Smuggler Archive
Thread: The events of the last 3 days have been intresting.
Makris wrote:
There is much evidence of contructive ideas coming to fruition in the game. Shall I refer to the Combat Upgrade? I know it wasn't well received upon delivery, but if it weren't for correspondants and players like you and me, that delivery would have never happened.
So, I ask not only you or anyone else, what evidence is there that can prove that flaming and trolling has delivered better content?
I certainly wouldn't hold the combat upgrade up as a shining example of a success story that is attributed to the correspondent system and the developers listening to players. The honest truth is that the CU itself claimed a surprisingly large number of correspondents, and from the polls that SOE ran, the correspondents, the alpha team, and the forum community, all were strongly opposed to the way in which the CU was implemented. Some opinions have changed in hindsight, but that doesn't change the fact that most of the constructive feedback that they were getting during the CU alpha was to scrap it and do it differently.
As far as examples of flaming and trolling delivering better content, the number of examples is long and distinguished. Lets face it, it often takes an uproar to catch their attention. Most of the major recent bug-fixes and balance changes can arguably be attributed to that. Also, very bigdecisions like what the house storage limits should be (Fall '03), how the global bazaar should work (Fall '04), wookie armor (can't recall when that happened)and numerous balance changes to the combat system can arguably be attributed to "flaming and trolling". When enough people get upset about something, something gets done. That has been the history.
I'm not actually saying however that flaming and trolling is the way to go. It makes it an unpleasant environment to be in for all involved. What I'm saying is that constructive feedback to the devs has a pretty bleek history in this MMO, and the devs are going to do what they want to for the most part, with or withoutour feedback.
Message Edited by GoldMemberBria on 08-11-2005 01:42 PM
Kelko wrote:
That could very well be true, only the Devs know for sure. Hell maybe I'll just give in and grind Jedi.....
[dives behind sig]
Just kidding!
GoldMemberBria wrote:
I certainly wouldn't hold the combat upgrade up as a shining example of a success story that is attributed to the correspondent system and the developers listening to players. The honest truth is that the CU itself claimed a surprisingly large number of correspondents, and from the polls that SOE ran, the correspondents, the alpha team, and the forum community, all were strongly opposed to the way in which the CU was implemented. Some opinions have changed in hindsight, but that doesn't change the fact that most of the constructive feedback that they were getting during the CU alpha was to scrap it and do it differently.
As far as examples of flaming and trolling delivering better content, the number of examples is long and distinguished. Lets face it, it often takes an uproar to catch their attention. Most of the major recent bug-fixes and balance changes can arguably be attributed to that. Also, very bigdecisions like what the house storage limits should be (Fall '03), how the global bazaar should work (Fall '04) and numerous balance changes to the combat system can arguably be attributed to "flaming and trolling".
I'm not actually saying however that flaming and trolling is the way to go. What I'm saying is that constructive feedback to the devs has a pretty bleek history in this MMO, and the devs are going to do what they want to for the most part, with or without your feedback.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree there. I can pull up a multitude of lists from correspondents/players collecting outstanding issues that inluded house storage limits and bazaar searching. Maybe our differences are in our idea of what flaming is. To generate a list of outstanding requests for SOE to respond to is doing a service to the community, not flaming.
GoldMemberBria wrote:
Makris wrote:
There is much evidence of contructive ideas coming to fruition in the game. Shall I refer to the Combat Upgrade? I know it wasn't well received upon delivery, but if it weren't for correspondants and players like you and me, that delivery would have never happened.
So, I ask not only you or anyone else, what evidence is there that can prove that flaming and trolling has delivered better content?
I certainly wouldn't hold the combat upgrade up as a shining example of a success story that is attributed to the correspondent system and the developers listening to players. The honest truth is that the CU itself claimed a surprisingly large number of correspondents, and from the polls that SOE ran, the correspondents, the alpha team, and the forum community, all were strongly opposed to the way in which the CU was implemented. Some opinions have changed in hindsight, but that doesn't change the fact that most of the constructive feedback that they were getting during the CU alpha was to scrap it and do it differently.
As far as examples of flaming and trolling delivering better content, the number of examples is long and distinguished. Lets face it, it often takes an uproar to catch their attention. Most of the major recent bug-fixes and balance changes can arguably be attributed to that. Also, very bigdecisions like what the house storage limits should be (Fall '03), how the global bazaar should work (Fall '04), wookie armor (can't recall when that happened)and numerous balance changes to the combat system can arguably be attributed to "flaming and trolling". When enough people get upset about something, something gets done. That has been the history.
I'm not actually saying however that flaming and trolling is the way to go. It makes it an unpleasant environment to be in for all involved. What I'm saying is that constructive feedback to the devs has a pretty bleek history in this MMO, and the devs are going to do what they want to for the most part, with or withoutour feedback.
Message Edited by GoldMemberBria on 08-11-2005 01:42 PM
What he said.. nice and shiny does nothing.. flaming and trolling maybe doesnt do anything but it has a greater overall chance to be heard. Sad but true..
Makris wrote:
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree there. I can pull up a multitude of lists from correspondents/players collecting outstanding issues that inluded house storage limits and bazaar searching. Maybe our differences are in our idea of what flaming is. To generate a list of outstanding requests for SOE to respond to is doing a service to the community, not flaming.
Thomen wrote:
What he said.. nice and shiny does nothing.. flaming and trolling maybe doesnt do anything but it has a greater overall chance to be heard. Sad but true..
Again, I say prove it. If you can show me update or publish notes that says "We'd like to apologize to/thank the community for complaining and whining. We had no idea you had it that bad. We are now delivering (delivered content)" I may agree with you. Hopefully there's very little chance that we can find such notes.
There are many cases where they thank players for their constructive help. For example, in the rubberbanding issue, there were players that walked the Support team through the issue. If you'd like me to pull out those notes I'd be happy to.
Makris wrote:
Thomen wrote:
What he said.. nice and shiny does nothing.. flaming and trolling maybe doesnt do anything but it has a greater overall chance to be heard. Sad but true..
Again, I say prove it. If you can show me update or publish notes that says "We'd like to apologize to/thank the community for complaining and whining. We had no idea you had it that bad. We are now delivering (delivered content)" I may agree with you. Hopefully there's very little chance that we can find such notes.
There are many cases where they thank players for their constructive help. For example, in the rubberbanding issue, there were players that walked the Support team through the issue. If you'd like me to pull out those notes I'd be happy to.
Prove, that"Nice and shiny" does anything for us... As Vola wrote above.. there is enough evidence that "bad behavior" will bring you more as bend willingly over and risk to slip out on a trail of slime you leave behind 
Message Edited by Thomen on 08-11-2005 04:58 PM
Thomen wrote:
Prove, that"Nice and shiny" does anything for us... As Vola wrote above.. there is enough evidence that "bad behavior" will bring you more as bend willingly over and risk to slip out on a trail of slime you leave behind
EDIT: Rubberbanding is still in game, Makris.. dont come with that
Message Edited by Thomen on 08-11-200504:58 PM
Publish 12.1
On behalf of the entire Dev team we would like to extend a big thank you to everyone that helped out on Test Center this weekend and to our Test Center community for being patient with the frogs and visiting guests.
Also, almost all of the letters to the communities tell us the same:
http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/team_comments.jsp?page=Team%20Comments
From Tiggs
- Threads addressed to us (ie Tiggs / Thunderheart / JustG ). Sorry, but if we responded to them, then you'd see hundreds of posts trying to get our attention this way. Threads with our name in the title will almost never see a response from us.
- Private messages asking gameplay questions. When we can answer questions that are posted in discussion threads, we will. But we will not reveal anything privately that we will not reveal in public. If you have questions, you should first read the FAQs and the Game Guides to see if you can find the answer. If you have gameplay questions, please check out the game guides forum, the professions forums, your galaxy forum and interact with the correspondents. (add appropriate links please).
- Messages asking us to respond to a particular thread. We read a great many threads (as many as we can) on these boards and respond in those to which we feel we can best contribute. Asking us to look at or respond to a certain thread will not cause us to answer a question that we otherwise wouldn't.
- Rumors regarding internal SOE matters. Although we would love to debunk every crazy rumor that comes around, if we start responding to that kind of post then certain people will just use them to try to bait a response out of us. We are not going to play that game. The lack of a response from us is not an acknowledgment of truth, just a sign that we won't dignify such threads with a response.
- Requests for beta slots or questions about your beta application (for expansions and extensions from here until the end of time). Posts asking to get into beta or sending us private messages requesting a spot will not receive a response. Nor will questions about whether your application has been received or approved.
- Questions about possible employment. We would love to help you, but we don't have anything to do with who we hire. All we can do is point you to the SOE application page .
Message Edited by Makris on 08-11-2005 04:16 PM
Thomen wrote:
Makris wrote:
Thomen wrote:
What he said.. nice and shiny does nothing.. flaming and trolling maybe doesnt do anything but it has a greater overall chance to be heard. Sad but true..
Again, I say prove it. If you can show me update or publish notes that says "We'd like to apologize to/thank the community for complaining and whining. We had no idea you had it that bad. We are now delivering (delivered content)" I may agree with you. Hopefully there's very little chance that we can find such notes.
There are many cases where they thank players for their constructive help. For example, in the rubberbanding issue, there were players that walked the Support team through the issue. If you'd like me to pull out those notes I'd be happy to.
Prove, that"Nice and shiny" does anything for us... As Vola wrote above.. there is enough evidence that "bad behavior" will bring you more as bend willingly over and risk to slip out on a trail of slime you leave behind
EDIT: Rubberbanding is still in game, Makris.. dont come with that
Message Edited by Thomen on 08-11-2005 04:58 PM
This isn't a fight. I'm not "coming" with anything 
.
But I also brought up the CU, which was all constructive community oriented.
The only thing I find satisfaction in at this point is holding those facts in front of their faces. Holding them to their words and demanding the respect and attention we not only have deserved, but have been told we would get time and again.
Our discussion wasn't based on whether or not you or I like a delivery. It was based on what that delivery was based on: Flaming or Constructive discussions. It was obvious that it was the latter. Not a flame, but whether or not we like this game or any publishes is another discussion.
TashunkaSapa wrote:
Makris wrote:
There is much evidence of contructive ideas coming to fruition in the game. Shall I refer to the Combat Upgrade?
You mean, the OTHER major overhaul that they continued to push back and break promises about? The one that was only 1 1/2 years late instead of 2?
Yeah, I tried the nice approach with that - didn't help. Then I QUIT until they delivered what they promised. If all we are is dollars on the bottom line to them, then that's the only way we're going to get through to them. You're deluding yourself if you think they want cooperation. If that's what truly mattered to them, would they have deleted the entire concept thread for the Smuggler revamp? Of course not, they are going to do it their way (if they ever do it at all), regardless of whether you like it or not, and regardless of whether you are "nice" or not.
So again I will remind you that, in order for compassion and forbearance to be valuable, they must not be squandered upon those to whom such concepts are meaningless. I'll be "nice" to people who actually deserve it, thanks.
SmugglinZane wrote:
That doesn't mean we have to "kill them with kindness". I can be constructive and polite while still being a firm and demanding b@stard, which I plan on being til the day I die. Polite isn't even something that would be required in it, just not being an inflamatory ass would suffice.
At this point, history has shown us that NOTHING WORKS. We've tried just about every avenue aside from protesting outside SOE and LA offices. Niceness got us nowhere. Months of constructive posts got us nowhere. Showing them the facts got us nowhere.
The only thing I find satisfaction in at this point is holding those facts in front of their faces. Holding them to their words and demanding the respect and attention we not only have deserved, but have been told we would get time and again.
Until they are willing to sit down and engage in a dialogue with the players who have waited longer for something than any other group, kindness and constructiveness is wasted. They see things differently than we do, but they will not discuss it. After years of just asking to discuss it, with no meaningful outcome, I find it insulting that I'm told all I have to do is be nice and constructive.
I totally agree. Keck and Angus getting banned, bless their hearts, didn't get us an upgrade. But if anyone of us work, which I'm sure most of us do, we know that a good client is a client that can get us information. Especially for developers. People can cry and whine, but developers can't read their minds and find out why.