CUEmu - Thread Posts

Bohdi-Tzu

Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:49 am

Vampirerobot wrote:
I'd like to see us as a profession that other players seek out in order to get their hands on the illegal stuff, the contraband...
While Inconvenience avoiding services are part of the game, I don't think we need to add another one (and thereby create another inconvenience). The rest of the players would likely resist that. But I don't think they can justly complain if we simply made our own products and services more our own.

And from StGabes original post:

Contraband. If I have to find a smuggler simply to move around with the items I have then that is too much of a time investment. However if a smuggler can provide illicit goods that I need I will gladly pay for them. Instead of seeking systems that actively hamper a player at all points I suggest systems that allow smugglers to provide perks to other professions but use the Smuggler's time. You spend your time being a smuggler and I'll spend mine being a swordsman, and after all of that I will gladly fork over some of my profits for some of your ill-gotten gains.

I posted in this thread on Friday, and this is the point I feel is most important here:
Smuggler revamp suggestions should be directed towards acquiring contraband (providing benefits) for other players as opposed to concealing contraband (avoiding penalties) for other players.

Needing to find an entertainer in a cantina is an inconvenience. I don't want more things in the game like that, and I for sure don't want to be that. I want players to seek me out because I can get them something they can't get, something that they want.

Sun-Tzu Jedi Knight
"I sense a plot to destroy the jedi..."

Solo4114

Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:05 am

#275

That's pretty close to what I'd envision, EN. The only things I'd change are:

Also add in certain location-specific resources as taxed on specific planets. IE: the Empire taxes the stuff you mentioned, the Corellians also tax Tatooinian Leathery Hide (or whatever), and that it'd be the local regulations that change over time and require cantina research or listening to rumors.

The only other thing I'd caution against is making the profession a masters-only club (like so many of the other service professions). Folks at lower levels need to be able to offer services that keep them in business and make them no worse off than a master. A good example of this is, surprisingly, container opening. Anyone can open a container when they hit smuggler. you don't have to be a master to do it, so there's no point in looking for a master. If containers had useful stuff in them and dropped, oh, once every blue moon instead of once every time Haley's Comet passes, this would be a great system. Novices and mid-levelers would have services that they could offer on the marketplace and which would gain them experience. The last thing we need is ANOTHER grind-happy profession where EVERYONE ends up being a master.

That's not to say masters shouldn't get exclusive abilities, but I do worry about them getting both MORE abilities AND being able to do it better than everyone else. That stacks the deck too much in their favor, I'd say, and runs the novices and mid-levlers out of the marketplace.

How about this as an option:

- The percentage of resources that you lose for failing to smuggle them is constant and capped at a certain number (which would necessarily be lower than what the average population can move). Let's say that the population at large loses between 25 and 35% of their taxed resources for failing to smuggle AND have to pay the regular tax rate. You'd also lose a certain amount of standing with the local cops (let's say, 100FP for each failed smuggling job for TAXED items -- contraband is a different story which would be closer to 400FP)

- As a smuggler, however, upon obtaining Novice, you instantly drop that range down to 7-17% lost resources, and you gain the ability to bribe and thereby minimize your damages. Instead of paying the taxed rate, smugglers have the option of: (a) paying the taxed rate as normal and taking the normal faction hit, (b)paying a reduced flat-rate fine (let's say it's 6000c per failed job) and taking a larger faction hit (say, from 100 up to 200FP), or (c)taking NO faction hit but paying the tax AND the flat rate (useful if the smuggler's already in hot water with the local cops). And there'd always be option (d) available to everyone -- shoot your way out and hope you can escape with your life. This, of course, DRASTICALLY drops your faction rating with the locals and brings you one step closer to the BH terminals.

- As smugglers climbed the profession, the actual amount of resources lost would remain at 7-17%. The benefit to being a master would be in terms of the impact on the SMUGGLER, NOT on the client. The client gets the same service regardless. The SMUGGLER however gets a reduced likelihood of being caught, AND gets reductions to their penalties as they go along. For example, the 6000c flat-rate fine would gradually drop down to, say 1000-1500 or so. The faction point hit would drop down from 200FP to 110FP or so. The benefits would all be smuggler-side, not client-side. I'd also let masters be less likely to get caught, but only up to, say, a 65-70% chance of being able to slip by, MAXIMUM. Thus, even as a master, there'd always be a 30-35% chance that you'd get caught. Hey, we want some risk in this game, right? Maybe to boost those chances, novice smugglers (and novices ONLY) could make certain avoidance or masking devices with different properties. These items would not be available to be MADE by a master smuggler or upper-level smuggler, but could still be USED by them. Thus, there'd be professional inter-dependency.

- Also, note that this interdependency would not be FORCED on players. You could still smuggle pretty darn well as a master. A 30% chance of getting caught, as opposed to a 90% chance (that normal players would have) is pretty damn good and makes you MUCH better than everyone else at avoiding trouble. These devices would just bump your risk reduction up to, say, a maximum of 80% chance of success. So, again, you wouldn't HAVE to use them, but it'd be in your interest to do so.

- We could even have the risk reducing devices work like this:

- Novices could make a "signal masker" which would provide a full 15% boost to your avoidance ability, but have a limited lifespan of 10 uses. You could have it require, say, 150 copper.

-First-tier smugglers could make a "charge deflector" which would provide an 12% boost, but give you 12 uses. This could require, maybe 125 copper.

- Second-tier smugglers could make a "signal masker Mk II" which would give you a 10% boost, but give you 15 uses. This would require 100 copper.

- Third-tier smugglers could make a "Thingamajiggy" (do the names really matter right now?) which gives an 8% boost, but 18 uses. It'd cost 75 copper to make.

- Fourth-tier smugglers could make a "Doohickey" which gives you only a 5% boost, but lets you get a full 25 uses out of it. Only 50 copper for this puppy.

Master smugglers wouldn't be able to make any of these items. Also note that the effects of these items would NOT be cumulative. No stacking deflectors with maskers and doohickeys to get a 110% success rate. Also note that as you progressed up the levels, you'd LOSE access to the previous schematics. So a novice could make their masker, but upon obtaining the required 2nd tier skill, would lose the ability to make one and could only make the deflector. This would create real interdependence and give the NOVICES and lower-tier players an angle on which to market their abilities that no one else could horn in on. Upper levels could do the same job, but it'd be in their interest to go to the lesser experienced guys.

As for the logic underlying why guys at lower levels can do this stuff better, think of it this way. As you climb the trees, it's your NATURAL abilities that you rely on. Your instincts. Your experience. Your ability to gauge a situation and know how to exploit it. Those are what get you through the checkpoint, not fancy gadgetry. But when you're young an inexperienced, you HAVE to rely on that stuff. If you're a Novice smuggler who has only the instincts to beat scans, say, 30% of the time, an extra 10% is a huge bonus for you, so using a device that gives you that edge is a big help and almost a necessity. As you increase your skills, however, you need to rely on such devices less and less, which would be reflected by the schematic loss of the higher percentage devices as you climb the trees. You'd still get certifications to use the items in question (which no non-smuggler could use), but you'd also have

The varying resource costs, effectiveness ratings, and number of charges would simply be balancing factors. Tradeoffs for the higher-ps in terms of their purchasing decisions. Do I want something that'll give me more charges, or do I want something that'll give me a better percentage? It'd be up to you, but the resource costs would ideally reflect end costs (IE: the highest percent items would cost the most), so there'd be a reason to maybe use something with more charges but a lower percent effectiveness.

Alternatively, instead of a blanket effectiveness, you could have the odd-numbered tiers and novice be given % enhancers and the even numbered tiers be given numerical enhancers. IE: at tiers 2 and 4, you could use an item which would guarantee a single stack of items up to1000 units (IE: a1000 unit resource stack) could be moved undetected, and you'd have 5 charges for the item. At tier 4, you'd be able to increase this to a single stack at500 units but for 15 charges. These items could be used in addition to the percent enhancers. So, for certain IMPORTANT items where you don't want ANY of it confiscated, you could completely mask them from scanning, but would be limited in terms of the raw number of units. AND this would ONLY work for taxed goods -- not contraband.

Anyway, I think some system like this is necessary or else we'll end up like weaponsmiths -- forever grinding just to make master and FINALLY start participating in the marketplace. We don't need a binary-state profession where you either are or are not a master. We need a well developed, robust profession with intra-dependency WITHIN the profession, albeit not FORCED intra-dependency. You know. Like, back to the ORIGINAL idea of this game?

One other thing. If CHs have taught us anything it's that the class's marquee ability should NOT be concentrated in a single tree.I don't think JUST climbing the Underworld tree should get you all of the core smuggling abilities. I'd say we should spread and scatter those among all four trees. Maybe you get your better bribery skills in one tree, but your better movement skills in another and your hiding devices in another, but not in a straight-line progression. Scattered. This would permit some dabbling, but not permit players to master one or two lines and get the real benefits of the entire profession.

Message Edited by Solo4114 on 03-31-2004 06:44 AM

Raanan

Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:54 am

#276

Wow, the ideas on tariffs and what not, are incredibly cool. I especially like your idea on detection bypassing items, Solo. The idea of a master not having the ability a novice had wasn't jiving with me on the grounds of "what? did the master suddenly forget or something?" but your explanation alleviated that thoght beautifully I love the reason of, "I don't need it so I can't be bothered with it" idea.

However, this is all great for the smuggling part of our profession but (and I'm not sure how many people would agree with me) I don't see the smuggler profession in SWG as purely a smuggling profession. Using the example of Al, Bill, and Charlie I think it was, as it pertains to SWG our profession should be all 3. It almost is already. We just need the smuggling portion to be implemented. Though our profession name is Smuggler, we essentially are the crime lords of the game. Just look at our current skill tree.

We've got spices which are essentially the illegal drugs of the Star Wars universe. We make and we sell though anybody can actually sell it. I don't believe medics or doctors should craft the spices for the reasoning of their drugs are legal. You don't often hear of Medical Doctors or Physicians Assitants being arrested for growing cocoa plants and processing it into coke, ea? Their specialization is in the legal drugs while ours is the illegal.

We've got slicing.Using the analogy already written, we make a person's semi-autoAR-15fully auto and to expand on it, we make that person's kevlar vest more resistant to armor piercing rounds. It's nice and illegal (in concept anyway)and I like it alot.However, this definitely needs a little work to fit into any aspect of smuggling. The idea of being contacted by people to cart their single sliced weapon through a checkpoint annoys me to be frank. I'm a master... give me bulk items to smuggle. Leave the small orders for novices. Really, I haven't been able to think of a good way past that yet so I'm leaning more and more toward sliced equipment being able to be used only by smugglers. With the tariff and contraband system outlined, it wouldn't be a problem either.

We've got dirty fighting. This could be lumped with slicing (I do NOT mean combining the skill trees). Our combat skills which, though powerful (at least 2 anyway), without skill mods are a last ditch, to use the name of our best special. I don't believe they are meant to be used first. Who thinks of a smuggler as primarily a combatant after all? They're more of an "Oh God, I've got to fight!" ability

Finally, we've got underworld. Frankly, I have no idea why this uses pistol xp other than the devs were pressed for some way to get us these skill boxes before the game was released. I read a post a while ago which outlined a smuggling xp. That would be a better way to get us these skill boxes. Anyway, not much to say about this skill tree since there isn't much here...

My point with all of this is, we're already half way to encompassing all three elements in the drug trafficing scenario so why not leave the current content we have in instead of making us purely smugglers? It would give us alot of content more related to smuggling. Do medics need more itmes to craft especially items which have nothing to do with being a medic? What about slicing? That doesn't have anything directly to do with smuggling either. Should we give that ability to weaponsmiths and armorsmiths for their respective gear? Hopefully you say no. Instead of delegating us to purely smuggling, modify our current skill set and relating game systems to give us the ability to smuggle.

*******************************************************
Explorer 80% - Socializer 53% - Killer 40% - Achiever 26%
Player type

Raanan Soulfire - Bloodfin MSmuggler/MCommando
Breytei E'kre - Starsider Commando/Bounty Hunter

Solo4114

Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:12 am

#277

Oh,I agree that's where we ARE currently. We've got A and C. We just don't have B. But to me, the primary job of a smuggler has always been B. It's just that guys who do A or C often do B as well as a way to eliminate the middle-man. I'd rather open up the A and C abilities to other players and just do B, personally.

I also worry about trying to take on too much at once. Our current profesion is a disjointed mess. We're just the generic criminals of the galaxy (or at least as criminal as you can be in the game -- which isn't criminal at all really). I want us to be smugglers first and criminals second. If you WANT to do A and C, knock yourself out, but I think our professional abilities should primarily be focused on B. Thus, our skill trees should be focused on B and skills designed to make doing B easier. Towards that end, self-interested slicing (IE: slicing where you can't sell the service to other players) makes sense, as does Dirty Fighting (assuming it gets properly fixed). Spice, however, does not, unless we get spice resistance mods of some kind. Let the rest of the galaxy eat smugglers delight. We're smugglers. We don't NEED to eat it.

"The poison was in both goblets. I spent years developing an immunity to iocane powder."

Let other professions make spice. I don't think we need to do that. In fact, I'd even spread spice around a bit. Give some to the docs, some to medics, some to droid engineers, etc. After all, most of the spices are derived from stuff that other professions make at least according to their descriptions. Why not just let other players make them and we stay focused on moving them?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's cool if we can make them too, but it just doesn't jive with my focus for smuggling as PURELY the cargo-moving abilities. Right now, that's the biggest thing missing from the game and what we need the most. Assuming they can give us both, that's ok by me. But if I have to choose, my choice is smuggling first, everything else second.

Ryutek

Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:17 am

#278

Solo4114 wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I think it's cool if we can make them too, but it just doesn't jive with my focus for smuggling as PURELY the cargo-moving abilities. Right now, that's the biggest thing missing from the game and what we need the most. Assuming they can give us both, that's ok by me. But if I have to choose, my choice is smuggling first, everything else second.

I think this part best sums up my thoughts on the matter.

Personally, with all of the "problems" that seem to be revolving around having sliced gear be made contraband I would love to see anything sliced become non-tradeable. In all honesty, I would rather slicing be completely replaced with my idea of "Tinkering" that was proposed instead of having both, but that is a different topic.

Ryutek

Former Teräs Käsi Correspondent, Circa 08/2004 to 02/2005

No longer holding out hope, SWG will never be the game we fought so hard for, that we believed so much in. Farewell friends.

[email protected]

SirVimes

Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:23 am

#279

Ryutek wrote:

\

Personally, with all of the "problems" that seem to be revolving around having sliced gear be made contraband I would love to see anything sliced become non-tradeable.

Or...I think sliced items and spice should be tradable to smugglers only. This way, while others can use them smugglers are the only ones who can buy and sell them.

electricnomad

Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:34 am

#280

SirVimes wrote:

Ryutek wrote:

\

Personally, with all of the "problems" that seem to be revolving around having sliced gear be made contraband I would love to see anything sliced become non-tradeable.

Or...I think sliced items and spice should be tradable to smugglers only. This way, while others can use them smugglers are the only ones who can buy and sell them.

The sad part of that is that restricting contraband to Smugglers-only would confirm that the playerbase of SWG is not mature enough to accept risks and consequences for their actions. It would turn sliced items into a TKA Powerboost ability and remove CHOICE from players' hands.I think it's sad that people can't accept that something that benefits them also carries consequences, and that they'd push hard to eliminate the consequences part of the analysis. It's sad that the only way we can think of to distinguish the benefits of slicing is to simply remove players' ability to choose. We're basically admitting that the only way to do this is to take the toy away completely and level the playing field like that. It's another victory for the laziest element of the playerabse, and caters once again to the lowest common denominator.

So while a big part of me wants to say "Screw you, everybody else, us Smugglers are taking our toys and going home with them," a larger part of me thinks that making contraband Smuggler-only would kill yet another potentially interesting aspect of this game. Risk is slowly being whittled out of the SWG equation. And that's not good.

"We're dedicating a designer (Green Marine) next week to looking into fixing some of the bigger issues of the smuggler. (Yes, we are also looking at issues with the other professions, the smuggler just seems to be the one needing the most love at this moment)." Q-3PO - September 16, 2003
Great Threads in Smuggler History, Vol. I / Vol. II / Vol. III - Collected Posts by the Devs Concerning Smugglers
***ELECTRICNOMAD RETIRED FROM SWG ON 7 MAY 2004***

Raanan

Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:45 am

#281

My thought's above would give us the ability to smuggle with modifiers to that ability and room to add even more content while at the same time not limiting us to pure smuggling. Granted, that's the name of our profession but I don't view Han Solo or Lando as purely smugglers and I believe emulating them was the devs intention with the smuggler profession. As such, I think we need to keep as much of what we already have as we can while gaining the ability to smuggle like our name implies.

*******************************************************
Explorer 80% - Socializer 53% - Killer 40% - Achiever 26%
Player type

Raanan Soulfire - Bloodfin MSmuggler/MCommando
Breytei E'kre - Starsider Commando/Bounty Hunter

Vampirerobot

Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:12 am

#282

I do like the tariff idea. Though I even prefer the followup to it: Taxes on items native to a planet when you leave that planet with them. So all outgoing flights from Tatooine put a tax on all "Tatooinian" resources.

What I'm skeptical of is that it could ever be worthwhile for a resource harvester to employ a Smuggler to physically carry their resources for them off planet. However there are two things I can think of that would mitigate this:

1) Allowing Smugglers to simply group with the resource carrier during travel, acting as an 'escort'.

2) Smuggler Terminals, at all major starports, at which a Player can drop off a "package" to be delivered to another Smuggler Terminal at another starport elsewhere in the galaxy within a certain time span. Smugglers would then go to these terminals to pick up packages and carry them through customs to their destination, where the customer can pick them up. These would in essence be Player Missions. Failure to deliver could of course result in a Bounty. Ideally a failed mission (or rather,subsequent Bounty Hunter kill) would result in the package being returned to the starting point for pickup by another, more competent or ethical, Smuggler. So if, like Han Solo, you had to dump your cargo: Say hello to your new pal Boba. The other cool thing is if Player paid the mission rewards, they would basically be paying for speed of delivery, as the higher priced missions will be taken first.

As long as it is relatively simple for artisans and merchants to get their resources shipped around, and no final products need to be smuggled through customs on a regular basis, I think other players could live with it. They will just have to accept that 100k units of Tatooinian fungus aren't going to be allowed onto Corellia without paying the proper taxes (or the proper Smuggler). If it is basically a one time cost to get the materials to their factories, I think it won't be had to adjust to.

The lesson is guys: If Players are constantly reminded of their being forced to employ Smugglers, they're going to resent it. If it's just a step in the crafting process, the crafters might resent it, but they'll learn to live with it and it might even be fun for them. But the day you force ELITEDOOD the Rifleman/TKA to hand over his T21 and Vibroknuckler to some scummy Smuggler every time he takes a shuttle, well you're asking for trouble. And all the justifications in the world about "they don't HAVE to use that weapon blah blah blah" aren't going to change the reality that the Devs will never make that change if that's the result.

Kelsin Redgrave
Master Smuggler, Master Gunfighter
Starsider

JediKozel

Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:45 pm

#283

Jandel-Har wrote:
I just skimmed through a few more responses and I didn't see it but if it was already stated then disregard.
StGabriel, you are a swordsman right? we shouldn't even be able to slice weapons that don't have any kind of electronics or moving parts. Just how are we supposed to slice a sword with a few electronic tools?

LOL!
Man, I forgot all about it!
Nerf swordsmen!

Mokael Openg
Mayor by Day, Fixer by Night, Gunfighter by Need
"Face it, if crime did not pay, there would be very few criminals."
Laughton Lewis Burdock
(from Shadows of The Empire by S. Perry)

Maximum_Overload

Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:39 pm

#284

Vampirerobot wrote:
The lesson is guys: If Players are constantly reminded of their being forced to employ Smugglers, they're going to resent it. If it's just a step in the crafting process, the crafters might resent it, but they'll learn to live with it and it might even be fun for them. But the day you force ELITEDOOD the Rifleman/TKA to hand over his T21 and Vibroknuckler to some scummy Smuggler every time he takes a shuttle, well you're asking for trouble. And all the justifications in the world about "they don't HAVE to use that weapon blah blah blah" aren't going to change the reality that the Devs will never make that change if that's the result.

There's a lot truth there. Pretty much covers my issues with almost every Smuggler Content idea that EN hasn't set on fire and/or called a mini-game.

I'd love for you to find something that we can offer the game an advantage deal on something that currently exists, as opposed to asking for them all to be nerfed, so we can offer to sell them a NerfLite option by using our skills.

WTB: Rug In A TrashCan

SirVimes

Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:47 pm

#285

Jandel-Har wrote:

I just skimmed through a few more responses and I didn't see it but if it was already stated then disregard.

StGabriel, you are a swordsman right? we shouldn't even be able to slice weapons that don't have any kind of electronics or moving parts. Just how are we supposed to slice a sword with a few electronic tools?

(Quick side note) Actually...yeah, he can. A lot of blade weapons in the star wars universe are vibro weapons...that means that the edges of the blades vibrate slightly, kinda like an electric knife for turkeys....or a very light, quiet chain saw.

Yes, I am a geek.

SirVimes

Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:54 pm

#286

obijkenob1 wrote:

Vimes, I was wondering, are you a smuggler now or just helping us out? If its the latter, thanks

You are welcome...but not just sure for what.

In order for a revamp to be successful, it has to be:

1) Fun, especially for smugglers.

2) Give smugglers a sense that they are actually smuggling something.

3) Make smugglers a part of the community, that they can affect the world and community around them and not just a group playing their own mini game.

4) Not piss off the rest of the player base with illegal activites...well, not too much

I just think that fitting all four of those catagories is a huge challenge...and makes for interesting debate. And maybe after the revamp goes in I will try smuggler

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