Smuggler Archive
Thread: Wes, you might already be aware of this...
Nicolas_Frost wrote:
Joker9125 wrote:
ana-mo-cara wrote:
..............CH is so increadibly broken in the game now no ch in their right mind will dare use a pet in pvp............................
I do. But then again im not exactly in my right mind now am I..................
Don't worry about ana-mo-cara. It was high time we got a village idiot.
Datink_Nieleft wrote:
JediArashi wrote:
Datink, for someone who is so blatantly condescending you sure don't offer much in the way of contructive criticism either do you?
It's fine to be sarcastic and flip, but not if you can't offer any useful comments to go with it. You belittle and berate about lack of knowledge and comprehension of this game, yet you make no effort to correct him in any of his statistics or details.
One star for you for bad form. Prove to me you know more then ana-mo-cara, don't just tell me you do.
I think this discussion has been good, even if LordMaxx has seemed to have to be on the defensive. I think it is admirable and worthy of respect how much LordMaxx wants to push for his profession above all others. He knows what his job is, and he's going for it. It's his style, and I think it is a good onearound these forums.
One of the points to consider is that in the CURB we'll see the"melting pot" effect of specials anyway, so a lot of the focus needs to be more on mods, certs, weapons, and where specials fall in the skill trees to be the most balanced and effective. If Pistoleers will be able to Head Shot, if they pick up some rifleman boxes, with a pistol...then the immediate impact will be that even if the specials available to a strict Pistoleer aren't to their flavor they will be ablt to pick up boxes from other professions to enable them to use specials they like or that fit their play style or even a FoTM. What will make these decision more interesting will be how all the mods and certs will fit in so that one would have to balance dabbling and sticking to their core profession.
I still think we will see aMP with MS and a sprinkle of the other marksman classes be the ultimate pistol wielder; not just a straight MP. I also think that is a good thing, as long as the core of being that is the MP, and not another profession that uses pistols. Having a MBH right now be the core because they get all thosespeed mods and some good specials doesn't fitat all. Make MP the core, and all hybrids or marksman classes in general (once the CURB hits) be useful in creating different types of MP. Hell I'd even like to see some cross breed in the titles. Like a MP that has rifleman trees be able to be titled "Headhunter" or something, and a MP that has carbineertrees be a "Desperado" somethign that would allow a blending of professions to show that they area core profession that has focus in a certain other profession.
Kinda got off track there, butyou get the jist of it.
Well..first off...I've read the guy's previous posts. Have you? Yes I flipped, because ALMOST everything he has posted so far seems to be uninformed. Prove to you I know more than Ana? Let's see...how about I've played this game since launch. I've been a Pistoleer and a Smuggler since launch. Mastered Pistoleer first..then Smuggler around Dec 2003..with the announcement of said accomplishment in Jan 04. Constructive criticism...I have gone beyond that.
Yes...I am the same guy who preached "constructive posts"...and yes I am guilty of basically attacking this guy's ideas. Read through his past posts though. Tell me that you don't see the pattern in his thought.
Lord Maxx posted his thread in the Pistoleer forum. It was aimed at Pistoleers. Maxx is NOT a developer, but the pistoleer correspondant. Of course he is going to stick up for his profession. Of course he is going to want things done a certain way, reflecting the popular opinion of a majority of pistoleers...that his un-paid job as a correspondant. Ana basically chided him for being single minded...well, of COURSE he is! There are correspondants for the other professions...he doesn't need to worry about those. The bottom line is a lot of prof's need to be looked at and revamped...and its coming. A across the board revamp.
Then...ana talks about adding more of skill requirement to M. Pistoleer,...to stop it from becoming a FOTM. Well...then he should have included every other combat profession in that "single minded" statement, because ALL the elite combat prof's have at least 1 tree of something as a pre-req.
Prove to you I know more than ana-mo-cara? How about I prove to you that this forum knows more than Ana-mo-cara. And you can 1 star me till Han Solo comes home,..after you read some of his "ideas", lets see you come up with something constructive to say. Read the responses to his posts, you will see what a majority of the Smuggler's think that Ana-mo-cara knows.
The above post was posted before I *breathed in the love* and *breathed out the anger*.
So here is the cliff notes:
I don't agree with some of his ideas.
/end
Datink_Nieleft wrote:
The above post was posted before I *breathed in the love* and *breathed out the anger*.
So here is the cliff notes:
I don't agree with some of his ideas.
/end
It's all good, I just don't like seeing those kinds of posts against anyone (most definately not ana-mo-cara specifically) who at least made an attempt. It may not have been a good, well thought out attempt, but....
I am well aware of ana-mo-cara's history here in the forums, believe me, but to me the best way to counter such ________(fill in the blank) is to hit 'em with fact, logic, and intelligent counter-posts. In the end, this is a good discussion, let's keep it productve and useful.
I apologize to you Dantik, for singling you out.
Now on with the show.....
LordMaxx wrote:
It has never been my intention to diminish Smugglers or Bounty Hunters. The unfortunate truth is that Pistoleer by itself is a very weak profession. It takes the Accuray, Speed Mods, and Specials from both BH and Smuggler to really make us into something powerful.
BHs get true pistol speed mods and some VERY good specials. And Smugglers also get some Very nice specials. We the pistoleers with no hybrid addons are left with a very short list of actual working and worthwhile specials. Stopping shot is a joke if you dont have the BH speed mods, we are mainly left with Health Shot 2 a moderate damage pool specific shot, and Fan Shot a moderate damage cone shot. Multi-target pistol shot is nice too, but if you dont have the speed mods of a BH its not really worth it.
It has always been my intention and my purpose to make pistoleer a Strong standalone profession...I dont even want to take anything from the Hybrids (except maybe some speed mods to help us) but that would be up to the Bounty Hunters to be concerned over. Pistoleers need a revamp more than anyone...it really hasnt been noticed as a broken class because most people usually take BH or Smuggler to supplement the fact that we really have no power on our own. Carbines could be said to be in the same crowd, but they got a nice special revamp and have several Very nice working specials, even if their speed mods are worst than ours. So I think they have a leg up (no pun intended) on us. And Riflemen...well they are the King right now because mind is where its at...
So my statement was mainly to emphasize how the pistoleer class is NOT very playable in its current state unless you take one or even both of the hybrids that add to its ability.
If I offended you I am sorry, but my position is locked in stone. Pistoleers need help and we want in the pistoleer trees not from other sources.
I agree pistoleer is not playabe by itself I have been a pistoleer since launch.
One thing I will say is pistoleer needs its specials fixed.
One reason the perception that you need smuggler or BH is because the pistoleer specials are broken. Adding just specials to a hybrid is not a big issue to you I think
One big issue is the BH pistol dabbler can speed cap.
Lets do a little history
BH's at one point had to master Scout
BH's were meant to be proficient in pistols and carbine
BH's were give speed and accuracy mods because the scout requirement did not allow them to get any elite skills so ny spending the points to master scout and marksman you got the equivilent of a master pistoleer and master carbinee speed an accurcay wise
Now they reduces the skill points for BH
Now they can just get one line in BH, dabble in pistoleer and be speed capped in pistol.
Adding a few specials to a hybrifd makes sense, adding skills for a good reason makes sense. But when they took away the massive skill points required for BH they created a massive imbalance in the ranged professions (in relation to each other). Add on to that the pistoleer specials are largely broken and you have some disgruntled pistoleers
LordMaxx wrote:
Zeon_Zaku wrote:
LordMaxx wrote:
Pistoleers need a revamp more than anyone...
Lol. Real smart to say that in the Smuggler board.
Considering the new pistols you've been given (though they're not that great), you have been getting more love then Smugglers have ever since SWG launched.
I dont bow to the crowd, I just call it like I see it...which is why im a software engineer and not a politician
I think the answer is to give pistoleers enough combat power to stand on their own, and give them a specific purpose...right now we are a class that can target health...and oh btw we can barely do that
well enough trust me I dont want to take what smugglers have away from them...I mainly just want more DPS for pistoleers, and more than just a health targeted shot...doesnt have to be a KD or Warcry like shot...I just want something MORE...something that the pistoleers would be identified with...this, I hope, will be taken care of in the CURB...I dont want Warcry and KD...I just want....more.... Im not greedy.... Just want more than what we have...which I think you guys want more also...and both communities deserve it.
Dont worry guys Im not gunning for your specials...Im just gunning for a developer to start changing the numbers.
I am not sure pistoleers need acomplete revamp, but they do need a heck of a lot of fixing. The speicals need fixed so they work and added mods
LordMaxx wrote:
Nicolas_Frost wrote:
I don't mean to sound rude, but instead of asking for more mods plus more skills how about asking for:
Balanced mods and working skills?
Balanced mods? Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?
Well, we all realize that Riflemen cap on speed while Pistols don't, and don't even get started on the carbineers. So, here's my proposal.
Cap Master Gunfighters on speed.
Cap Master Rifleman on Accuracy.Message Edited by Nicolas_Frost on 01-13-2005 06:51 AM
Isnt "Cap Master Gunfighters on speed" More mods? Im asking for more speed for pistoleers and fixed/working specials I dont think that is too much to ask for, do you?
Im not really asking for MORE skills...I just want some working ones...we have 3 shots that currently do what they are suppose to do without being completely redundant. Right now we are only a damage dealing profession, by that I mean the only thing we can do is cause damage, no shot of ours can cause states or do anything to a character except healthshot1/2 which causes a laughable bleed and Pistol Melee Defense 1 which can KD, but if you are close enough to do that then you are about to get your head chopped off. If the only thing we can do is cause damage, then that damage needs to be enough to make us effective.
No need to drag this all out. we all want the CURB to work and it will be up to me, wes, and the beta testers to make sure that both our professions come out well.
I can't believe I didn't notice this untill now.
Well, Maxx, its not more mods, the way I said it, you'd be trading some(not all) of your current accuracy mods for more speed. Rifle would be vice versa. Not more mods, just balancing them.
JediArashi wrote:
Datink, for someone who is so blatantly condescending you sure don't offer much in the way of contructive criticism either do you?
It's fine to be sarcastic and flip, but not if you can't offer any useful comments to go with it. You belittle and berate about lack of knowledge and comprehension of this game, yet you make no effort to correct him in any of his statistics or details.
One star for you for bad form. Prove to me you know more then ana-mo-cara, don't just tell me you do.
I think this discussion has been good, even if LordMaxx has seemed to have to be on the defensive. I think it is admirable and worthy of respect how much LordMaxx wants to push for his profession above all others. He knows what his job is, and he's going for it. It's his style, and I think it is a good onearound these forums.
One of the points to consider is that in the CURB we'll see the"melting pot" effect of specials anyway, so a lot of the focus needs to be more on mods, certs, weapons, and where specials fall in the skill trees to be the most balanced and effective. If Pistoleers will be able to Head Shot, if they pick up some rifleman boxes, with a pistol...then the immediate impact will be that even if the specials available to a strict Pistoleer aren't to their flavor they will be ablt to pick up boxes from other professions to enable them to use specials they like or that fit their play style or even a FoTM. What will make these decision more interesting will be how all the mods and certs will fit in so that one would have to balance dabbling and sticking to their core profession.
I still think we will see aMP with MS and a sprinkle of the other marksman classes be the ultimate pistol wielder; not just a straight MP. I also think that is a good thing, as long as the core of being that is the MP, and not another profession that uses pistols. Having a MBH right now be the core because they get all thosespeed mods and some good specials doesn't fitat all. Make MP the core, and all hybrids or marksman classes in general (once the CURB hits) be useful in creating different types of MP. Hell I'd even like to see some cross breed in the titles. Like a MP that has rifleman trees be able to be titled "Headhunter" or something, and a MP that has carbineertrees be a "Desperado" somethign that would allow a blending of professions to show that they area core profession that has focus in a certain other profession.
Kinda got off track there, butyou get the jist of it.
Well..first off...I've read the guy's previous posts. Have you? Yes I flipped, because ALMOST everything he has posted so far seems to be uninformed. Prove to you I know more than Ana? Let's see...how about I've played this game since launch. I've been a Pistoleer and a Smuggler since launch. Mastered Pistoleer first..then Smuggler around Dec 2003..with the announcement of said accomplishment in Jan 04. Constructive criticism...I have gone beyond that.
Yes...I am the same guy who preached "constructive posts"...and yes I am guilty of basically attacking this guy's ideas. Read through his past posts though. Tell me that you don't see the pattern in his thought.
Lord Maxx posted his thread in the Pistoleer forum. It was aimed at Pistoleers. Maxx is NOT a developer, but the pistoleer correspondant. Of course he is going to stick up for his profession. Of course he is going to want things done a certain way, reflecting the popular opinion of a majority of pistoleers...that his un-paid job as a correspondant. Ana basically chided him for being single minded...well, of COURSE he is! There are correspondants for the other professions...he doesn't need to worry about those. The bottom line is a lot of prof's need to be looked at and revamped...and its coming. A across the board revamp.
Then...ana talks about adding more of skill requirement to M. Pistoleer,...to stop it from becoming a FOTM. Well...then he should have included every other combat profession in that "single minded" statement, because ALL the elite combat prof's have at least 1 tree of something as a pre-req.
Prove to you I know more than ana-mo-cara? How about I prove to you that this forum knows more than Ana-mo-cara. And you can 1 star me till Han Solo comes home,..after you read some of his "ideas", lets see you come up with something constructive to say. Read the responses to his posts, you will see what a majority of the Smuggler's think that Ana-mo-cara knows.
ana-mo-cara wrote:
Novice bottom teir. 15 skill points. just for novice. The blocks in each tree are as follows 5,4,3,2 for each box up from the bottom and mastery costs6 point. So that is77 points to master one of the first six boxes in the game. Now each second level box is reversed somewhat. The novice box is 6 points and each box after that is 2,3,4,5. The top box being 1. So an elite box costs 63 skill points. So the pistoleer profession requires for mastery 92 skill points. Okay keep that number in mind. Correction - mastery of a beginning profession is 6 points, for a total of 77. I shall correct your math in Yellow.
Bounty hunter pistol line requires the following master marksman 77 skillpoints. Scout terrain negotiation 29 skillpoints. Novice bh requires 6 skillpoints. Plus 14 skillpoints to go up that three. The grand total just for BH pistol tree is126 skillpoints.
Smuggler dirty fighting. Smuggler requires 29 skillpoints for pistol 4. Smuggler requires 29 skillpoints for unarmed 4. Smuggler requires 6 skillpoints for novice smuggler. Then 14 points for the dirty fighting line. The grand total is 78 skillpoints. I would also like to point out that a novice smuggler spends more skill points to get to novicethan a novice pistoleer, who only needs pistols IV.
So of the three pistol profession BHs actually spend more for their pistol mods then pistoleers actually spend on theirs. Smugglers spend less then pistoleers. A pistoleer then can master pistoleer do bh pistols, and have enough to novice smuggler to boot. Smugglers get no pistol mods at all, we get only 4 specials. We are just as able to hit things as anyone with only pistols IV. And as mentioned above, we spend more points to get to novice than a pistoleer does.
The point being is that pistoleer actually already has access to the bh pistol mods anyway. Mods that a bounty hunter pays more skillpoints to get. Pistoleer is a cheap second teir profession to get. If you start ripping power out of bh and smuggler to give to pistoleer it makes no sense. Nor does makeing pistoleer alone a better pistol user then bh. This goes against logic reward the guy who spends less then the guy who spends more. If the pistoleer spends more in getting the bh pistol line. Then the pistoleer with bh pistol line should be more expert then just pistoleer, or just bh. Now if pistoleer had a higher requisitional requirement for pistoleer. Say haveing to get a line of unarmed. Then the pistoleer profession should merit being made stronger. As smugglers most of us can agree that takeing unarmed for a profession that uses pistols is a little looney, but it makes some sense. Many of the more skill intensive professions require a player to take up skills that are near useless to the later profession. Smuggler dosent have to do that. While commandos smugglers bhs have to. Brawler is completely useless to a smuggler - we don't have anything that works with it. Once we get to Unarmed IV, that's it, there ain't no more. Not a mod, not a skill, not a special, nothing that enhances the brawler side of smugglers.
I am not talking about the inbalanced professions in the game. Which the CURB should nerf pretty handily. I am talking ideal situation. You want the player that uses more skillpoints to get the advantage not the player that uses the least. That totally makes skillpoints pointless. A master armorsmith/ riflemen/ carbineer/ pistoleer/ TKA should not be running riot over Pistoleer/smuggler/commando/bh/ch/tka. I would think everyone would agree with me on this point. We have seen how lousey that makes the game. It leads to lazy skill use. A player can spend a pitance on combat skills and beat the tar out of players that spend more. Simply jacking up pistoleer is not all that grand an idea. Giveing that profession unique and different features might be. Something that gives the pistoleer a slightly different tilt on fighting. Jacking a profession out of skillpoint proportion only leads to FOTM. Which will never promote a more dynamic game enviroment . You just get more people doing it because its an easy i win profession. I would agree with this if the smuggler profession was a combat only class; but its not. We spend more skill points because we're a hybrid profession. Now granted, we don't get to use one of the prerequisite professions at all but I am hopefullthat a future revamp (whenever that may be, if ever that may be) will change how that is done to properly give smugglers their due.
cpz wrote:
You sure, Shrendyc?
I thought the base professions were 15 or 16 sp each...?
Yeah, Novice Starting profession is 15, then 2x4-3x4-4x4-5x4-6.
Also, we were tossed a brawler bone in Smuggler, we get Melee Damage Mitigation 1. :?
Shrendyc wrote:
LordMaxx, the pistoleer correspondant made this comment in regards to a discussion on stopping shot:
"would be nice...but smugglers also already have a pistol KD...and they have the warcry-like shot also...and the only way you are going to reasonably use stopping shot with a DE-10 is if you have the speed mods of a bounty hunter...
Im really itching to see if we can bring Pistol back to the pistoleers and out of the hybrid's hands..."
I think you might want to ask him about what he meant by this, as I don't think we need to lose any more of our profession. Losing our pistol specials would be the death nell.
Message Edited by Shrendyc on 01-11-2005 07:26 AM
You have to love this, plots to wreck our already destroyed profession. Maybe it would be nice if smugglers warcry shot WORKED. Would also be nice if the KD had some state like dizzy to go with it so your not down then right back up again. I would like pistoleer to be stronger. Hell I am one. But why is everyone so set on destroying smuggler????
Maloso