Smuggler Archive
Thread: Depending On Smugglers
StGabriel wrote:
However no one has provided a semblance of a good argument here for why the proposed changes are, actually, fun for me, the end player.
If you truly feel this way then you have yet to actually read this thread.
Argh...why won't this thread die? But I can't help contributing to the problem...
In response to Gabe's last post: Your notion of fun and my notion of fun are obviously at cross purposes. I find that a great many messages -- especially those that deal with contraband, but also those about the proposed shuttle changes -- refer to "inconvenient delays" when going from planet A, where they currently are,to planet B, which is presumably where all the "fun" is. A great many people view shuttle delays and, in your case, contraband scans as a tiresome obstacle standing between them and their "fun", and this spawns the ever-popular "I only have two hours to play, so stop stealing 22.3% of my fun" argument.
What never occurs to anyone, it seems, is that an event that interferes with your schedule is not, by definition, un-fun. I'm sorry if you're ten minutes late for your two-hour quenker-hunting binge, but does it ever occur to anyone to embrace the "fun" of this unexpected event? There have been a great many times when I was sad to see the shuttle arrive because I was either conducting business, or in the middle of a great conversation.
And I have always LOVED contraband scans, even when I wasn't a smuggler. As has been stated repeatedly, the original design of the crackdown had nothing to do with smugglers -- it was put in because the devs believed that the risk of being caught with contraband and jumped by stormtroopers would be fun for the players. Just because it isn't your idea of "fun" doesn't make ita bad idea, so it may not be the smugglers that are being selfish in this particular argument.
Shrendyc wrote:
We just need to stop responding to him. It's evident that he's not here to help us at all, so why bother trying to get him to see our point of view? No one is this dense;I mean, my DOG get the concept of risk versus reward. Gabe's continued arguments here justleads to the conclusion he's just trolling to get us worked up. Let it go, it's not worth it anymore.
While I understand completely, the one thing that just gets me so angry is such blatant stupidity/ignorance.
It is VERY difficult not to say something to someone so dense.
And I'm not sure if it is intentional or not, in all honesty. It almost seems as though he truly believes his arguments and just doesn't grasp teh concept.
Anyway, I shouldn't be so mean and outright accusatory on the boards, so I'll stop now. I'll just have to bite my fingers off when I start to respond 
Hmm, it is dense of me to point out that there is still not a single argument in this entire thread that really points out how this change will actually be fun?
And you'll note, I never called anyone any names. I'm trying remain respectful and polite. If you feel that there are strong arguments for the "fun" of these proposed systems, by all means direct me to them.
StGabe.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 04-01-2004 10:49 AM
Hmm, since I'm so "dense", which post was it exactly that provided an argument for why the proposed contraband systems are fun, for me, a non-smuggler?\
StGabe.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 04-01-2004 10:53 AM
StGabriel wrote:
And you'll note, I never called anyone any names. I'm trying remain respectful and polite. If you feel that there are strong arguments for the "fun" of these proposed systems, by all means direct me to them.
Recently I lost my patience in these forums (a couple of times actually) and I wanted to take a moment to apologize if I have offended anyone or said something out of line. I know these times are quite important to us with our Revamp coming soon, and losing my "cool" will definitely not help matters at all.
To St. Gabe, I disagree with you so profoundly that I cannot even begin to describe it, and I truly feel you just cannot comprehend what is being said to you. However I should definitely have not resorted to voicing my opinion in such a "politically incorrect" manner (after all, a personal attack does nothing but make someone look immature, and although my patience is almost exhausted I should have just stepped away and not responded).
To Dilune, I definitely vented some of my frustration toward you, and for that I also apologize. However I feel that there is one fatal flaw in your argument, and that is the fact that we should not have to seel an idea to the Playerbase, only to the Developers. It is the responsibility of SOE to develop and provide solid reasons for what they choose to purse, not the player. However, I should have been a little more "tactful."
To my fellow Smugglers (most importantly of course), I apologize. Let us now continue the fight for what we believe in, and I will be certain to maintain my composure, even if it means I have to just ignore a post.
Regards,
Before heading out to the Rebel base in Dantooine to do some mission for the themepark, I really would have liked to get some buffs to help handle those nasty Stormtroopers. Hmm, no Doctors around. I could travel all the way back to Corellia to get buffed. Would that take a lot of time? Yes. Did I go back to Corellia? No. Continue on...
Out in the boonies of Dantooine, doing those missions from the Rebel themepark, I accumulated a large number of wounds and battle fatigue before I finished them. Now, there is nothing anywhere near this abandoned base, so no doctors or entertainers. I could have taken a lot of time and ran far and wide seeking such, but that would take time, so I made the choice to fight on. Was I as effective? No? Would I have liked to have had myself healed so I would be more effective? Yes. Would it have taken time? Yes. Did I choose to take the time? No. Did I succeed? Yes. Choices for buffs and healing made and dealt with.
In the Dantooine Mining Outpost, ready to do some regular missions to work on TKA skills. There's a doctor here. Hmmm. Long line. Should I wait? Takes time. Since I wanted to fight without armor this round (my Ubese Jacket was just about busted up and I wanted to try and repair it before using it again), I decided to wait. About 15-20 minutes later, I got my buffs and continued on. Was the wait fun? No. Did I deal? Yes. I made the choice to get the buffs, so again, choice made and dealt with.
That's all we're saying. The choice would be there to use/not use the illegal services/products, you have to decide if it's worth the time to you. It may or may not be at the time, but would be next time. Another player makes the same decisions for him/herself in the situations he/she is in.
That's it.
StGabriel wrote:
St.Gabe's resistance to the notion of contraband ("But I NEED my contraband!") is almost a direct parallel to the PvP damage reduction. Plenty of folks complained that it took THEM longer to kill people now, but no one stopped to consider -- "Hey, wait a minute...it takes EVERYONE longer to kill each other now, so the only thing that's changed is the length of the fight, not the power between the two parties."
You couldn't have read me more poorly. Nothing in my writing indicates that I am concerned about the relative power of my characters as actually this is the least of my concerns. In general I think that greater challenges is great, as long as the challenges stress FUN things and provide FUN opportunities for players.
However no one has provided a semblance of a good argument here for why the proposed changes are, actually, fun for me, the end player.
I see throughout this thread, comments that seem to seek to shift my discussion and to portray as that which I am not. In so much as you would portray me here as a simple fellow simply concerned about those things which are near and dear to me ("oh, deary me, please don't take away my sliced power hammer") you are dead wrong. Heck, if I could wave a magic wand and wipe all armor and weapon slicing out of the game, I might well do it as I think that slicing greatly exascerbates some existing problems in the combat game. Unfortunately that would mean a gaping hole in Smugglers content, which would need to be filled, one way or another. Either way, the LAST thing that I would be concerned about is how this affected my characters. I have confidence that I am a good player and I will continue to be a good player no matter what system is thrown at me. No need to paint me as some two-bit, shallow-minded fellow who can't see past a little nerf. Heck, I'm not afraid of a bit of nerf. I'll just look to see that the health of the game as a fun experience for its players is maintained. A nerf or any change that doesn't make a better game, isn't doing anything worthwhile. And a game is all about having fun.
StGabe.
Gabe,
As to your point about nothing indicating that that you have any concerns about the relative power of your characters, do I REALLY have to whip out a direct quote of yours on the subject of "I have to remain competitive in PvP"?
Now, onto the real meat of the issue, rather than quibbling over whether we've interpreted you correctly.
Interpretations of specific points aside, I think it's prettyclear your definition of "fun" and our definition of "fun" don't jive. If someone just plain hates jazz, you can sit them down and have them listen to all the greats, from Scott Joplin all the way up to Wynton Marsalles (sp?), but if at the end they say "You still haven't given me any reason to like jazz" well, fine. I guess you don't like jazz. We've outlined plenty of ways that we think would make this system "fun" and introduce risk at the same time. You reject them all. Okely dokely doo, but I think the issue here is how we all define fun. If, at this point in the debate, you still aren't convinced, well, fine. Duly noted. One voice in opposition to the change. We hear you, loud and clear. The problems are not with our arguments, but with our premises. We premise our arguments on a certain definition and concept of "fun" that just doesn't match up with yours. Such is life, and we really don't have to convince YOU how this would be fun. We have to convince one group and one group only: the devs. If we convince the devs that our system hews closely to the goals of this game, and that, even though some folks may vocally oppose it, on the whole it should jive with THEIR concept of "fun", then our changes will go live. If we can't convince them that our definition and their definition matches up, then the argument is over and it's time to find another game to play. For me, the current game is not fun. In fact, I uninstalled it today. I hadn't played it in about three or four weeks, and it was just taking up space. It just isn't fun to me in its current form.
The real battle here is what people define as "fun". If the devs agree with you on the definition of "fun" then you'll likely enjoy the game because it will be designed to accomodate your views. If the devs agree withour definition of "fun" then they'll design it our way. Only time will tell how this issue will be decided. But at this point, I don't think this debate can go any further. We think that whether you call the changes here a nerf or not, they would be better for the game as a whole. You disagree. We've outlined just about every possible permutation on the issue, and you still disagree. Look man, if you don't like jazz, you don't like jazz. And that's all there is to it. But there's really no point in going over the same ground again and again on this. I really do think this just comes down to differences in tastes with respect to what is "fun" and what is not. You have your views, we have ours. The devs will decide how the game gets played in the end.
So, on that note, I'm going to encourage folks to drop this issue cold and just "Move along, move along." There is nothing to be gained by further debate, as there is simply no way to reconcile a fundamental difference of opinion on the rather nebulous and personal concept of "fun".
Now, as for cool japanimation, I recommend the following:
1.) If you like Robotech, you'll LOVE the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross in Japanese. Animeigo puts out a great DVD set (and the only one legally available commercially in the U.S.) of this, though it's pretty pricey ($250.00, I believe). Robotech's three chapters were actually three separate and totally unrelated TV series in Japan, consisting of Super Dimension Fortress Macross, something like Space Cavalry Southern Cross (I think -- can't remember at the moment since that was my least favorite section of the story), and Genesis Climber Mospeada. All three have been released in their original Japanese versions on DVD now. I haven't seen Genesis Climber Mospeada, but I've heard it's not bad.
2.) Star Blazers is cool, but Space Battleship Yamato is AWESOME. If you're a fan of anime/japanimation, look to this for where it all really began in terms of the epic tales you see nowadays.
3.) Dragonball never did a thing for me. I'm more of a mecha guy.
4.) The original Gundam series is supposed to be excellent. I've seen the japanese language versions of the films and they're quite good (though the sound quality is a little poor on some DVD versions of it). Also be sure to check out Z Gundam. There are some other Gundam series that are cool, but those two are widely regarded as the best of 'em.
5.) Thundercats is cool and all, but could be kind of corny. If you liked the show, and have not yet heard them, GO DOWNLOAD THE OUTTAKE WAV FILES!! You will pee yourself laughing.
6.) G.I. Joe and Transformers were cool, but could also frustrate me whenI was a kid. Why could no one shoot straight enough to KILL anyone? What's the point of having huge robots with laser guns if whenever they hit you, you just fall over and say "I'm ok!"? And if a G.I. Joe guy picks up a Cobra guy's gun, do the color of the bullets change? These are the great mysteries of life....
Solo4114 wrote:
5.) Thundercats is cool and all, but could be kind of corny. If you liked the show, and have not yet heard them, GO DOWNLOAD THE OUTTAKE WAV FILES!! You will pee yourself laughing.
I didn't quite do that, but yes, these are so hilarious... I keep them around at all times, they always make my day just a little bit brighter...
"Thunder...THUNder... THUNDERCA.....I'm going too high!"
"And keep your foot off that blasted samo-flange." "What the f* is a samo-flange?"
andmore!
but to get this post a little back on topic, it's definatly a differant perception on fun. The thing is, if Gabes method becomes the standard, we will never live up to it. If ours gets worked they way it should, he can still do everything he did before.
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse! 
Solo4114 wrote:So, on that note, I'm going to encourage folks to drop this issue cold and just "Move along, move along." There is nothing to be gained by further debate, as there is simply no way to reconcile a fundamental difference of opinion on the rather nebulous and personal concept of "fun".
I agree Solo, I've said it before and that's why I wasn't going to post on this thread any more. However, I was compelled to point out that there are a number of "un-fun" (in quotes because I wouldn't have used that term if Gabe hadn't to describe the same kinds of things) things prevalent in SWG that we all deal with to give each profession a purpose. A purpose we Smugglers currently do not have and are simply trying to get for ourselves.
An interesting note. These other "un-fun" things haven't been the subject of long threads discussing their "un-fun-ness" before. Why? Because they have always been there and so are expected. Giving Smugglers a purpose by adding some such "un-fun" thing receives this sort of attention because it would be a new addition to the game. If it had been implemented originally in the game, no such attention would have been forthcoming.
Change is good. For everyone. It makes an exciting, dynamic, and more immersive environment in which to interact.
Sorry for adding to the thread yet again. I'll try to restrain myself in the future.
