Smuggler Archive
Thread: The CU looks REALLY cool!!!
Ragnaat
Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:08 am
#27
my issues are not those of bugs... other then the big HA HA that we got for believing that the CURB might actually get us to a point where there were more things fixed then broken (specials, abilities, etc).. gamebreaking bugs will /always/ be fixed before
But my issue isn't one of bugs its one of game design and where that new design impacts game depth and other things under the surface that make this game that is now - while broken on the surface - one that was becoming fairly solid at the core. Its a totally different game now and the reason i haven't quit yet are of my non game related ties (friends, city, etc.) becuase in terms of the game that it is its just not one that can keep me engrossed in the long term. Some examples for those that need them
* The system of professions based on skillpoint allocation in one pool and a combat system based on level just don't fit together. Period. You can make all the changes you'd like to individual issues (like making someone with novice marksman but cl80 from melee profs powerful enough that they can gain xp from cl 80 mobs), but the concept is flawed and there will /always/ be a set of residual bugs, quirks, brick walls.
* Yes, I was one of the one that wanted special that worked cross discipline (so i could play the wookiee smuggler with the bowcaster) but I was wrong. Well I was sortof wrong, or maybe just not specific enough. Pre-CU there were some professions that were a lot more like a "profession" then simply an elite skillset. Smuggler was one of these. It makes sense to me that a number of different skillsets could partake in the role of a Smuggler. It also makes some sense that each ranged discapline would gain some general mods that would be cross disciplanary so that was ok in my book too... but having almost every special cross classes and having a bulk of weapons simply LC based is just way to far away from the realm of believable.
* The Level system just has ZERO place in sci fiction. The staff can try and comfort themselves by quoting some obscure article and thinking in terms of science-fantasy, but in my world laser beams generated by a rifle and an armor that somehow dissipates that beam or the thinkness of a skin crature are fixed objects. It makes NO FREAKING DIFFENCE if a CL1 person picked up a cdef and hits a borgle in the wing vs. master pistoleer does the same thing. The difference between those two scenarios should ONLY be accuracy and speed (recovery) - but if a hit lands it lands and hurts. Now there can be some argument that in melee profs a master will hit with a sword much harder, but that was already dealt with in the old system - just look at the unarmed damage mods and the way damage output was a combination of body+weap. Still though, that has no business in ranged combat. Additionally, I have other issues with a Master of any given profession not being the true master in combat without artificially inflating their CL via totally unrelated profession.
I can go on but i have other thigns to do. There are serious issues with the weapon cap system that we are just now learning base on conversion formulas as well as crafters of new gear hitting limits, there are non-core issues related to the f'ing over of armorsmiths becuase of the way armor was designed for the new system, the general emphasis of DPS as the sole arbiter of game "balance" ignoring other non combat skills that a box or profession may encompas, the XP changes creating a scenario where a master squad leader may never have even been in a group nevermind be leader of that group (however hard it may be to get xp that way) or that you get better at slicing by shooting squills (or wherever the mass xp location becomes), the inability for a medic or doctor to gain xp by staffing a medical center or other public facility.
I dunno.. it may play "fun" in cerrtain circumstances... but as a mmporg it certainly doesn't look cool.
But my issue isn't one of bugs its one of game design and where that new design impacts game depth and other things under the surface that make this game that is now - while broken on the surface - one that was becoming fairly solid at the core. Its a totally different game now and the reason i haven't quit yet are of my non game related ties (friends, city, etc.) becuase in terms of the game that it is its just not one that can keep me engrossed in the long term. Some examples for those that need them
* The system of professions based on skillpoint allocation in one pool and a combat system based on level just don't fit together. Period. You can make all the changes you'd like to individual issues (like making someone with novice marksman but cl80 from melee profs powerful enough that they can gain xp from cl 80 mobs), but the concept is flawed and there will /always/ be a set of residual bugs, quirks, brick walls.
* Yes, I was one of the one that wanted special that worked cross discipline (so i could play the wookiee smuggler with the bowcaster) but I was wrong. Well I was sortof wrong, or maybe just not specific enough. Pre-CU there were some professions that were a lot more like a "profession" then simply an elite skillset. Smuggler was one of these. It makes sense to me that a number of different skillsets could partake in the role of a Smuggler. It also makes some sense that each ranged discapline would gain some general mods that would be cross disciplanary so that was ok in my book too... but having almost every special cross classes and having a bulk of weapons simply LC based is just way to far away from the realm of believable.
* The Level system just has ZERO place in sci fiction. The staff can try and comfort themselves by quoting some obscure article and thinking in terms of science-fantasy, but in my world laser beams generated by a rifle and an armor that somehow dissipates that beam or the thinkness of a skin crature are fixed objects. It makes NO FREAKING DIFFENCE if a CL1 person picked up a cdef and hits a borgle in the wing vs. master pistoleer does the same thing. The difference between those two scenarios should ONLY be accuracy and speed (recovery) - but if a hit lands it lands and hurts. Now there can be some argument that in melee profs a master will hit with a sword much harder, but that was already dealt with in the old system - just look at the unarmed damage mods and the way damage output was a combination of body+weap. Still though, that has no business in ranged combat. Additionally, I have other issues with a Master of any given profession not being the true master in combat without artificially inflating their CL via totally unrelated profession.
I can go on but i have other thigns to do. There are serious issues with the weapon cap system that we are just now learning base on conversion formulas as well as crafters of new gear hitting limits, there are non-core issues related to the f'ing over of armorsmiths becuase of the way armor was designed for the new system, the general emphasis of DPS as the sole arbiter of game "balance" ignoring other non combat skills that a box or profession may encompas, the XP changes creating a scenario where a master squad leader may never have even been in a group nevermind be leader of that group (however hard it may be to get xp that way) or that you get better at slicing by shooting squills (or wherever the mass xp location becomes), the inability for a medic or doctor to gain xp by staffing a medical center or other public facility.
I dunno.. it may play "fun" in cerrtain circumstances... but as a mmporg it certainly doesn't look cool.
Message Edited by Ragnaat on 04-18-2005 12:08 PM
mengedej
Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:28 am
#28
"They might NOT have needed to make such a drastic change to the system but a change WAS needed drastically."
No, stop it! (hotdog, read the bottom first -ok?)
The entire community have been whining about the combat system for a very long time, the only people who really liked it was doctors who made million off the buffs and people who find one-special-spamming exiting and rewarding. I say**** them, (If you are offended, please grow up) - it sucked.
SOE barely heard the good proposals over the equally bad proposals for change so they changed it all and everyone starts whining again. I hope you realise this will never stop. Adapt to change or dont. It is your choice (To be honest I could not care less for people who post "Today I quit this stupid, stupid game, and this is why..."If you want to make YOUR voice heard,sue SOE customer service or walk into their office with a can of whoopa** but whatever you do, dont forget to prepare your defencespeech. Dont look for /hugs in the online forums, you wont change the world from there)
Respect to our smuggler community representatives*, but I have rarely (in any targeted usergroup)seen a more shattered picture of demands and goals. You have to liaise if you want to make a change. For gods sake. And I do not mean us smugglers, the entire community have to liaise because all friggin professions only see their part. I promise you - if the community could agree on and provide a 10 point list of changes backed up by representatives of all professions these would be implemented faster than lightning.
Get a grip, things will change no matter you like them or not. If you don't, I suggest you help acheive whatI just told you.
And, just to finish this off. Before you start barking - read it again and cool down. I am not flaming anyone -Im giving constructive feeback and saying im tired of whining in the same post. That actually scores higher than many, many other posts....
*I know you spend much time and effort on this, don't take it personally.
hotdog- I used your scentance as a trigger because I liked it, nothing else:-)
LM
Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:03 am
#29
I have tried this new combatdowngrade twice now, and I will be going back in for more, but bottom line: this is an oversimplified, surprise-free combat system that is extremely artificial.
SWG used to be a "Virtual World" --unlike anything that went before! Such innovation. Such multi-layered complexity, where creativity and intelligence made a difference -- just like the real world. We had an incredibly rich skill point system, crafting system and combat system.
Now it is... I dunno -- a socialist system? Everything has been "equalized."All this "level-based" nonsense. It's BORING. Check the level of the critter OR the live person with whom you are thinking of dueling and ALL is revealed, since the LEVEL is king. If it is one below you, you will win. One above you, you will lose. The same as yours? You will probably win. There is no suspense, no surprise.
Gone are the abilities to create superior products. Gone are the intricate and fascinating inter-dependencies between crafters, entertainers, medics, docs and combatants. Gone is the ability to really be a multi-layered persona.
I feel like the "Handicapper General" came in and placed artificalencumbrances on all the smart, resourceful people... (reference to an old Kurt Vonnegut short story called "Harrison Bergeron" -- excellent read, BTW.) Now it seems there is no room for the individual.
Add to that the HUGE andout of placeicons (which consist of colors heretofore unseen in SWG) and the ridiculous EQ2 style particle effects (what the heck? Hop on or off your speeder and get red atoms swirling around you? State effects out of an old cartoon? Give us a break -- we can tell if someone is knocked down.) -- it just... ruins the immersion, at least for me. And the lack of a combat queue makes chatting with each other during combat (to change a planorthe like)quite difficult. Why did they remove it? Will I have to get teamspeak to play this game now? Bleah.
If the aim was to enrich the gaming experience and the star-warsy feel, they have sadly failed -- in fact, done quite the opposite -- at least for me.
Yes, there were imbalances; we were led to believe those would be addressed WITHIN A SYSTEM WE LOVED and which made SWG a truly unique experience. But what has happened is... well, say we brought our classic corvette to the shop and told the mechanics it needed some tranny work. Thenwe went to pick it up and they handed us the keys to a Yugo and said "Here's your car."
Why couldn't they have addressed these issues within the original system? I think they were doing that at first (based on what I have been reading over the last year and a half here) but because it was going to require a huge effort and they wanted to release the CU andRoTWtogether for marketing and financial reasons, they took the system from another game they produce (and there are good financial reasons for that, too) and jammed it into SWG.
And to those who are saying "But the old system was so imbalanced and you just have trouble with change or wanna be uber":Just because the old system was not balanced does not mean it could not have been fixed. And I embrace change that is liberating, intelligent, creative, exciting... and I do not wanna be uber -- I am NOT uber, actually. Not even close. Never solo'd Krayts, etc.
I'd rather have the borked original world of SWG than this handicapped, dumbed-down, level (not skill) based, cartoon-like game that I saw on Test Center. I wouldhappily wait for them to fix the original system. (The day this thing goes live will be fascinating; think of the vast majority of folks in game who have NO idea what to expect. Man... )
I play SWG with a very close friend, and we will either find a way to continue here or move on. But I am sad and actually surprised at how emotional I am about it. I guess I am mourning the coming loss of the amazing virtual world in which we shared a life for going on two years. I loved it here. I fear that the verb in the previous sentence really is in the proper tense.
riotcontrol
Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:08 am
#30
/sign 99% of LM's post and completely agree with the game vs. world thing. We can hope that more world-like additions will follow after the CURB but... I wouldn't hold my breath considering that each and every update/addition lately has been game-oriented.
SpinningCloud
Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:24 pm
#31
Well you know I pretty much agree with LM.
Look. We ALL agree I think that the buf business was way out of hand and something needed to be done.
However they 'fixed' that by removing SO much of the richness and variety that was SWG at it's core.
What I can't fathom is why we went from a HAM system with depth to this terribly simplistic and child-like HAM we have with the CU. All it did was remove TONS of complexity and variation and gave nothing of interest back. One less thing to have to think about while we mindless go about the GCW maybe? The change in the HAM system is also the root of what has destroyed the Entertainer professions and to an extent the variation in the Chef's products.
I guess I just don't see the need to have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.
And, I might add, anyone that thinks they'll repair all they broke or destroyed anytime soon is delusional.
Skedardistroyer
Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:46 pm
#32
Ternque01 wrote:
Skedardistroyer wrote:
I might have enjoyed it, but TestCenter crashed literally every 5 minutes for me. It sucked.
Hopefully wont be that way in the middle of the week
Message Edited by Skedardistroyer on 04-18-2005 10:08 AM
Get away from populated cities and areas; this works fine for me.
I actually did, and the crashes happened MORE often.I was fine in Mos Eisely infront of a million people standing by the blue frog.
I went out to Lok with2 people, virtually no one there, and it was just getting crazy
SpinningCloud
Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:07 pm
#33
I finally made it out to Wayfar where I was the only player and I still crashed. Then I started crashing at the end of every load and the only thing that I could do was delete the character and make a new one...which put me back in a population center.
Basically I can't play Test anymore and I have no idea why. If this happens with Live I'm totally screwed.
RichardBryant
Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:36 pm
#34
I like the CU. I like it a lot.
All of a sudden, your FOTM template is no better than my RP template. If i decide to go SF so i can sell faction and you try to gank me, you're in for a big nasty surprise, Mr Uber1337.
PvE is the issue and it's a huge issue. What's wrong with PvE? The level-based damage multiplier.
Particle effects don't bother me, the new icons are ugly but that's nobody's game-wrecker, entertainers are, i agree, borked but hey, we know about borked. We're still smugglers. And there are still rangers and squad leaders out there too, amazingly enough. God alone knows why.
But, that damage multiplier means you have three states of NPC/mob.
And that sucks. Because now, there's no challenge and no skill in PvE and that really is a game-breaker. Mobs should have a set damage range and a fixed set of resistances. Knowledge should be power, not the amount of grind one has gone through. This is jedi-grinders mentality writ large, and it could very easily ruin this game forever.
Oh, and yeah, most of us definitely did not love the old-style of SWG combat. It was a grotesquely ugly mess, avoided by anyone beyond the "hit F1 as fast as you can" stage of game sophistication. Given the choice of CURB or that, i'll take the CURB.
All of a sudden, your FOTM template is no better than my RP template. If i decide to go SF so i can sell faction and you try to gank me, you're in for a big nasty surprise, Mr Uber1337.
PvE is the issue and it's a huge issue. What's wrong with PvE? The level-based damage multiplier.
Particle effects don't bother me, the new icons are ugly but that's nobody's game-wrecker, entertainers are, i agree, borked but hey, we know about borked. We're still smugglers. And there are still rangers and squad leaders out there too, amazingly enough. God alone knows why.
But, that damage multiplier means you have three states of NPC/mob.
- Pointlessly easy, not even a real XP reward (lower level)
- Tough but feasible (your level or a max of 2 levels higher)
- You die immediately (3 or more levels above you)
And that sucks. Because now, there's no challenge and no skill in PvE and that really is a game-breaker. Mobs should have a set damage range and a fixed set of resistances. Knowledge should be power, not the amount of grind one has gone through. This is jedi-grinders mentality writ large, and it could very easily ruin this game forever.
Oh, and yeah, most of us definitely did not love the old-style of SWG combat. It was a grotesquely ugly mess, avoided by anyone beyond the "hit F1 as fast as you can" stage of game sophistication. Given the choice of CURB or that, i'll take the CURB.
PorkchopExpress
Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:49 pm
#35
/agree 100% LM
----------------------------------------------------------
I'd rather have the borked original world of SWG than this handicapped, dumbed-down, level (not skill) based, cartoon-like game that I saw on Test Center. I wouldhappily wait for them to fix the original system. (The day this thing goes live will be fascinating; think of the vast majority of folks in game who have NO idea what to expect. Man... )
----------------------------------------------------------
i originally started with eq, then became a swg beta tester (all hail the floating shrub!) and left eq for swg. i got a little burned out and played eq2 for about, oh, maybe a month. i GLADLY left eq2 due to that world/system. practically the sameboring, generalized system (yes, including the 2 "specials" queue/UI) is being introduced here as a combat upgrade.
while i'm not saying "the sky is falling and i'm quitting!", i will give the "live" version a try. but based on what's being used now, i have a real good idea on what to expect. and it fills me with dread.
jbezorg
Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:14 pm
#36
SpinningCloud wrote:
Well, sure professions are not "perma-ruined", like us for example. It's only been two years and we still only have a still-empty promise.
How long do you think Entertainers will have to go? Hell, the devs STILL apparently have no problem with bufbots...they even made it EASIER to be a buf bot...you don't even have to run a complicated script.
I really think there were better ways to deal with the buff problems and the lack of armor diversity. I just don't think this accomplished it...and especially at the price.
Can anyone please tell me, in all honesty, what is the differance of going from only attacking the Mind stat and basing your selection ofspecials to weakening the mind stat to only Attacking the Health stat and basing your selection of specials to weakening thehealth stat? Besides the color of the bar?
TomoRainer
Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:20 pm
#37
Yeah, I can tell you the difference. Before, some of us could only hit mind with a random shot.
Message Edited by TomoRainer on 04-18-2005 05:21 PM
jbezorg
Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:39 pm
#38
TomoRainer wrote:
Yeah, I can tell you the difference. Before, some of us could only hit mind with a random shot.
Message Edited by TomoRainer on 04-18-2005 05:21 PM
So the answer is to give everyone a "mind" attack and call it health?
The tendacy to only attack the mind was not due to buffs alone but to the inequity between the two buff systems. Percentage of the base stat for mind with a possible max at 125% with SAs ( Mon Cal's max mind/focus buff was 1625 with 1438 for Willpower w/ 125% buff. Most other races, you are looking at a 1250 buff.) vs aflat rate of 2400-2600+ for the other 6? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what stat is going to be attacked the most.
What do you think would happen if doc buffs were changed to max 125%of the stat with SAs?
THAT is what I thought the CU was about. Not this line for line port of EQ2 to SWG. Levels? Bio-Linked (read "Attuned") faction armor? Since when, in any of the Star Warsbooks or movies was Stormtrooper Armor bio-linked? I will bet money that some of the new graphics were added, not to make combat more exciting, but because the EQ2 code required it to function and it was easier to port it over in it's entiriety.
Hybrid Combat/Social or Combat/Crafter is going the way of the dodo asthe CUstands now. The way I understand the CU is that differance in level affects the damage delt out and taken. Instead of defense stacking, it's going to be combat level stacking and once again, those hybrids are going to be left in the dust. How do you think a level 65 MTK / M Brawler / M Merchant is going to do against a level 80 MBH/M Commando / M Smuggler in PvP?
In short:
- Attacking only one stat bar has not gone away just made available to all combat professions and as a result is only a marginal improvement
- Stacking has not been removed. Only changed to combat level stacking. No Improvement.
Okay, name a good thing?
I should be able to swap between EQ2 and SWG with little or no adjustment in functionality. I'll just have to remember not to call Doctors "Clerics".
Porting over the EQ2 code will make maintance easier and hopefully, more content rather than fixes will be added.
I'm glad to see buffs go away.
cpz
Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:56 pm
#39
Wise, wisewords.
LM wrote:
I'd rather have the borked original world of SWG than this handicapped, dumbed-down, level (not skill) based, cartoon-like game that I saw on Test Center