within the next few days of game time you are probably going to be found by a BH?)
I think it would be cool if you had like upto a week for it to pop.. I mean if it just popped right away again there is no "danger" waiting around for the bh to find ya. But if you chose "PvE BH" option and then nothing happened right away you would start to sneak around... trying to stay out of open areas.
You could also make it, as I am not sure how well the devs could have them actually track you down, but have it so like your shuttling from Karen to theed... the system randomly picks a time for you to get hit by the BH and waits for you to shuttle the next time and then spawns the BH in the city your heading to... of course the 60 second timer still needs to be use so you just dont die while loading but then the battle is on. For those that do not shuttle often you could also have it spawn in your Player city or a city you frquent alot. Something other then just falling from the sky lol
SBRD0C
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:43 am
#398
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
PvP the common smuggler is not going to have a chance, while in PvE we have a variety of skills and set mechanics that the player can work with and interact around. I don't want to be killing nunas to have a 3k HAM buffed, composite wearing, pound me in the hindquarters BH come out of nowhere to shoot me in the head and go '**edit** NEWBIE PWNED!' and have my character raped by his pet bantha. I see that mentality too much in this game and I can certainly understand player who don't want to indulge them or even interact with them.
I am a PvPers, and I must admitthat I absolutely Detest people who act like that, and speak like that.. It gives PvP such an awful reputation, and really limits the potential RP for PvP in all MMOs. Pity there isn't a way to isolate that minority onto thier own server so they can pwn each other to thier hearts content.
Ryutek
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:46 am
#399
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
I'm here for a little bit only. Eating popcorn chicken and a 7-11 slurpee before I go back out to face the real world again and try to find someone will pay me for some kind of labor I'm capable of. I'm still on 'break'
Understood. This thread has been about the only thing that has brought me back into posting and debating again on the forums. Enjoy the time away, it really does help. Anyway, back to "business" I guess.
Ipseck, their arguments are quite valid and they are being quite clear.
PvP the common smuggler is not going to have a chance, while in PvE we have a variety of skills and set mechanics that the player can work with and interact around. I don't want to be killing nunas to have a 3k HAM buffed, composite wearing, pound me in the hindquarters BH come out of nowhere to shoot me in the head and go '**edit** NEWBIE PWNED!' and have my character raped by his pet bantha. I see that mentality too much in this game and I can certainly understand player who don't want to indulge them or even interact with them.
I agree with the sentiment Caylin, and understand the concern very well. However, I also side with Ipseck very strongly, so maybe it is time to look more towards what we can do to accomodate both ideas and not lose immersion. Ternque's idea is a good start, it just needs refining.
This is how I stand:
This part is my personal opinion, not what I propose:
Having "Visibility" raised for using illegal signifies, to me, consent to a possible PvP encounter. Yes, the playerbase would have to be informed, quite clearly, that this would be a possibility, but that is it.
This is what I actually stand behind:
It seems to me your main concern Caylin is with our progression up the skill tree. The idea of a flag that could be set, preferably through the launchpad options to keep a player form changing it at will in the in-game options, would be the best solution. You could choose what type of encounter you wanted to have when your visibility reached a high point.
I would not go through the headache of seperating the two modifiers, and instead allow the flag to apply to using illegal items as well.
Thoughts?
Edited for clarification.
Message Edited by Ryutek on 06-17-2004 03:09 PM
Jhovial
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:46 am
#400
>>1) there's no such thing as a fair fight. Everyone is different. Different equipment, different classes/professions, different skill levels, different play styles.
<<
<<
Agreed, this might be part of the reason people dislike PvP.
>>2) who cares if someone's being immature? you have the option to a) let it slide off your back knowing they're immature douchebags, b) /addignore, c) yell back at them calling them exploiting fotm 12yr old fatherless douchebags, or d) any combination of the above. Its only a problem IF YOU LET IT BECOME ONE. Once again, said pvp'ers are in control of their own feelings, not some 12yr old douche.<<
Again, I agree, yet it is still annoying. I personally just ignore anyone that likes being a twit. But the fact remains that some people it really grates on. Is this an ok position to put them in?
>>3) NPC's decay your items if they kill you, players do not. Tell me, which is griefing you more? a couple of words you can ignore, or losing condition on all of your equipment?<<
Yes a disparity of blance in the systems. This is what I am addressing in a way in my the next part of the post.
>>4) People don't have reasons for not liking pvp. You pretty well say it yourself. You re-itterated what I said with that whole 'they just don't like it for personal reasons' line of crud. That's not a reason. There's no answer to the whole WHY question in there whatsoever. Bottom line is, the have issues with controlling their own emotions. If someone gets all broken up about being called a wimp in an online game, thats a personal problem, not a game design problem.<<
Being one of the rare people that walk the fence on this issue, (aka someone who can really love PvP and really hate it at the same time) I can say that any reason that either side gives to the other side makes no sense to the opposing sides. Some people love PvP because its "fun" they can give you no more solid reasons beyond what a PvEr can give you why it isnt fun for them. But the point of this is not to discuss the merits of PvP/PvE. Its a mute point argument I generally try and stay clear of. Suffice it to say, some people love PvP, others hate it. Neither side will ever understand the other.
Im not going to quote your final response, but from what you are saying, is the gist that do you feel the designers should focus more on one aspect of the game then the other? (in your case obviously you would want the focus to be on PvP if my assumption is correct)
And believe it for not, if you look at all the debating I did last night, you will find out, Im actually for PvP BH being part of the revamp. I think its a good idea.
Thochkored
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:48 am
#401
Perhaps so lower Sugglers can avoid scans were if they fail,they face a large mob and certain death, we can have the ability to "Dump Shipment" before the scan is complete. However, it also means that they'll still lose faction for failing the mission and the potential of having a bounty placed on their heads. Live to fight another day, I'd rather facea PC Bounty Hunter then 12 Stormies, plus since my stuff doesn't decay from a PvP death, if I do get killed by a BH.
I also think that it should be possible for the BH to complete their missions without deathblow, they've got you incapped and helpless they should be able to take away your shipment or if you have the credits topay for your shipmentand complete their quest, by returning it to the NPC (or an agent for the NPC) who hired them. Perhaps that will also give the Smuggler an opportunity to reclaim the cargo from the BH.
Ragnaat
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:50 am
#402
Thanks for poking back in and letting us know you're still around.
GreenMarine wrote:This thread is huge! I'm working through reading all of this and I'm writing down notes. It will probably not be until Friday before I can post some responses (mainly because I'm fairly busy today and tonight).
Word of advice tho... don't pop in here tomorrow and tell us "its too much" and you need us to "summarize it all in a new document"... I think we've proven we don't take kindly to that by now =)
Oh, and Hi to Caylin from me as well
Ryutek
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:51 am
#403
Ragnaat wrote:
Thanks for poking back in and letting us know you're still around.
Word of advice tho... don't pop in here tomorrow and tell us "its too much" and you need us to "summarize it all in a new document"... I think we've proven we don't take kindly to that by now =)
Oh, and Hi to Caylin from me as well