Smuggler Archive
Thread: Apparently Neutrals/Civilians aren't important.
Landorin
Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:01 am
#14
" Apparently Neutrals/Civilians aren't important."
Apparently that topic would be true when I read the first few postings but not the way you imagine it; if the game would become the way you would want it then the true neutrals would have no home anymore (that are the people who do not wish to get involved at all into the gcw and who don't want to be harmed by Imperials). So don't talk of neutrals if you give statements such as "what? neutrals cant shoot stormies" since you rather sound like pseudo-neutrals who are neutral because they couldn't fully decide what side they want to play (but they do want to be part of the gcw). Don't forget about the true neutrals when posting your reasons. By the way, you don't have to be neutral to be a pseudo-neutral smuggler. It's all about roleplay, you know, you can still be a rebel covert and play a neutral/criminal smuggler - on Eclipse this works really well.
And it's really unbelievable how little faith you got in the devs. If they only cared about Rebels and Imperials then they would not have taken the effort to design a whole neutral themepark (and a lot more other stuff). Instead of complaining, you should wait and see how the smuggler and GCW revamp turn out.
Don't get me wrong, I do favor smugglers as well as the underworld faction idea but you can't take away the true neutral side from the people who play this game without wanting to be harmed by the GCW.
Apparently that topic would be true when I read the first few postings but not the way you imagine it; if the game would become the way you would want it then the true neutrals would have no home anymore (that are the people who do not wish to get involved at all into the gcw and who don't want to be harmed by Imperials). So don't talk of neutrals if you give statements such as "what? neutrals cant shoot stormies" since you rather sound like pseudo-neutrals who are neutral because they couldn't fully decide what side they want to play (but they do want to be part of the gcw). Don't forget about the true neutrals when posting your reasons. By the way, you don't have to be neutral to be a pseudo-neutral smuggler. It's all about roleplay, you know, you can still be a rebel covert and play a neutral/criminal smuggler - on Eclipse this works really well.
And it's really unbelievable how little faith you got in the devs. If they only cared about Rebels and Imperials then they would not have taken the effort to design a whole neutral themepark (and a lot more other stuff). Instead of complaining, you should wait and see how the smuggler and GCW revamp turn out.
Don't get me wrong, I do favor smugglers as well as the underworld faction idea but you can't take away the true neutral side from the people who play this game without wanting to be harmed by the GCW.
Message Edited by Landorin on 02-05-2005 12:10 PM
Nicolas_Frost
Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:54 am
#15
flipityfloo wrote:
well, my opinion is this. one of the devs main points with the improvementof this game is making it feel more 'star warsy'. i can certainly understand that the gcw is the priority in a achieving that. however, the underworld is just as an important in achieving that. i think this game will be so more fleshed out with a functional underworld. i'm really looking forward to seeing this.
This is true, but as we've stated before, there need to be laws before we can break them. The Underworld is based on breaking the law. Thusly, the Underworld will have to come afterwards.
TomoRainer
Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:01 am
#16
SOETyrant wrote:We haven't forgotten about smugglers (like you would ever let us).
lol, Tyrant, and you know you love us for it. We're the kind of pain in the ass that feels good.
Great to see you come in and answer one of our concerns.
SpinningCloud
Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:35 am
#17
I'm willing to give SOE till shortly after the CU to deal with Smugglers AS SMUGGLERS.
If they don't pony up very shortly after the CU though they will lose my account for good. I think we have all been patient quite long enough.
KainMalice
Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:53 am
#18
So far we seem to be only hearing from the Rebel and Netural side of things. If you want a better GCW one thing that needs to happen is a reason for people to joing the Imperials. Right now the only true worth while perk of being an Imp is that when we get scanned we don't get teffed. All of our faction perks get out weighed by our disadvantages. I'm not sure on numbers but In a typical day for every Imp I see, I see about 10 reb or neut. Seems to me to have a GCW you actually need two sides. I mean it seems SoE takes a Shotgun to kill a fly at least thats how it has been in the past. Ok I agree one person being able to have 3 AT-ST out at once was ridiculous, but making them so weak that a marksman can kill them that is also ridiculous. Also one thing I see wrong with the GCW right now we are in a time period when the IMP's are supposed to have most of the resources, I'm not sure and I know I'm going to get flamed but it really seems that in the game the rebels get better supplied then the IMP's. It is also very discouraging to me a Loyal imperial since release with only a few months off, that every CSR that I have talked to in General Chat is a Rebel sympathizer, how does that make for fair decisions. Also I understand things need to change in the game to make them more fun and interesting, but to tell the truth the most fun I had in this game was back at release when you had to group just to kill tusk cats on rori, back then the game was fun and difficult like I thought it would be, but people complained about this and about that and yes somethings needed to change but instead of doing small little tweeks that needed to be done it seemed that SoE took out the shotgun again to kill a fly, if you talk with some of the population that has been around since the begining you would hear that we liked it back then. Yet back then Dev's and CSR's wouldn't listen to our suggestions. So alot of the old players just quit or have gone quite.I'm also so sick of people complaining it will hurt me if you hurt me I'll quit, just shut up. I have endored every nerf since the beginging of the game. Which yes most of them have hurt me but you adapt, So adapt. I see alot of good things in this Upcoming Combat update, Its a step in the right direction after a year of going in the wrong direction. And I really don't want you new players screwing it up with your whining!!!
Nicolas_Frost
Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:46 am
#19
KainMalice wrote:
So far we seem to be only hearing from the Rebel and Netural side of things. If you want a better GCW one thing that needs to happen is a reason for people to joing the Imperials. Right now the only true worth while perk of being an Imp is that when we get scanned we don't get teffed. All of our faction perks get out weighed by our disadvantages. I'm not sure on numbers but In a typical day for every Imp I see, I see about 10 reb or neut. Seems to me to have a GCW you actually need two sides. I mean it seems SoE takes a Shotgun to kill a fly at least thats how it has been in the past. Ok I agree one person being able to have 3 AT-ST out at once was ridiculous, but making them so weak that a marksman can kill them that is also ridiculous. Also one thing I see wrong with the GCW right now we are in a time period when the IMP's are supposed to have most of the resources, I'm not sure and I know I'm going to get flamed but it really seems that in the game the rebels get better supplied then the IMP's. It is also very discouraging to me a Loyal imperial since release with only a few months off, that every CSR that I have talked to in General Chat is a Rebel sympathizer, how does that make for fair decisions. Also I understand things need to change in the game to make them more fun and interesting, but to tell the truth the most fun I had in this game was back at release when you had to group just to kill tusk cats on rori, back then the game was fun and difficult like I thought it would be, but people complained about this and about that and yes somethings needed to change but instead of doing small little tweeks that needed to be done it seemed that SoE took out the shotgun again to kill a fly, if you talk with some of the population that has been around since the begining you would hear that we liked it back then. Yet back then Dev's and CSR's wouldn't listen to our suggestions. So alot of the old players just quit or have gone quite.I'm also so sick of people complaining it will hurt me if you hurt me I'll quit, just shut up. I have endored every nerf since the beginging of the game. Which yes most of them have hurt me but you adapt, So adapt. I see alot of good things in this Upcoming Combat update, Its a step in the right direction after a year of going in the wrong direction. And I really don't want you new players screwing it up with your whining!!!
Okay, first off,please use properbreaks and punctuation to make it much easier to read your posts.
Next, there area few main problems with why there are so many Rebels in the game.
- Many of them just want to be on the winning side. They've seen Return of the Jedi, and know that Luke turns his father Good, who in turn kills the Emperor, starting the downfall of the Empire. These are the same guys who just allow themselves to be seen losing.
- Many people just want to be the good guys, and equate the Rebels with the Good guys. They're correct in this assumption. However, they fail to realize many Imperials(in Star Wars) are ignorant of some of the facts, they believe Imperial Propaganda and Misinformation, thusly, believe that the Empire is Right and Just.
- Other than the current forced Overt status from Crackdown Units, there's no big downside to being a Rebel. To make it so that there are fewer Rebels, the game must be altered so that it is difficult to be a Rebel.
- There are downsides to being an Imperial, if you're non-human. While this does fit in with Imperial bigotry in Star Wars Lore, only those who really wanna be Imperial, for whatever reason, will be Imperial.
That's all I can think of at the moment, since my time here at work right now is very limited(shift should be over, but my relief is late).
Wrath1
Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:40 am
#20
To me this is one of the more ludicrous statements I have seen in recent memory. In reality, you are under the sphere of influence of the Empire and are therefore considered IMPERIAL. The only exception SHOULD be Overt, or known, Rebels.
Neutrality was created for casual gamers so the game was not totally POLARIZED. As a buffer for the 2 warring factions though, Neutrality is a failure. TEF allows this to improve slightly, but in the end, as Colonel in the Imperial Army, it is my responsibility to crush all opposition. Rebels and Neutral are opposition as they have not dedicated themselves to the Emperor.
It is my opinion you should declare yourself a rebel, go overt, and stand in the middle of theed. I will be there shortly.
see sig...
SmugglinZane
Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:14 am
#21
Nicolas_Frost wrote:
No offence, Zane, but in civil wars, there really are only two main sides. Primarily because at leastone side is of the mindset "you're either with us or you're not". After the two main sides, there are secondary sides which will aid either one out of beliefs, profit, or the thought of the lesser of two evils; or any combination of them.
Lets take the American Revolution. While it was a revolt against Great Brittan, it could also be seen as a civil war. The Colonies were technically Brittish at the start, and the spark that ignited this war was internal to these two sides. While there were weapons and such that were Smuggled into the Colonies, those who did this did so out of profit & beliefs, and they were not joining in the fight(at least, not many andnot officially).
Forward to the American Civil War. It was a revolution as well, however, the side that was revolting failed. Same basic idea as before.
How about the Korean War? North and South Korea were at war. Some nations joined in to help the South, some joined in to help the North. Some only supplied either side.
Itsa war. Wars are based on "what side of the fence people are on". In the end, people riding the fence, civilians, get hurt the most. Its sad, but its true. This new system is a way of moving the people riding the fence to the sidelines. The only downside to this is less interaction amongst them, because they're "out of harm's way".
In the American revolution, how many "English Citizens" were killed by mistake? In the Civil War, how many law abiding plantations got burned to the ground? How many Koreans were killed because they either secretly or were just suspected of helping one side or the other? The point is this. Wars are never just about one side or the other. In civil war, more than any other kind, the tragedy is that those who aren't on a side pay a terrible price. Because more often than not, you can't tell the difference between an opponent or an ally, whichever side is in control at the time suspects the worst of you if you haven't picked their side. They catch you with something illegal or fringeand you're not "on their side" then they feel they have to assume your goods are supporting their opposition.
Wars are not always based upon what side you're on, but what side they think you're on. Not only that, but the ones who don't pick a side or don't get involved are often used to punish or draw in the other's opponent. War has neverhad crystal clear lines. Especially in a war of oppression and persecution.
Mirkwoods
Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:23 am
#22
Maybe there should be a (so-called) TEF that can be activated by non declaired players. Maybe a TD (Temporary Declairation).
The only way that someone could get a TD is that they choose it, therefore, they are not being forced into PvP. I'd say to puta clicky for itin the character sheet faction page.
I also think that once you activate it, you shouldn't be able to attack for a countdown of say, 15-30 seconds, so that you can't ambush people this way.
When they click on the option, a local area announcement will be made for people within like a 30k radius (or something). They will also turn red and be attackable by the opposite faction.
This would encourage people to turn it on away from people, then join the battle.
Turning it off: option 1: Like the old days, they could have to visit a recruiter of the faction they chose to join, and be made back to what they were
previously.
option 2: Allow the players to shut it off themselves, much like putting a droid away. You cannot be in combat, and you have to wait
like 30 seconds before it turns off. Any combat would cancel the action.
Just a brainstorm. I think it would work. Feel free to point out my flaws in logic and ways people could exploit it.
Message Edited by Mirkwoods on 02-05-2005 07:25 AM
Karquile
Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:24 am
#23
I hope that Gordon is still reading and that he hears the following loud and clear.
Many, many player customers of GALAXIES enjoy it for the coolness of the Star Wars universe, and the chance to explore and create and hunt and build and stuff in that "Galaxy far, far away" (from their grim day jobs!)... and NOT, necessarily or primarily, to take part in a Galactic Civil War.
I would suggest to you that if you watch the movies, especially in the time frame where GALAXIES is set, and you look at any scene where significant numbers of people are shown... most of them are just living their lives. At its peak (unless you had the bad luck to live on Alderaan) the GCW only occupies the attentions and actions of a fraction of people in the Star Wars universe.
And I would further submit to youthat even in the GCW plot context of the movies, time and time again the most interesting characters we see - Jabba, Lando, Boba Fett, etc - are conniving, scheming, extremely dangerous neutrals looking for their own advantage from the tin-soldier battles raging around them.
You need to keep both of these ideas in mind as you revamp the GCW. Faction campaigner players are very vocal and passionate about their gameplay style, and they're obviously an important segment of the playerbase, but they're not all of the playerbase - nor are they the only ones who "matter." The other segment pays its money too, and they're entitled to play the game they pay for.
And, just as importantly, there should be valid ways for people to fight the GCW the way Jabba or Boba Fettfight it... dangerously, for all the marbles, but with no ultimate allegiance except to themselves.
Thanks for listening
dashbarron
Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:27 am
#24
Go to the GCW forum, the correspodent auraboron has a thread sticked with ideas for civilians. Post your thoughts there and he'll see what he can do with them.
SmugglinZane
Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:36 am
#25
SOETyrant wrote:
I'm cutting out my above post since you can read it up there and so this post takes up less space.
>The saddest part to me, and yes I am reading into this, is that this is a telling preview of the revamp.
Of course your read is not fact, but speculation. All we are doing right now (simplified) is opening the GCW to PvE players so that significantly more people have access to that content.
We certainly understand that Star Wars is more than Rebels and Imperials. But this is the prime conflict that drives the Star Wars universe. We know we need other factions including a vibrant underworld.
We haven't forgotten about smugglers (like you would ever let us
Message Edited by SOETyrant on 02-04-2005 10:49 PM
It is speculation and I apologise for it. I know it leads us down the wrong road many times, but it is still a logical observation since the only authority that takes action is Imperial authority.
I appreciate that you are planning on content for us as well as a vibrant underworld, but there is one concept that is quite perplexing to me. If, for the better of the game, you are switching for an opt in system, why not allow more people to opt in. I'm not saying all civilians should be subject to Imperial Law, but those who choose to for either RP purposes or just more content should have that option. This is an MMORPG, and when you change the game to limit an RP option, you are defeating the purpose of the game.
The argument that it's war goes both ways, but I chose to get into more detail about why it would be more beneficial to have a civilian opt in option.
Lastly, somebody said that the underworld could not be done anytime soon and would probably be something for a future expansion. For a long time people have waited for the Combat Upgrade to fix their problems, and now they're being told they either have to wait even longer to use those fixes or change the founding pretense and stories of their characters. Many people have played with these characters (RP or not) for over a year and now their stories are meaningless. To have to say again, just wait for y to fix x goes against all the great things you have rolled out recently.
Tyrant, I want to thank you not only for trying to answer my concerns, but for just posting here in the Smuggler forum in general. You and Tiggs coming here recently to try and clear things up for us. My posts are not meant to beattacks on the team or you, but I (and others) feel very strongly about this and I'm just trying to convey this. We don't want to hear wait for whatever publish or expansion anymore. I won't give you a run down of the different times we've been told this, but there comes a point where you feel the need to say you've waited long enough and it's time to try and fix something before it comes out.
Once again, thanks for taking the time to answer.
SpinningCloud
Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:40 am
#26
I completely agree with Zane...110%.
You very much need to understand the points he is making Sony. If you don't then you are really out of touch with part of your customer base and that can't be good for business.