Smuggler Archive
Thread: Depending On Smugglers
Maximum_Overload wrote:
There's a lot truth there. Pretty much covers my issues with almost every Smuggler Content idea that EN hasn't set on fire and/or called a mini-game.
Vampirerobot wrote:
The lesson is guys: If Players are constantly reminded of their being forced to employ Smugglers, they're going to resent it. If it's just a step in the crafting process, the crafters might resent it, but they'll learn to live with it and it might even be fun for them. But the day you force ELITEDOOD the Rifleman/TKA to hand over his T21 and Vibroknuckler to some scummy Smuggler every time he takes a shuttle, well you're asking for trouble. And all the justifications in the world about "they don't HAVE to use that weapon blah blah blah" aren't going to change the reality that the Devs will never make that change if that's the result.
I'd love for you to find something that we can offer the game an advantage deal on something that currently exists, as opposed to asking for them all to be nerfed, so we can offer to sell them a NerfLite option by using our skills.
I can't tell if I'm supposed to be the bad cop in that formulation, but hey...
Concerning the initial example, I don't think ELITEDOOD would scream for very long. What I think is that if there were an advantage to be found in it,ELITEDOOD would invest in Underworld so that s/he could move contraband anytime s/he felt like it. People adjust to situations they don't like. And once they've adjusted, they shut up about it, because they have an advantage over people who haven't learned to adjust. Other people simply give up their Graul/Probot/etc and move on with their game. Some people would undoubtedly stop using sliced gear, but so be it - the Imperial Crackdown already encouraged that.
As for the situation and what we can expect, consider this:
We got invited to a dinner party. The car sent to pick us up broke down, however, and we arrived late. Everybody else arrived a long time ago and has been at the table for a whiole now. The dinner table is only so big. Most people feel pretty comfortable already and like their spots. But we were invited, too, and we werepromised a seat. And nobody is moving a little bit to give us a spot. So at this point, we have to grab a new chair and push our way onto it. People will be uncomfortable at first. But once we have a seat, people get settled again. Additionally, we bring some interesting conversation to the table, and some tasty dessert. In the end, peoplepay attention to the conversation and the dessert, and forget about everything that ahppened before wesat down. Even though people had to move a bit and adjust to having us at the table, the experience is enriched for everyone, and they get something nice to munch on.
That's the parallel I see for Smugglers and SWG. I expect nothing less than moaning at the outset from a lot of players. But I expect that it will dissipate as the sensibility of the changes sink in for most people, and as they adjust to the new way that SWG is played. Probots got nerfed and people stopped complaining. Grauls got nerfed and people stopped complaining. ATST got nerfed and people mostly stopped complaining. PVP damage got reduced 75% and people stopped complaining. In all cases, I think those were necessary changes that helped the game. And I think that creating a tough system of contraband and tariffs would add a level of depth and challenge to the game that's missing at the moment. People would come to accept and enjoy it, assuming the system is anything like what I expect and aspire to implement.
I'd be shelling out around 20k per planet hop, above the price of a ticket (based on the most recent numbers I read from you). That's the kind of thing that makes for open hostility.
electricnomad wrote:
Maximum_Overload wrote:
There's a lot truth there. Pretty much covers my issues with almost every Smuggler Content idea that EN hasn't set on fire and/or called a mini-game.
Vampirerobot wrote:
The lesson is guys: If Players are constantly reminded of their being forced to employ Smugglers, they're going to resent it. If it's just a step in the crafting process, the crafters might resent it, but they'll learn to live with it and it might even be fun for them. But the day you force ELITEDOOD the Rifleman/TKA to hand over his T21 and Vibroknuckler to some scummy Smuggler every time he takes a shuttle, well you're asking for trouble. And all the justifications in the world about "they don't HAVE to use that weapon blah blah blah" aren't going to change the reality that the Devs will never make that change if that's the result.
I'd love for you to find something that we can offer the game an advantage deal on something that currently exists, as opposed to asking for them all to be nerfed, so we can offer to sell them a NerfLite option by using our skills.
I can't tell if I'm supposed to be the bad cop in that formulation, but hey...
Concerning the initial example, I don't think ELITEDOOD would scream for very long. What I think is that if there were an advantage to be found in it,ELITEDOOD would invest in Underworld so that s/he could move contraband anytime s/he felt like it. People adjust to situations they don't like. And once they've adjusted, they shut up about it, because they have an advantage over people who haven't learned to adjust. Other people simply give up their Graul/Probot/etc and move on with their game. Some people would undoubtedly stop using sliced gear, but so be it - the Imperial Crackdown already encouraged that.
As for the situation and what we can expect, consider this:
We got invited to a dinner party. The car sent to pick us up broke down, however, and we arrived late. Everybody else arrived a long time ago and has been at the table for a whiole now. The dinner table is only so big. Most people feel pretty comfortable already and like their spots. But we were invited, too, and we werepromised a seat. And nobody is moving a little bit to give us a spot. So at this point, we have to grab a new chair and push our way onto it. People will be uncomfortable at first. But once we have a seat, people get settled again. Additionally, we bring some interesting conversation to the table, and some tasty dessert. In the end, peoplepay attention to the conversation and the dessert, and forget about everything that ahppened before wesat down. Even though people had to move a bit and adjust to having us at the table, the experience is enriched for everyone, and they get something nice to munch on.
That's the parallel I see for Smugglers and SWG. I expect nothing less than moaning at the outset from a lot of players. But I expect that it will dissipate as the sensibility of the changes sink in for most people, and as they adjust to the new way that SWG is played. Probots got nerfed and people stopped complaining. Grauls got nerfed and people stopped complaining. ATST got nerfed and people mostly stopped complaining. PVP damage got reduced 75% and people stopped complaining. In all cases, I think those were necessary changes that helped the game. And I think that creating a tough system of contraband and tariffs would add a level of depth and challenge to the game that's missing at the moment. People would come to accept and enjoy it, assuming the system is anything like what I expect and aspire to implement.
Prime examples of why the devs need to be willing to take a hard line from time to time even when people say "Oooooh, but it NERFs me!! NO FAIR!" Each time one of these things has actually made it through, people pissed and moaned and then adjusted and grew to accept (and even enjoy) it.
St.Gabe's resistance to the notion of contraband ("But I NEED my contraband!") is almost a direct parallel to the PvP damage reduction. Plenty of folks complained that it took THEM longer to kill people now, but no one stopped to consider -- "Hey, wait a minute...it takes EVERYONE longer to kill each other now, so the only thing that's changed is the length of the fight, not the power between the two parties." Eventually, folks readjusted and got used to it. I REALLY hope the devs recognize that this can happen and therefore give us what we want. However, even with these precedents for taking a hard line, the devs have equally set precedent for buckling like belts when the playerbase whines "But this isn't FUN for me." Never mind that "fun" for the whiner would be having a super-powered-mega-mega-king-kamehameha-AT-AT-destructo-lightsaber-shooting-rifle that can kill anything a million jillion times over, so there.
Solo4114 wrote:
*snip*
Never mind that "fun" for the whiner would be having a super-powered-mega-mega-king-kamehameha-AT-AT-destructo-lightsaber-shooting-rifle that can kill anything a million jillion times over, so there.
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse! Ya I remembered that right after I hit the submit post button. But I have still sliced alot of regular non-vibro swords.
SirVimes wrote:
(Quick side note) Actually...yeah, he can. A lot of blade weapons in the star wars universe are vibro weapons...that means that the edges of the blades vibrate slightly, kinda like an electric knife for turkeys....or a very light, quiet chain saw.
Yes, I am a geek.
Message Edited by Jandel-Har on 04-01-2004 06:59 AM
Excuse me, Caylin, but I must differ. The "golden age of cartoons"? "Children of the early '80's"?
I have to speak up and represent for my people! Late 1970's!
Superfriends vs the Legion of Doom, kid! WhaaT!?
The "Herculoids" !
Spider-Man ! (way before his "amazing friends")
"Space muf&$%in' Ghost" !!!
"Fantastic Four in tha house" !
And last but not least..."Schoolhouse Rock" !
And the ace of spades? You got it! "Star Wars" Original screening baby! In the theatre!
(and I was watchin' DB in Japan waayyy before America got hip. If you want classic Japanimation check out "Starblazers" from the late '70's. Known in Japan as "Spacecruiser Yamato").
Sorry fellas, but I get this way when I'm....
...t-t-talkin' bout mah g-g-g-gen-er-a-tion....!
Smug-Druggler wrote:
__________________________
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
Ahhh the memories of importing tapes...and smuggling them past our parents who dissaproved of the practice. Children of the early 80's... the golden age of cartoons, with cartoonssuch as Dragonball,He-Man and Thundercats.
Those were good days...*sniff*... good days...
__________________________
Excuse me, Caylin, but I must differ. The "golden age of cartoons"? "Children of the early '80's"?
I have to speak up and represent for my people! Late 1970's!
Superfriends vs the Legion of Doom, kid! WhaaT!?
The "Herculoids" !
Spider-Man ! (way before his "amazing friends")
"Space muf&$%in' Ghost" !!!
"Fantastic Four in tha house" !
And last but not least..."Schoolhouse Rock" !
And the ace of spades? You got it! "Star Wars" Original screening baby! In the theatre!
(and I was watchin' DB in Japan waayyy before America got hip. If you want classic Japanimation check out "Starblazers" from the late '70's. Known in Japan as "Spacecruiser Yamato").
Sorry fellas, but I get this way when I'm....
...t-t-talkin' bout mah g-g-g-gen-er-a-tion....!
Pfff Transformers own3d all!
Though I will admit Space Ghost was pretty freaking great.
And why do you think I had to import anime? It wasn't cool here then! Darn good thing I have asian friends who were able to help me understand them.
Ya' I have to admit that the whole Robotech trilogy saga from '85-'86 set a new standard for storytelling in that form.
And sorry for warping waaayyy off topic, everybody. But speakin' of childhood....
CAYLIN STARTED IT ! 
2 points:
First, making Contraband less used only hurts us, the Smugglers that exist to truck it about and deliver it to the paying public. So I don't see any advantage for us (apart from being the only ones to use it, and that's not Smuggling in the slightest) in making Contraband so distasteful that people would rather not own it than have us help them acquire/use it. The point is NOT that anyone who wants to use Contraband should get Underworld skills themselves. The point is to get employed by those people.
Second, anything that forces the lowest common denominator player, that is the player who uses the end product like a Blaster Pistol, is going to be frustrated by a system that doesn't let them move around with relative freedom and carry the gear they want to carry. They'll be willing to pay a higher price for it till they are blue in the face, but the moment you make them wait two extra seconds, or jump through one extra hoop, forget it, they'll mob you. That's why the only thing that's going to fly with the playerbase is extra costs and steps in the crafting process, that translate to a higher price on certain high end weapons.
If you think people are going to just get used to needing to find a Smuggler every time they want to walk into a city, or else stop using a common as dirt weapon like a sliced FWG5, you're crazy. Maybe that'd work with something rare and extremely powerful, but Slicing is not good enough to be worth the extra time every time you do something as simple as walk around or travel. It's got to hit them somewhere WAY less noticeable than that. That's how a Smuggler would do it anyway: nice and subtle.
I just skimmed through a few more responses and I didn't see it but if it was already stated then disregard.
StGabriel, you are a swordsman right? we shouldn't even be able to slice weapons that don't have any kind of electronics or moving parts. Just how are we supposed to slice a sword with a few electronic tools?
You couldn't have read me more poorly. Nothing in my writing indicates that I am concerned about the relative power of my characters as actually this is the least of my concerns. In general I think that greater challenges is great, as long as the challenges stress FUN things and provide FUN opportunities for players.
However no one has provided a semblance of a good argument here for why the proposed changes are, actually, fun for me, the end player.
I see throughout this thread, comments that seem to seek to shift my discussion and to portray as that which I am not. In so much as you would portray me here as a simple fellow simply concerned about those things which are near and dear to me ("oh, deary me, please don't take away my sliced power hammer") you are dead wrong. Heck, if I could wave a magic wand and wipe all armor and weapon slicing out of the game, I might well do it as I think that slicing greatly exascerbates some existing problems in the combat game. Unfortunately that would mean a gaping hole in Smugglers content, which would need to be filled, one way or another. Either way, the LAST thing that I would be concerned about is how this affected my characters. I have confidence that I am a good player and I will continue to be a good player no matter what system is thrown at me. No need to paint me as some two-bit, shallow-minded fellow who can't see past a little nerf. Heck, I'm not afraid of a bit of nerf. I'll just look to see that the health of the game as a fun experience for its players is maintained. A nerf or any change that doesn't make a better game, isn't doing anything worthwhile. And a game is all about having fun.
StGabe.
StGabriel wrote:
However no one has provided a semblance of a good argument here for why the proposed changes are, actually, fun for me, the end player. A nerf or any change that doesn't make a better game, isn't doing anything worthwhile. And a game is all about having fun.
I'll go you one better Gabe, as a smuggler, I don't feel any of these changes would be fun. I mean, do I need to be bombarded with tells from people who want me to hold their loot and ride to X (via Shuttle or crossing the magic Contraband scan lines around the cities?).
Remember, currently flying the smuggler runs from Correlia to Dathomir (Gotta use the good gear for Rancor hunts) consists of sitting around waiting for a shuttle, then clicking on a droid, then watching a loading screen.
Makes me feel more like Han just thinkin' about it.
What about G-Force(I believe that was the name) I've been watchin cartoon from about , what 3 or 4 years old till ,well yesterday, and I have watched everyone you named off there Smug.I still catch them every once in a while on the cartoon network.Exept the Japanese stuff, there is very little I like of that.
Smug-Druggler wrote:
Excuse me, Caylin, but I must differ. The "golden age of cartoons"? "Children of the early '80's"?
I have to speak up and represent for my people! Late 1970's!
Superfriends vs the Legion of Doom, kid! WhaaT!?
The "Herculoids" !
Spider-Man ! (way before his "amazing friends")
"Space muf&$%in' Ghost" !!!
"Fantastic Four in tha house" !
And last but not least..."Schoolhouse Rock" !
And the ace of spades? You got it! "Star Wars" Original screening baby! In the theatre!
(and I was watchin' DB in Japan waayyy before America got hip. If you want classic Japanimation check out "Starblazers" from the late '70's. Known in Japan as "Spacecruiser Yamato").
Sorry fellas, but I get this way when I'm....
...t-t-talkin' bout mah g-g-g-gen-er-a-tion....!
Message Edited by Jandel-Har on 04-01-2004 07:01 AM