Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)
Mawock
Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:37 pm
#16
I would like to see smugglers have more of a choice when it comes to slicing armor/weps so that the smuggler could choose what the desired effect will be. If I want to slice my chest plate for effectiveness, I could pop on somethin along the lines of a flow analyzer and run the risk of screwing up the slice and slicing for low%encumbrance slice, but ifI suceed with the slice, I get the desired slice. I really wouldn't like to see 100% success tools comin out to guarentee a specific slice, so that its a little more rewarding when you gamble with the slices. Also, I would like to see some kind of system where if I didn't like my first slice for the weapon/armor, a higher level smuggler can take another whack at it and try to slice it again, with the risk of destroying the armor, or some other kind of punishment. Just an idea 
HimFan
Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:41 pm
#17
GreenMarine wrote:
Summary 1: The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.
Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:
- Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
- CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.
That sounds about right. If you dont want to PvP, then stay away form the good stuff.
Summary 2: The second major issue revolved around the punishments for being caught with contraband:
- Some players feel that dying isn't enough of a punishment.
- Some players recommended a faction hit.
- Some players feel that storm troopers are too weak.
- Players don't like that only storm troopers scan.
Solution: The solution obviously has several parts. We need to discuss more what the punishments should be. There are a few types of punishment that we can draw from:
- Loss of GCW faction.
- Loss of NPC faction.
- Combat & risk of death.
- Confiscation of the illegal goods.
I hope when you say "illegal" items, you mean just the ones you got from a smuggling mission (not a sliced gun). If thats the case then YEAH, you took the risk and failed the mission. Why shouldnt you have your items taken away? What also mightwork as a"harder" punishment would be to have the person that got scaned be banned from the area (as soon as they walk into Mos Espa they get a TEF). So now not only did they die, lose their items, and piss Jabba off, but they cant re-enter the area they were scaned in for 24 hours. Also, if you did "lose" Jabbas item, wouldnt that mean you wouldnt be going back to see Jabba anytime soon?
Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.
Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.
I cant really comment of this because I dont have any understanding to how good these new spices/slices might be. I have full faiththat GreenMarine will keep his word and give us some crazy new spices.
In closing, I feel that GreenMarine knows what the community wants and will do his best to deliver. No other Dev has ever come across so to the point before. He is lessoning and doing a great job keeping up with our every demand (he even has a few ideas that I posted in the forum months ago). I glad that our revamp was delayed,orGreenMarine wouldnt have been working on it.
Keep up the great work GreenMarine, the community is behide your every idea. 
Mor-Dan
Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:47 pm
#18
if the punishment is too harsh, it will cause a depression in the slicing market. but honestly, that would be a "good" thing. smuggling is about making money "smuggling", not just enhancing weapons.
i know this deals indirectly with smuggling, but i have noticed a contingent that would also like to see illegal items not be avaiable for purchase off of vendors or bazaars. they fact that they are plays more to the player base than the continuity of the GCW. anything found on the bazaar to be illegal would be immediately confiscated by imperial forces. spices and sliced weapons/armour should not be able to be found at the corner store.
armoursmiths and weaponsmiths will complain that it takes away from their business or increases their cost. that is definitely true. but the combat revamp is going to make us all weaker than we are currently used to being. it is still necessary for continuity and game balance though. that is a minor thing to take away from a Weaponsmith/Smuggler or Armoursmith/Smuggler and throws the business of slicing to those that should have it... smugglers who aren't crafters.
as for spice and slicing tools, it sends people looking for their "pusher". it causes it to feel more like a "habit" because you can start building an actual clientel. we also need experimentation and for resources used to mean something to differentiate our products. just as people will seek out the best weapons and armour, they should also be able to find the best "smuggler".
i know this deals indirectly with smuggling, but i have noticed a contingent that would also like to see illegal items not be avaiable for purchase off of vendors or bazaars. they fact that they are plays more to the player base than the continuity of the GCW. anything found on the bazaar to be illegal would be immediately confiscated by imperial forces. spices and sliced weapons/armour should not be able to be found at the corner store.
armoursmiths and weaponsmiths will complain that it takes away from their business or increases their cost. that is definitely true. but the combat revamp is going to make us all weaker than we are currently used to being. it is still necessary for continuity and game balance though. that is a minor thing to take away from a Weaponsmith/Smuggler or Armoursmith/Smuggler and throws the business of slicing to those that should have it... smugglers who aren't crafters.
as for spice and slicing tools, it sends people looking for their "pusher". it causes it to feel more like a "habit" because you can start building an actual clientel. we also need experimentation and for resources used to mean something to differentiate our products. just as people will seek out the best weapons and armour, they should also be able to find the best "smuggler".
KaernLegorah
Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:13 pm
#19
Great post Green Marine. I really love where you're taking this!
For Contraband punishments, I think we all agree that the punishment increases as we get into more illegal items. I think that anything Quasi-legal shouldn't result in confiscation or being attacked. I think being fined credits, and loss of factions points (either GCW, NPC, or even both) is enough of a punishment. When I think of Quasi-legal Contraband I think of items that lower/middle class players (being their economic standing) would rather not get caught with due to the fines, but that upper-crust rich players don't worry about (y'know, because they're rich!
). This is somewhat similar to our own legal system, where some rich or high-profile people aren't worried about being fined for speeding, parking improperly, or even slightly worse violations. Also, if you get scanned by a GCW NPC then the fine should be reduced the higher in Rank you get. I don't know if it's possible Green Marine, but could the same thing work for NPC factions? If I have 5000 Jabba standing, then can the game detect that and give me a slight fine reduction?
The Quasi-legal punishment system is certainly tailored to be easy on the rich players, yet harsh on the poorer players. But, this makes some sense, mainly because the Quasi-legal items will be the much weaker Spices and less high-end items. These are the items that the poor/middle-class players can afford, so they are the most likely to purchase them. The richer players want the best goods, so they're going to head for the more illegal items.
Now, let's think about Banned goods. Banned good should be subject to confiscation, perhaps if there are multiple items or a stack of items then only a partial confiscation of the goods. Any faction loss imposed should be harsher than what you'd get hit with for having Quasi-legal Contraband, but higher Ranked players once again should have lesser losses. They DO still need to receive some kind of loss at the Banned goods level. You may be a Colonel, but your superiors won't think you're such a great officer if you're toting around Banned items! There could still be a fine in terms of credits, but I think players should also be given a choice: lose faction standing, or lose credits. The amount of credits lost would have to be somewhat significant, at least high enough that players would consider giving up faction points rather than take a hit to the wallet but still not too much so that most players can afford the pay the fine. This would equate to you "pulling Rank" to get out of the fine, but by doing so you'd still receive a penalty in the form of Faction point loss.
Highly Illegal Contraband will definitely carry a chance of getting attacked. In fact you should get attacked 99% of the time, and goods should get confiscated 100% of the time. Maybe, just for a slightly realistic feel, if you're carrying multiple Highly Illegal goods, or a stack of goods then a very small amount would remain in your inventory, as if the scanners missed that list bit of Spice at the bottom of your pack! For GCW scans, Rank should have barely any effect at all so that only very highly ranked players even notice the difference. Fines in terms of credits should be substantial, but like with Banned goods, the fine could perhaps be lessened or wiped completely if you sacrifice faction points (or even an entire Rank). Again, fines would have to be quite high to make the concept of losing factions points actually seem like a good alternative, but not so high that we're making everybody bankrupt! I want to stress that while Rank does lower the penalty at this level it is not a significant amount. The goods you're carrying were not only banned, but given a class HIGHER than that! Banned wasn't a strong enough description for these items, and there is NO WAY anybody is going to let you off the hook easily no matter how high your rank is.
I do like the idea of a rating above Highly Illegal (though I don't care for the term Military Class... no offense GM! ) This class of items would certainly carry the most extreme penalties. Faction Rank should actually work against players at this level. A Private caught with these items is going to be in hot water (attacked, items confiscated, VERY VERY HEAVY fine or faction point loss), but a Colonel (who should be setting a good example for his troops!) should be dipped in hot lava for 6 minutes before being baked, roasted, sauteed, and flame-broiled (attacked, items confiscated, EXTREME fine or faction point loss or even loss of Ranks). This class of items is a great idea, but I agree it should wait until after the main part of the revamp.
Summary of what I think is fair:
Quasi-legal - Mild Fines, and Faction loss. Both can be reduced by Rank (in the case of GCW scans) a significant amount. Confiscation if rare (5-20% chance), and this never results in being attacked.
Banned - Medium Fines and Factions loss again. Both can be reduced by Rank (for GCW scans) but it is a less effective reduction at this level. If only being Fined, player can choose to lose Faction points instead. Confiscation is common (40-70% of the time at least), and being attacked is rare (5% chance).
Highly Illegal - Heavy Fines and Faction loss. Both can be reduced by Rank (for GCW scans) but the reduction only applies to very high ranks and is not a significant reduction. If only being Fined, player can choose to lose Faction points instead. Confiscation is near absolute (90-100%), and attacks are very common (60-90%).
Military Class - Dude, just hang up your coat. You've lost
I can't say enough how much I appreciate what you're doing GM. Smuggler is the first profession I ever became when I bought this game one year ago, and I've loved the profession ever since. I'm extremely excited reading the changes you're proposing, and want to thank you for giving us such a high level of involvement.
I shall now sing a song.... /sing Did you ever know that you're my heeeeeeeerroooooo!
For Contraband punishments, I think we all agree that the punishment increases as we get into more illegal items. I think that anything Quasi-legal shouldn't result in confiscation or being attacked. I think being fined credits, and loss of factions points (either GCW, NPC, or even both) is enough of a punishment. When I think of Quasi-legal Contraband I think of items that lower/middle class players (being their economic standing) would rather not get caught with due to the fines, but that upper-crust rich players don't worry about (y'know, because they're rich!
). This is somewhat similar to our own legal system, where some rich or high-profile people aren't worried about being fined for speeding, parking improperly, or even slightly worse violations. Also, if you get scanned by a GCW NPC then the fine should be reduced the higher in Rank you get. I don't know if it's possible Green Marine, but could the same thing work for NPC factions? If I have 5000 Jabba standing, then can the game detect that and give me a slight fine reduction?The Quasi-legal punishment system is certainly tailored to be easy on the rich players, yet harsh on the poorer players. But, this makes some sense, mainly because the Quasi-legal items will be the much weaker Spices and less high-end items. These are the items that the poor/middle-class players can afford, so they are the most likely to purchase them. The richer players want the best goods, so they're going to head for the more illegal items.
Now, let's think about Banned goods. Banned good should be subject to confiscation, perhaps if there are multiple items or a stack of items then only a partial confiscation of the goods. Any faction loss imposed should be harsher than what you'd get hit with for having Quasi-legal Contraband, but higher Ranked players once again should have lesser losses. They DO still need to receive some kind of loss at the Banned goods level. You may be a Colonel, but your superiors won't think you're such a great officer if you're toting around Banned items! There could still be a fine in terms of credits, but I think players should also be given a choice: lose faction standing, or lose credits. The amount of credits lost would have to be somewhat significant, at least high enough that players would consider giving up faction points rather than take a hit to the wallet but still not too much so that most players can afford the pay the fine. This would equate to you "pulling Rank" to get out of the fine, but by doing so you'd still receive a penalty in the form of Faction point loss.
Highly Illegal Contraband will definitely carry a chance of getting attacked. In fact you should get attacked 99% of the time, and goods should get confiscated 100% of the time. Maybe, just for a slightly realistic feel, if you're carrying multiple Highly Illegal goods, or a stack of goods then a very small amount would remain in your inventory, as if the scanners missed that list bit of Spice at the bottom of your pack! For GCW scans, Rank should have barely any effect at all so that only very highly ranked players even notice the difference. Fines in terms of credits should be substantial, but like with Banned goods, the fine could perhaps be lessened or wiped completely if you sacrifice faction points (or even an entire Rank). Again, fines would have to be quite high to make the concept of losing factions points actually seem like a good alternative, but not so high that we're making everybody bankrupt! I want to stress that while Rank does lower the penalty at this level it is not a significant amount. The goods you're carrying were not only banned, but given a class HIGHER than that! Banned wasn't a strong enough description for these items, and there is NO WAY anybody is going to let you off the hook easily no matter how high your rank is.
I do like the idea of a rating above Highly Illegal (though I don't care for the term Military Class... no offense GM!
) This class of items would certainly carry the most extreme penalties. Faction Rank should actually work against players at this level. A Private caught with these items is going to be in hot water (attacked, items confiscated, VERY VERY HEAVY fine or faction point loss), but a Colonel (who should be setting a good example for his troops!) should be dipped in hot lava for 6 minutes before being baked, roasted, sauteed, and flame-broiled (attacked, items confiscated, EXTREME fine or faction point loss or even loss of Ranks). This class of items is a great idea, but I agree it should wait until after the main part of the revamp.Summary of what I think is fair:
Quasi-legal - Mild Fines, and Faction loss. Both can be reduced by Rank (in the case of GCW scans) a significant amount. Confiscation if rare (5-20% chance), and this never results in being attacked.
Banned - Medium Fines and Factions loss again. Both can be reduced by Rank (for GCW scans) but it is a less effective reduction at this level. If only being Fined, player can choose to lose Faction points instead. Confiscation is common (40-70% of the time at least), and being attacked is rare (5% chance).
Highly Illegal - Heavy Fines and Faction loss. Both can be reduced by Rank (for GCW scans) but the reduction only applies to very high ranks and is not a significant reduction. If only being Fined, player can choose to lose Faction points instead. Confiscation is near absolute (90-100%), and attacks are very common (60-90%).
Military Class - Dude, just hang up your coat. You've lost
I can't say enough how much I appreciate what you're doing GM. Smuggler is the first profession I ever became when I bought this game one year ago, and I've loved the profession ever since. I'm extremely excited reading the changes you're proposing, and want to thank you for giving us such a high level of involvement.
I shall now sing a song.... /sing Did you ever know that you're my heeeeeeeerroooooo!
KaernLegorah
Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:24 pm
#20
KaptainKrude wrote:One point that I can add is that I really like the way you split the Normal/Critical missions. I'm ok with a player choosing not to risk PvP involvement, but that's only ok with me as long as the player choosing the "visible" mission is rewarded more greatly for it.Kudos.
I agree, and I think it's emphasized by what RogueCloudwalker was talking about when he said: "If its optional that I can face an NPC or a PC, I'll choose the NPC everytime because I will always win
The reward for doing a Critical mission (or for stealing the goods from such a mission) would have to be good enough that players are willing to risk the PvP. Sure they could do a Normal mission and beat the NPC BH every single time, but they don't have that chance of stealing the more rare and/or better loot from the mission and they get less payout if they complete the mission normally. If players aren't compromised adequately for doing (or stealing from) Critical missions, then everybody is going to take RogueCloudwalker's attitude and just pound on NPC BHs.
I'm not picking on you personally RogueCloudwalker, but your comment pretty well sums up why the reward for Critical missions has to be good enough to be worth the extra risk.
Mackle
Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:28 pm
#21
GreenMarine wrote:
Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.
What immediately popped into my head when reading this line was this... make any missions that could result in PvP "bonus" missions, or offshoots of the original mission.
Example 1: Jabba has me run a shipment of glitterstim to a contact on Lok. As the mission progresses, I find out from an NPC at the spot I was supposed to meet Jabba's contact that he hasgone into hidingbecause ofthreats from some of Nym's local goons. This NPC, also an associate of Nym, instead offers me some work for him.
At this point I am given the option to a.) continue on the regular mission, and meet up withJabba's contact as originally planned, but in the new hidden location; or b.) take up the offer from Nym's thug, knowing very well that the added "visibility" or Jabba faction hit could land me on a Bounty Hunter terminal courtesy of Jabbahimself.
This way, the risk of PvP from BH's is my own choice.
Example 2: A Rebel sympathizer on Corellia is looking for someone to smuggle a shipment of highly illegal weapons intoacenter of Imperial power to help supply some Rebs planning anight attack ona weapons production factory. This mission is high paying, but is really only for the most suicidal pf smugglers. The factory in question isinBestine, and Imps have already gotten word from an informant that Rebel insurgentsare planning something on Tatooine this evening, and are on their highest security alert.
At this point, I have a number of choices: I can a.) take the mission myself, and understand that I will be overt as soon as I am spotted by the first Imp NPC on Tat, andattackable to ALL Imps, NPC and PC, until I return to the mission giver with proof of delivery; or I can b.) deliver the weapons to a third party NPC smuggler for a lesser reward, but would only be faced with attacks from thug NPCs en route, or c.) I could keep the weapons myself and take a huge Rebel faction hit.
Going this route, it even allows the opportunity for non-Smugglers to take part in our missions. If I decide to deliver the weapons myself to the Rebels hiding in Bestine, I might ask my friends to go overt and raid Bestine at the same time I am arriving there, to create a diversion as well as remove some of the Imp NPCs that I will need to avoid to complete my mission. Also, since the mission is on a timer, the Rebel attack itself could go off while we are there, and we could not only witness it, we could take part in it.
Basically, as long as the player can always choose a non-PvP path within the mission, he will have only himself to blame if he gambles and loses. 
Message Edited by Mackle on 06-21-2004 11:34 PM
KaernLegorah
Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:34 pm
#22
Gotta say Mackle, that I liked the idea behind you first example right off the bat. Very cool concept, and a great way to integrate the choice of PvP vs. PvE.
The second example I didn't like at first, but the more I read it the more I like it. Especially the idea of having people raid Bestine as a diversion, very very cool!
Great ideas
The second example I didn't like at first, but the more I read it the more I like it. Especially the idea of having people raid Bestine as a diversion, very very cool!
Great ideas
neros666
Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:36 pm
#23
This interests me. I dont know if i just didnt read something posted, but does this mean that there are going to be factional controlled territories? Are we finally going to be able to fight for land area? If that is what that means, than I am getting more excited by the hour.
GreenMarine wrote:
It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory? They aren't going to like spice abuse much either. Rebel commanders could then have some immunity from scans in their home regions. Naboo's Royal Security Force (a neutral faction) might also scan and have their own forces to deal with violators.
sce33
Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:37 pm
#24
While i belive whole hartley that the smuggler and BH professions need to be seriously revemped, i dont feel the community should have to cater to thoes smugglers who don't wish to enguage in pvp. You chose your profession, affiliation, guild ect...knowing the "risks" of the prefession before you start grinding the first point of xp.
The only possible reson i can see for a demand for non pvp smugglers are that the smuggler community must be concerned that there aren't adiquit combat skills to protect them from BH. to which i have two points to make.
- Have faith in the devs and this revemp, i have a feeling that its going to be hudge. I didn't know what to expect for the jedi revamp and i have spent the last month on TC, all i can say is WOW! And for as much as the smugglers have complained for the past year i can't imagin it being adisapointment. (smuggler was my first profession 11 months and 30 professions ago
) - Im not sure smuggler was ever meant to be a "combat" profession by it self. I always thought of it as more a bonus profession to pistoleer and hopefuly one day tk.Also with 2 more professions at you finger tips after you master smuggler theres no reason people who are concerned with being attacked can't defend them selfs.
To me its an all or nothing situation, either your the big time master smuggler out running imperial star cruisers to make your shipmentof illegal fire arms to the Hutts for a great rewardand prestigue, or your the bumbling fool who sneaks a stick of bubble gum out of the local dollar store. To me the second option sounds more like a thiefe and less like a smuggler.
**Last point here... I play jedi knowing all to well the benifit/risk relationship. Now i know its a whole diffrent ball game, but hear me out on this. I gain visability from using force, fighting players, ect ect ect but i continue to do so because thatsthe profession i chose to play. If i die, i die.. you win some you lose some, but look on the bright side smugglers, you dont lose anything but a set of buffs and a little dignety when you die. suck it up!
Summary 2:
Just a thought on the penality and reward system. First off i think that while st's should be and are doing random serches, i think probots should be doing the majority of the work. I think they should be a very active unattackable part of the game. Not uncommon to see 15-20 floating around large commercial areas and through out the planet. I think in my time on adventure planet i have ran into a probot once.
As for your benifit reward system i suggest a real "under world" when players can earn names for them selfs by suscessful missions, or counter BH attacks and become real world famous smugglers. Similar to a ladder system on D2 where the most sucessful smuggler can demand higher prices and negioate further based soley onhis/her rep. Smuggler could compete for player or npc contracts and death by either npc or Bh woul greatly effect this ladder system. And you could even add bonus tothe higest lvls of players on the ladder system. ie... greater suscess when expermenting on spices, higher or better avrage quality slices. ect...
This would create a real under world feel, players would seek out the most experincedsmugglers to do there dirty work and would create great competintionin the smuggler community. cause lets face it, if your not smuggling it, someone else will. I doubt solo was friends with any of his rivials.
Message Edited by sce33 on 06-22-2004 12:05 AM
KaernLegorah
Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:40 pm
#25
neros666 wrote:This interests me. I dont know if i just didnt read something posted, but does this mean that there are going to be factional controlled territories? Are we finally going to be able to fight for land area? If that is what that means, than I am getting more excited by the hour.
GreenMarine wrote:It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory? They aren't going to like spice abuse much either. Rebel commanders could then have some immunity from scans in their home regions. Naboo's Royal Security Force (a neutral faction) might also scan and have their own forces to deal with violators.
That's something that was in the original GCW plans (at least I could swear I remember hearing of it way back when). Bases and such that Rebels and Imperials could fight over. They wouldn't be destroyed like bases you buy from Recruiters, but would be permanent. There are a couple bases like this already (one is on Naboo), but I don't think you get any benefits for taking them over.
Attaching this to the GCW would be a great idea. Smugglers could possibly help sway the balance of the war by doing more than just fighting!
silversaber
Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:47 pm
#26
GreenMarine wrote:
- Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
- CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.
The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.
I have to disagree GM. I have ALL the faith in the world that youcan make a PvE consequence that would be FAR tougher than any Player can be.
I mean, how hard is it for you guys to make a NPC that hashit points greater than a Playerfully buffed? That can see through FD? That can go through any wall? That can have twice the firepower than any player can have?
Just because its a NPC with AI, does NOT mean it cannot be a extreme risk andchallenge!
So, why are we going to be stuck with lesser missions witha lesser reward?
Is it so that the BH's feel that they are needed?
I still maintain that just because an opposing player is not operating under an AI that it will be automatically more of an risk is pure BUNK!
Measures can be taken to equal or even exceed the risk of another player.
Message Edited by silversaber on 06-22-2004 12:01 AM