Smuggler Archive
Thread: Depending On Smugglers
Oh, i definitely agree that what we're asking for is, at this point, no more than what other professions get in many respects, except that we're running up against a perceptual difference here. People accept those aspects of gameplay because they're established already and they've gotten used to them. They're resistant to us suggesting the addition of similar changes because they HAVEN'T gotten used to them and therefore think they wouldn't be fun. And maybe they wouldn't be for those players. I can't say. The thing is, NONE of us will be able to say for certain, even if this gets tested on TC, until it goes to live and the bulk of players try it out for probably around 2 months or so. At that point, I think they'd come to accept the general structure and limitations, and would begin to work to fine-tune things. Which, so long as you didn't gut the underlying concepts of the revamp, would be ok.
It's like I said. This one's gonna come down to what SOE thinks is both fun and good for the game. If they view our proposals as un-fun or not good for the game, they won't do what we want, and I'll leave the game. Not in protest, but just because it'll be clear to me at that point that what I want and the direction that the game is going are two very very different things, and I'd rather not pay $15 a month for a game that doesn't entertain me. I'm doing that right now and the only reason I'm still paying is because I have this teeny tiny glimmer of hope that SOE may come through for us. Then again, maybe I'm no better than your average Red Sox fan.
I have something to fall back on if our devs take SWG down stupid paths like Wolfpack did with Shadowbane. I preordered to so I'll be in the beta in no later than 5 days! 
StGabriel wrote:
If you truly feel this way then you have yet to actually read this thread.
Hmm, since I'm so "dense", which post was it exactly that provided an argument for why the proposed contraband systems are fun, for me, a non-smuggler?\
StGabe.Message Edited by StGabriel on 04-01-2004 10:53 AM
quick link for those who can't see a thread thats been on page 1 of the GCW forum for the past 3 days
Message Edited by Ipseck on 04-02-2004 07:18 AM
You are misunderstanding this quote.
If smuggling remains in the game, then it offers a huge advantage to players and the game is such that, in order to be competitive, I have to use slicing. If slicing as a whole were taken out of the game (which is analogous to your example of the PvP damage reduction), then that would be a whole different story as no one would have it and we would remain on equal footing. I would not -have- to use slicing to be competitive with other top-tier players. And I would be absolutely fine with that, at least in principle. I wouldn't mind, for example, that relative to PvE content I was weakened. I'm already solo'ing stuff too easily.
What I am objecting to is a system where, to be competitive, I have to endeavor in fundamentally unfun content. If you lower or raise the overall level of power, then that's basically fine by me. Personally I think things could be toned down a bit but that's just a personal opinion. However if you create game systems where the primary manners of succeeding involve fundamentally unfun play, then the game will simply suffer as a whole.
We premise our arguments on a certain definition and concept of "fun" that just doesn't match up with yours.
If so, then you can step back and take my point as follows: my concept of fun is one that is going to be "jive" with a large portion of the playerbase. You are seeking to make an unfun game for us. We already saw this with the past contraband scan where many of the "strong" aspects of the system were nearly universally disliked outside of the smuggler community. If you are admitting that my "aesthetic" for fun is valid if not the same as yours then I think you can easily see from the reaction to the last contraband pass that my aesthetic is not only valid but also popular.
And thus I ask: on what basis are you putting fourth your ideas? Your concept is unfun accordint to a popular concept of fun. You're trying to sell rap to a crowd that loves bebop and they're just not gonna dig it.
If we can't convince them that our definition and their definition matches up, then the argument is over and it's time to find another game to play.
I think you guys already have your feedback. The devs heard you loud and clear on contraband the last time and disagreed with you. You might want to claim that your concerns were not really voiced, but I think this is simply un-true, and I could dig up a post by Jeassa to back this. You say that there is really nothing to argue about and that's simply not true. Look at the DE's. They "lost" their first round of revamp because the things that they wanted were not feasible. Now by persisting in following the same ideas, they lost a lot of crucial dev time that could have been spent on their profession (and as a result we see that combat droids above CL10 are WAY pushed back). While many DE's may feel that, if they don't get their way, the profession is doomed, that is clearly not true. The ideal held by a certain group may not be reached, but the profession will still work for a lot of other people that are not so set on one particular way of play. Game development involves healthy doses of compromise. At present there are lots of venues to be followed. How do players feel about your changes? Not just a handful of GCW'ers, but the whole population? How must does your concept of "fun" jive with theirs? If it doesn't jive, what middle ground is there? How can you look for fun content that is fun to you and also fun for non-smugglers?
All this post was EVER trying to say is: look, a lot of people don't agree with you that this is fun AND now is the best time to deal with that. If you wait until later, then you've just lost a lot of time and momentum that could have gone into making a good revamp.
Also, I would still like a good discussion of what exactly your guys definition of fun is. I haven't seen a good argument for why this is fun by ANY definition of fun. How is this even fun for smugglers? Once you get past the whole concept of legality, you're providing a basically boring and routine service, day-in and day out. Your sales presumably drop AND you are in constant tell-hell from people all over the galaxy needing you to hop around and do them a favor. That's just your end of things. By what definition are things fun for me? In order to be competitive (I know it's strange, but I do want to be a successful player that competes well with other players -- that is exactly what achievers tend to want) I now need to enlist the aid of a smuggler in the 10-20 shuttle trips I make a day OR put up with an endless headache.
Heck, look at the Jedi system. The problem there was that people DO really want to be successful in the game and yet the options for succeeding with Jedi were unfun (by the majority's concept of fun) and bad for the game. Now while people stepped in to say, "hey it's just your -choice- to try for a Jedi", I think that we can agree that the choice between not even attempting to succeed at an important part of the game or having to put up with substantial amount of unfun content is a fundamentally bad one and not a good way to setup a game.
I know you guys want a "feel" of illegality and risk. But the thing is, a "feel" for the game only lasts a certain while. The first few contraband scans I had were cool. AFter that they are just an annoyance (can I outrun this scan guy or will I have to bother to kill off a squad of ST's -- gee, free fp's -- and then go find a recruiter sucking up half an hour of my limited play time?). The first few times I went through the Geonosian caves I was absolutely awe-struck. What a cool dungeon. That has faded though. It's still a cool dungeon, but it's now just part of the game. The time has passed that I "experience" the Geo caves and now I PLAY the caves. I think that both smugglers and non-smugglers would find that after experiencing your proposed changes, the actual play stinks.
But what I'm asking is: by what definition of "fun" are the proposed changes, indeed, actually fun?
If you can't answer that for ANY concept of fun then it's going to hard to nail down for specific concepts of fun and in particular, the concepts of fun that pervade the general player base. It's not enough to leave this "fun" up to my imagination as really this whole concept is, as Dilune pointed out, something that YOU guys need to sell to US, the rest of the player base. And you need to sell more than we need to buy. You might think that's sad, that you have to "sell" your concept, but then you have to realize that the commodity here is fun. And if we're not having fun, then is this even really a game anymore?
StGabe.
"We don't need to reply to this post". "This isn't the thread you're looking for." "You should go on about your Forum's business." "MOVE ALONG. MOVE ALONG"As I continue to read post after post made by St Gabe, the same theme keeps rearing it's ugly head. Somehow everyone on this board is either misunderstanding, misreading, or misinterpreting St Gabe's thoughts, attitude, and demeanor. I have some news for you Gabe, if this is the case then maybe it's time you learn to communicate. You counter every statement that addresses one of your quotes as being contrary to what you meant. Now I'm not sure how you can represent the voice of your profession when you can't even convey simple ideas, but what I can tell is you are not here to provide any constructive results.
I find it hard to believe that someone can come in here and say the things you've said. Maybe it's time you read the countless threads in this forum that speak of ways of adding smuggler content without taking anything away from you. The only thing that has continued to happen here is that you have further degraded yourself by insisting that the one thing that belongs to smugglers does not. I think it's time I go pick up a sword and demand the skills to wield it without becoming a swordsman. You will not answer to basic arguments with anything other than political rhetoric, and an attempt to throw it back at the other person without so much as a justifiable statement.
You have been asked by numerous members of this forum, who are SMUGGLERS, to leave. Continuing in the manner that you have only creates a greater rift in the SWG community, which is not something you should be promoting. Either offer something constructive, something that involves anything other than the smugglers taking the shaft on an already shorted profession, or go troll your own boards. Quit making arguments about why they should take away our ONLY benefits of being a smuggler, and make some suggestions that are worthwhile. I'm throwing your most common retort back at you Gabe. So let's get back to the subject or leave the smugglers alone already.
Fortunately I have the time to have an opinion as a player and to do my job as a correspondent.
How many times do we have to knock the swordsman down before he/she/it gets a clue and stops posting?
I have yet to really see a reply that gives any detailed explanation of how many of the enhanced contraband suggestions would actually be fun for anyone. As such I hardly feel "knocked down".
You counter every statement that addresses one of your quotes as being contrary to what you meant. Now I'm not sure how you can represent the voice of your profession when you can't even convey simple ideas, but what I can tell is you are not here to provide any constructive results.
What can I say. It boggles me that I'm not being better understood here. I'm simply stating an opinion that the ideas I tend to see presented in this forum aren't in line with what I see as a fun game. I think you guys will find that many have this same feeling when/if your ideas hit a larger audience or get considered by the devs. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't been terribly convinced by any of the discussion here. Either way I can't see how this dialogue would be anything but helpful. Your ideas WILL have to sell to the devs and WILL have to sell to other players. If nothing else, I'm your practice audience.
I find it hard to believe that someone can come in here and say the things you've said. Maybe it's time you read the countless threads in this forum that speak of ways of adding smuggler content without taking anything away from you. The only thing that has continued to happen here is that you have further degraded yourself by insisting that the one thing that belongs to smugglers does not.
I haven't seen these threads. I've looked and not seen them. I -have- said that I am only reacting to a certain type of suggestion and that there may well be suggestions that aren't really covered by what I'm saying here. If so, that's great. No problem here, move along. Most of the folks here seem to be corroborating, however, that their ideas about contraband and smuggling imply inherent annoyance for other players.
As for the latter part of that, I sense a consistent thread of attempting to discredit me instead of attempting to discredit my ideas. Bah humbug to that. I'm engaging in honest, polite, discussion here. If you think that my arguments and comments are poorly constructed then you really should have no need to assault my character. The devs aren't stupid and if the players really support your suggestions then I'll just be wrong. No harm done.
If someone does wish to address my opinions and comments here and not mount an assault on my character, I still wish someone would take the time to explain me how the proposed "enhanced" contraband systems are to be fun. By any plausible definition of fun.
StGabe.