Smuggler Archive
Thread: Apparently Neutrals/Civilians aren't important.
Kais
Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:46 am
#27
The neutrals/civilians should just be patient... I'm thinking that the next expansion (this "secret" team they've been talking about) is the opening up of the Hutt faction. That would put it more in line with space, and bring back something they really wanted in the game when the original beta was going on.
Can't say when it would be coming out, but my guess is towards the fall.
Can't say when it would be coming out, but my guess is towards the fall.
SmugglinZane
Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:49 am
#28
Landorin wrote:
" Apparently Neutrals/Civilians aren't important."
Apparently that topic would be true when I read the first few postings but not the way you imagine it; if the game would become the way you would want it then the true neutrals would have no home anymore (that are the people who do not wish to get involved at all into the gcw and who don't want to be harmed by Imperials). So don't talk of neutrals if you give statements such as "what? neutrals cant shoot stormies" since you rather sound like pseudo-neutrals who are neutral because they couldn't fully decide what side they want to play (but they do want to be part of the gcw). Don't forget about the true neutrals when posting your reasons. By the way, you don't have to be neutral to be a pseudo-neutral smuggler. It's all about roleplay, you know, you can still be a rebel covert and play a neutral/criminal smuggler - on Eclipse this works really well.
And it's really unbelievable how little faith you got in the devs. If they only cared about Rebels and Imperials then they would not have taken the effort to design a whole neutral themepark (and a lot more other stuff). Instead of complaining, you should wait and see how the smuggler and GCW revamp turn out.
Don't get me wrong, I do favor smugglers as well as the underworld faction idea but you can't take away the true neutral side from the people who play this game without wanting to be harmed by the GCW.
Message Edited by Landorin on 02-05-2005 12:10 PM
1. Staying neutral in a conflict does not preclude you from being involved in it. In other words, just because you don't pick a side does not mean the ruling authority will always believe you haven't chosen a side.
2. Instead of taking a step forward from the "Crackdown" and allowing neutrals the ability to interact with the ONLY ACTING AUTHORITY when they get scanned, we are taking a step backwards.
3. I didn't ask to shoot stormies like faction farming rebels. It's shortsightedness that puts people in the predicament of crying nerf only to see their own abilities nerfed.
4. Many neutrals in the stories still suffered the wrath of the Empire. Go back and watch the movies and read some books. Alderaan was a planet of peace loving citizens. Bespin was an independant mining colony. To say pick a side to be involved in coflict even goes against the movies, without even bringing the EU into it.
5. I am thinking of the true neutrals in this matter. I asked for an opt in system for civilians, not just for the Empire to go around shooting random random civilians. I'm not taking away from anyone, but trying to add another logical layer.
6. I have a lot of faith in the development team. They are taking tremendous steps in the right direction, but that doesn't mean I have to blindly agree with a change that I believe is a step in the wrong direction. I do not wish to have another situation where we are waiting for another publish or revamp in order to expand content when a slight adjustment to an already planned publish can be made. Community is defined by interaction. I am interacting, simple as that.
Message Edited by SmugglinZane on 02-05-2005 10:51 AM
SmugglinZane
Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:03 am
#29
Kais wrote:
The neutrals/civilians should just be patient... I'm thinking that the next expansion (this "secret" team they've been talking about) is the opening up of the Hutt faction. That would put it more in line with space, and bring back something they really wanted in the game when the original beta was going on.
Can't say when it would be coming out, but my guess is towards the fall.
I understand the "secret team" and underworld expansion concept. I'm not disputing that there aren't some future plans. What I am arguing for is a slight change to the proposed system to keep people involved in the interim. How many times do you need to be told to wait for something (I'm not even going to get into whether or not you're a Smuggler waiting for something:smileywink
.
.To say wait til the fall, after being told wait for the space expansion, then wait for the revamp, wait for the revamp again, wait until after the Jedi, and wait until the CURB,sounds like some people are willing to wait forever for a solution that's right in front of them.
Somebody else put it a bit more simple here. For their to be an underworld, there has to be an authority/law first. By taking the neutrals even further out of the equation removes a good portion of that authority/law.
SmugglinZane
Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:14 am
#30
I'd like to make one more statement here quick because people seem to think I'm throwing a dev bash party, or dislike the new system in it's entirety.
Please read the entire thread as it seems to be taking me a little bit to clarify what I'm saying. I like the new changes, but feel they need to add a few more options within them. I am aware of what a true neutral is, but there are many players who remain neutral to play "fringe" personalities since it's the only way to do it until an underworld is developed. I am simply proposing that there be an option for neutrals to be able to interact with the environment until that comes out. What also must be thought about is the fact that some people will not even want to declare loyalty to an underworld faction since their loyalty is to themselves and the money they make. You will still be forcing them to choose a faction in order to interact with the environment and the situation will still remain. A small addition to the new system will allow MANY players to continue a certain play style and character story.
I think the devs are doing a great job with the changes they've rolled out. They've had a level of communication, bug fixes, and overall game improvement unlike anything I've seen in this game or any other to date. They're doing a great job, but I think they're getting this one wrong, not completely, but still getting part of it wrong.
omadnay
Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:26 am
#31
I just have a few thoughts that may be helpful on this subject.
Neutrals are neutral... truly being neutral means not taking sides.
As it stands now, and this will not be changing with the TEF changes, if a "neutral" player starts to feel certain tendencies or the desire to take a side (Even if only temporary) they CAN.
The game mechanic of joining a Faction is simple, and it does not mean that your character is joining the military and serving as some kind of officer.
It is a game-mechanic to allow a player to act upon thier true feelings if they so wish.
Currently, a covert is not necessarily someone that is a soldier of a faction and undercover...
No, this player could be someone that shares certain core beliefs or values of that side of the war.
It is simple and a good game-mechanic to join and remove yourself from either faction whenever you want to.
If your mercenary wishes to perform some jobs for the Empire, perhaps you might want to gain covert Imperial Status so you can better play that out.
Same goes for the other side.
It is very easy to maintain the Faction Points to do both factions.
This works very well for a mercenary concerned with a role between the two sides... as you said occasionally neutrals get involved.
Well, it's in the game, perhaps not in as quick or immediate a way as you would like, but it IS in there.
Here's one example, Luke Skywalker early on in ANH: Is he neutral? Covert Rebel? He "Hates the Empire", but there's nothing he "can do about it". Once push comes to shove, he discovers that there is something he can do and he does take action.
Now, it may not be perfect, but you can run your character the same way.
Yes, perhaps an immediate option to take sides right then and there when something happens that would push you over that line could be a nice addition to the game... BUT saying that the neutrals have nothing like this is completely wrong.
Same goes for Han Solo... (E.U. would have you believe that he was an Imperial Soldier) Later on he certainly was neutral and then he absolutely decided the rewards were good enough to knowingly take action against the Empire (in SWG terms that equals joining the faction). While he didn't go run to a recruiter and become a Covert Rebel in the films... this is after all a video game. Performing this game-mechanic is not a complete immersion killer (You have to have a little leeway between immersion and video-game mechanics).
You could argue Boba Fett grabbed Imperial Faction Status to take his job for the Empire (in SWG terms, he may have already been a faction member...)
Secondly, the idea of an open PvP mode for neutral criminals and the like...
There are great game-mechanics to represent these aspects of Star Wars life already, as well.
First and foremost is "DUEL".
A crime wolrd isn't necessarily run on the notion of "Red = Dead".
That is basically what open PvP comes down to.
However, if you play in an immersive story arc where you do have certain criminal enemies that currently have a strong vendetta/war and for some reason the ability to engage in PvP through dueling is just not cutting it...
there is the Guild War game-mechanic.
I know, Guilds have been formed since the beginning of this game with perhaps the wrong intentions on the players' behalf.
Most of us have formed guilds based on friendships, and the ability to pool resources together and aide eachother... to make a communal gaming experience.
The only game-mechanic that truly serves those purposes are the common chat channel for the "guild" members. That aspect of teamwork truly do not require these players to belong to the same guild, as custom chat channels can easily be used to accomplish the same exact thing.
Perhaps, we as players should better utilize the game-mechanics that DO exist for us to accomplish all the things we would like to see.
Guilds could be used more-so as in-game (in-character) organizations, such as your "faction" of the underworld.
Using Guilds that way would really open up your ability to have open conflicts with enemy crminals (Other Guilds of different underworld factions).
I mean no insult in posting all of this, nor do I believe that other things cannot or should not be implimented, but I do believe that we as the players have the abilities and the game-mechanics to do a lot more than what we have been doing and what you are saying the neutrals can and cannot do.
The game has been out long enough... it is really coming together in a great way (IMO). Now, perhaps, it's time for the community to revamp a little bit.
There are many things that we've been over-looking.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
Neutrals are neutral... truly being neutral means not taking sides.
As it stands now, and this will not be changing with the TEF changes, if a "neutral" player starts to feel certain tendencies or the desire to take a side (Even if only temporary) they CAN.
The game mechanic of joining a Faction is simple, and it does not mean that your character is joining the military and serving as some kind of officer.
It is a game-mechanic to allow a player to act upon thier true feelings if they so wish.
Currently, a covert is not necessarily someone that is a soldier of a faction and undercover...
No, this player could be someone that shares certain core beliefs or values of that side of the war.
It is simple and a good game-mechanic to join and remove yourself from either faction whenever you want to.
If your mercenary wishes to perform some jobs for the Empire, perhaps you might want to gain covert Imperial Status so you can better play that out.
Same goes for the other side.
It is very easy to maintain the Faction Points to do both factions.
This works very well for a mercenary concerned with a role between the two sides... as you said occasionally neutrals get involved.
Well, it's in the game, perhaps not in as quick or immediate a way as you would like, but it IS in there.
Here's one example, Luke Skywalker early on in ANH: Is he neutral? Covert Rebel? He "Hates the Empire", but there's nothing he "can do about it". Once push comes to shove, he discovers that there is something he can do and he does take action.
Now, it may not be perfect, but you can run your character the same way.
Yes, perhaps an immediate option to take sides right then and there when something happens that would push you over that line could be a nice addition to the game... BUT saying that the neutrals have nothing like this is completely wrong.
Same goes for Han Solo... (E.U. would have you believe that he was an Imperial Soldier) Later on he certainly was neutral and then he absolutely decided the rewards were good enough to knowingly take action against the Empire (in SWG terms that equals joining the faction). While he didn't go run to a recruiter and become a Covert Rebel in the films... this is after all a video game. Performing this game-mechanic is not a complete immersion killer (You have to have a little leeway between immersion and video-game mechanics).
You could argue Boba Fett grabbed Imperial Faction Status to take his job for the Empire (in SWG terms, he may have already been a faction member...)
Secondly, the idea of an open PvP mode for neutral criminals and the like...
There are great game-mechanics to represent these aspects of Star Wars life already, as well.
First and foremost is "DUEL".
A crime wolrd isn't necessarily run on the notion of "Red = Dead".
That is basically what open PvP comes down to.
However, if you play in an immersive story arc where you do have certain criminal enemies that currently have a strong vendetta/war and for some reason the ability to engage in PvP through dueling is just not cutting it...
there is the Guild War game-mechanic.
I know, Guilds have been formed since the beginning of this game with perhaps the wrong intentions on the players' behalf.
Most of us have formed guilds based on friendships, and the ability to pool resources together and aide eachother... to make a communal gaming experience.
The only game-mechanic that truly serves those purposes are the common chat channel for the "guild" members. That aspect of teamwork truly do not require these players to belong to the same guild, as custom chat channels can easily be used to accomplish the same exact thing.
Perhaps, we as players should better utilize the game-mechanics that DO exist for us to accomplish all the things we would like to see.
Guilds could be used more-so as in-game (in-character) organizations, such as your "faction" of the underworld.
Using Guilds that way would really open up your ability to have open conflicts with enemy crminals (Other Guilds of different underworld factions).
I mean no insult in posting all of this, nor do I believe that other things cannot or should not be implimented, but I do believe that we as the players have the abilities and the game-mechanics to do a lot more than what we have been doing and what you are saying the neutrals can and cannot do.
The game has been out long enough... it is really coming together in a great way (IMO). Now, perhaps, it's time for the community to revamp a little bit.
There are many things that we've been over-looking.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
LaughingWolf
Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:32 am
#32
Thanks SOETyrant, for the communication.
SmugglingZane: The Nick method in action.
Very clear , polite, firm. Great posts.
SmugglingZane: The Nick method in action.
Very clear , polite, firm. Great posts.
omadnay
Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:35 am
#33
One other side note to the changes coming...
You may be over-looking the "On Leave" Status.
This would allow a character that is mostly neutral, but holds a feeling or opinion inside that goes against one of the other factions, to work and help all types of players (regardless of Faction) and not be directly open to attack from opposing factioned NPC's.
Doing Rebel Faction on leave with your "Neutral" character would allow you to quickly decide to take action against Storm-Troopers, if the desire should arise.
Basically the problem here is... if you ARE neutral... you would not decide to shoot a Storm Trooper.
If you WOULD decide to shoot a Storm Trooper... then you are against the concepts of the Empire.
If you are against the concepts of the Empire, as opposed to being indifferent, then you are a "Rebel".
In my opinion, being "Rebel" does not necessarily mean that you are part of the rebel alliance. It means that you share the disliking of the Empire... The Alliance is basically made up of all different people that share that common enemy.
Being opposed to the Empire's laws and TAKING ACTION along those lines, is NOT being neutral.
May the force be with you.
- Omadda Szool
You may be over-looking the "On Leave" Status.
This would allow a character that is mostly neutral, but holds a feeling or opinion inside that goes against one of the other factions, to work and help all types of players (regardless of Faction) and not be directly open to attack from opposing factioned NPC's.
Doing Rebel Faction on leave with your "Neutral" character would allow you to quickly decide to take action against Storm-Troopers, if the desire should arise.
Basically the problem here is... if you ARE neutral... you would not decide to shoot a Storm Trooper.
If you WOULD decide to shoot a Storm Trooper... then you are against the concepts of the Empire.
If you are against the concepts of the Empire, as opposed to being indifferent, then you are a "Rebel".
In my opinion, being "Rebel" does not necessarily mean that you are part of the rebel alliance. It means that you share the disliking of the Empire... The Alliance is basically made up of all different people that share that common enemy.
Being opposed to the Empire's laws and TAKING ACTION along those lines, is NOT being neutral.
May the force be with you.
- Omadda Szool
Kais
Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:47 am
#34
Well, you're right about that Zane... the Smugglers do have cause to be gun shy about the whole thing. The smuggler revamp was promised for, when.... back in the 1950's? The new faction point buying system is at least a bone that they threw your way. Too bad they can't seem to fix the auto-pull from crates when slicing. LOL That one is what drove me away for a while.
I guess you can look at it like this... would you rather have a nice, very small improvement done very soon, or wait a little bit and hopefully get a very cool expansion that will blow you away.
Maybe I'm an optimist though. Maybe the new expansion will be Uber Jedi Wars Extreme.
I guess you can look at it like this... would you rather have a nice, very small improvement done very soon, or wait a little bit and hopefully get a very cool expansion that will blow you away.
Maybe I'm an optimist though. Maybe the new expansion will be Uber Jedi Wars Extreme.
SpinningCloud
Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:51 am
#35
Kais; "...and hopefully get a very cool expansion that will blow you away."
Yeah, and cows will fly and gummyworms will grow on cotton candy trees.
The problem is that with Sony batting a huge ZERO with smugglers there is NO basis for believing ANYTHING will ever be done to us that actually makes us SMUGGLE.
As for throwing us bones you WOULD think that it would be fairly simple to change the smuggler slicing and master box descriptions to show the increasing % slice capability. I KNOW how easy that one is after three decades in engineering so no one can claim it's 'involved'. At least with THAT small change we would get rid of one recurring thread thorn-in-our-side in this forum.
So given the fact that they can't seem to fix the absolute SIMPLEST of smuggler issues, AND they have a proven track record of leading us on, delaying and nerfing us I really fail to find ANY room in myself for faith, understanding, patience or compassion.
JediArashi
Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:02 am
#36
I think that there have been a lot of good points raised in here. One of the most basic things to rmember though, for us Smugglers is our ability to quickly jump the fence through faction purchases.
It is that ability that is intended to allow the nuetral smuggler to exist within the GCW and not choose a side all the time, and to profit from both.
Is the FP system perfect? No, butI think it wouldn't be too hard to improve upon it. They already made great leaps by removing the caps. I think if they also gave us more leeway in how we interact with faction recruiters, we could really take advantage of our ability.
It truly would alleviate most of your concerns 'Zane if our ability to jump fence so freely was utilized to its fullest potential. We may have to wait for our revamp, or the GCW revamp, but I think it could and should be done. And, with the way they have been cranking out great, meaningful patches, you never know....
Ternque01
Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:22 am
#37
SOETyrant wrote:
We haven't forgotten about smugglers (like you would ever let us
LOL
WesBelden
Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:41 am
#38
TomoRainer wrote:
lol, Tyrant, and you know you love us for it. We're the kind of pain in the ass that feels good.
Great to see you come in and answer one of our concerns.
I never realised I had that effect on people.. although it might explain a few things...
Anyway, Zane; you should check Dev tracker more often, if you had, you'd have seen Gordon say, "The Rebels are coming." Now either that's a strange and cryptic thingy'm'bob, or.. well, the Rebels are coming 
.
SmugglinZane
Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:48 am
#39
WesBelden wrote:
TomoRainer wrote:
lol, Tyrant, and you know you love us for it. We're the kind of pain in the ass that feels good.
Great to see you come in and answer one of our concerns.
I never realised I had that effect on people.. although it might explain a few things...
Anyway, Zane; you should check Dev tracker more often, if you had, you'd have seen Gordon say, "The Rebels are coming." Now either that's a strange and cryptic thingy'm'bob, or.. well, the Rebels are coming
Wes, I check that thing almost as much as I check this forum. Before I post anything I usually check it just to make sure they haven't already addressed it... To be honest I'm still trying to grasp that one which is why I didn't reply to it. To me it has a couple possible meanings. Maybe I'm a bit obtuse on that one. 
I know you obviously can't comment on stuff since you said you asked about this stuff before, so I guess it comes down to them having something planned that we don't know about. Yes I know that's always the case, but TEF changes and how players interact with the environment is second only to the CURB in how it will affect the community and I want to make sure that all the voices are heard, not just the ones who are at war.
Oh yeah, I know you know what he means... DARN YOU SPECIAL TYPES!!!
... DARN YOU SPECIAL TYPES!!!Message Edited by SmugglinZane on 02-05-2005 01:49 PM