Smuggler Archive
Thread: Depending On Smugglers
Needing an entertainer to heal my battle fatigue is an 'inconvenience', needing a doctor to heal my wounds, cure bleeds, poisons, and disease is an inconvenience but at the same time the provided the interdependance needed in this game. Right now no one needs a smuggler for anything.
The idea behind a smuggler revamp is to provide content and features to the smuggler profession. We already do provide benefits to players. What we don't do is any smuggling. Last time I checked the title of our profession was smuggler not the pseudo-criminal buffing crafter. Does contraband need to be a fun thing? Yes, of course it does. And the rewards need to be worth the risk. The not so subtle distinction is how many people don't want the risk, they just seem to want reward which is currently how our smuggler services work. Solo equated it to have a cheat mode on and that's what so many seem to want.
And in the opinion of many of us, Gabe's suggestions were poor as well as his arguements of why he should get a free ride off the back of smugglers. If you don't agree that's ok to because that's your opinion.
Message Edited by Roadego on 03-26-2004 06:23 PM
StGabriel wrote:
Slicing is ILLEGAL. Spices are ILLEGAL.
See my above comments regarding: just because it fits the story doesn't mean that it's fun.
StGabe.
Here is the real crux of the issue, and no other reason should be needed.
The developers have given you a way to minimize detection in any contraband system they employ. How? By taking up the smuggler profession. If you want the abilities, you must spend the skill points. If you choose not to spend those points, then that is your choice. It is your choice to leave yourself open to contraband scans. It is your choice to depend on sliced equipment. And it is your choice to view your worth in the game only in relation to others.
This isn't balance we're talking about, as that's really the only time when comparing yourself to another is needed. You can do anything you want in this game. But some things, like creating weapons and armor, slicing them, etc., can only be done when the proper skills are bought.
That is the basis of this game.
If (and hopefully when) a robust contraband system is put in place, you will still have this choice. Take up smuggler, orhave a greater chance for punishment by the authorities if you carry contraband.
It may not be fun to you, but I would have a blast. And the current system isn't too fun for me. It's not a question of what's fun, as fun can't really be quantified, and what is fun for one person may not be fun for another. "Fun" needs also to take into consideration "internal consistency" with the game world. And that is what we need, and what you are so vehemently against.
Of course, you'll likely deny that, too.
Gabe wants to be able to walk around the city/town where he lives with a full automatic uzi/assault rifle(take your pick) and NOT have the police harrass/arrest or even talk to him about it. Of course he doesn't need that gun to live his day to day life but it gives him a big advantage if he gets jumped by some street punks.
The smugglers here of course argue that we sold that illegal gun to him (even if it was legal to carry a weapon in the open with a concealed weapon license) and he should run the risk f running afoul of the law by carrying said weapon. We should also run a risk for selling it to him.
I really hate to say it, but I think this thread is going to get nowhere.
There is no way we're going to be able to convince Gabe that contraband should be part of the game in a way that makes things the slightest bit inconvenient to him (despite the fact that there are many other time-consuming inconvenient things we all wait for all the time) and we're not going to give up the desire to have a rich gaming environment accurately representing the opressive and harsh legal system prevalent during this time period and thereby be useful to the overall player base as more than (legal) drug dealers and (legal) modifiers of weapons and armor.
I give up.
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
This thread is a great example of why I envy those who are not correspondents.
I'm going to just...sit over here in this corner. Counting to ten...thousand. Hopefully it will be enough.
Why?
As you left it, that's a big cop-out.
Let's have some jusification and communication as to why you refuse to respond to this sort of thread.
And let's hear why you would envy the non-correspondents.
electricnomad wrote:
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
This thread is a great example of why I envy those who are not correspondents.
I'm going to just...sit over here in this corner. Counting to ten...thousand. Hopefully it will be enough.
Why?
As you left it, that's a big cop-out.
Let's have some jusification and communication as to why you refuse to respond to this sort of thread.
And let's hear why you would envy the non-correspondents.
My guess is that the correspondents have to work together in their forum in some capacity, so he does not want to upset that delicate balance by pointing out that StGabe is, to put it plainly, trolling the Smuggler forum.StGabriel may have started out in this thread by merely bringing up an idea that occurred to him (albeit an insanely selfish and misguided idea, but an idea nonetheless), and posting it here in our forum. But due to the fact that he delivered his message of "lets-kick-the-smugglers-while-they-are-down" shortly after our fourth and fifth game-breaking nerfs from the developers, he was not quite prepared by the hostility he encountered from us, the Smuggler community.
Sure, this is all speculation on my part, but just in case I am right, I will be happy to say it myself.
"StGabriel, take your trolling someplace else. We're all stocked up here."
Sorry if I am coming across kind of harsh, but I am getting seriously pissed off, and don't need to come to this board and read this garbage coming from a Correspondent of another profession who thinks that having to rely on Smugglers in any capacity takes away from his gameplay. I'd like to see someone try that garbage in the Doctor or Entertainer forums and see what kind of reception they get.
With all the nerfs us Smugglers have had to our profession, the devs are going to have to add a /feign interestskill just to keep us playing.
Stating a contrary opinion is NOT antagonistic. When there was this whole mess with your last correspondent you guys were outspoken about liking to hear the "arguments" regarding a potential change for you guys. I chose simply to make my own personal argument public to you guys, which I would think you would want and seemed to be falling in line with and serving past comments I'd seen here.
It'd all come down to a question of what was worth more to the player.
I respect that this is your goal, and I think that new options in the game ARE good, however you have to see that slicing is nowhere near being something about which you can even question "what's worth more to me" as it simply provides to large a benefit. Again, if slicing were giving maybe a 10% edge to your character I think that the sorts of stuff you are suggesting are more reasonable and palatable. When I slice and you don't and that means I basically win by default, that is not a "tradeoff".
Would you rather have slicing contraband with vastly nerfed slicing or no contraband? Not that this is necessarily the choice you have to make, but I think that for your argument to work it boils down to something like this. There is no tradeoff as long as slicing is so powerful at to be absolutely necessary for all higher end players (which is where slicing currently is).
Slicing is simply not a viable choice for a "tradeoff" right now. That is a primary point which I think you have to deal with in dealing with my discussion here (and which no one has done so far). A desire, in general, to have tradeoffs in the game does not make this work.
I want tradeoffs too, but ones that make sense and add to the collective game and do not simply detract from it. Fun tradeoffs that make the game better are those where choosing to be strong in one area makes you somewhat weaker in another area. Contraband scans, as proposed so far and as implemented, do NOT make one weaker in any area they simply make one
vulnerable to random downtime and fines none of which are "Fun" game dynamics. I am proposing shifts to better sorts of weaknesses that give Smugglers a role without introducing random downtime and arbitrary limitations to other players. That's the thing really, the difference between some arbitrary constraint and one that really makes sense and actually adds to the playing experience. Not looting magseals and having to waste time to switch to covert . . . are both arbitrary penalties that don't add fun to the game. Better to look for more complementary tradeoffs.
"StGabriel wrote:
Look how scans work now? You don't need any smuggler skills to pass a scan your chances are just better at passing them as a smuggler.
I don't think that how scans work now really helps anyone, leastwise Smugglers. I get scanned and there's a chance that I get put overt and have to waste time finding a faction recruit. That's about it. A non-fun game mechanic that penalizes me for using things that I need to use if I'm going to be at all competitive with other players."
You say you need sliced equipment to compete against other players. Fine, so why are you complaining when the only penality for having this equipment is that you may be turned overt. Isnt that what you are equipping yourself for in the first place?
And as to your other comments about being able to play without stims, you would not be able to do that without doc buffs, and take on any sort of mid to upper level content. And unless you are a doc, Im pretty sure you arent making your own stims. You grossly oversimplify required player interaction.
BTW is there anyone here who can pvp effectively without a doc buff? Sometimes I have to go to 3 or more planets to find a buff, I guess I they should just add a 0 meduse buff stim. Or maybe if I want to be able to get a buff at will I could be a doctor.
Alright Gabe. I'm going to try this one more time. MAYBE I'll be able to get through to you.
You say you want a system that's "fun". You also say that you want a system that won't gimp you with respect to your competitors.
Let me explain this again.
Under the system I've discussed and will outline in further detail here, EVERYONE IS GIMPED EQUALLY. Therefore, YOU are not individually gimped any worse than anyone else. You are simply presented with a choice: do I used sliced gear and accept the consequences in exchange for being better in PvP/PvE, or do I not use sliced gear and avoid negative consequences. You have been writing your posts from a fairly limited point of view, namely that it is only YOU who would feel the sting. No one is suggesting the "St.Gabriel Contraband Patch" here. No one's saying "And we'd implement a system that makes only St. Gabriel have to choose whether to use sliced goods or not."
I'm not exactly sure what part of this you're not getting, so I will explain it. Patiently. Again.
If you implement a contraband system, the effects will be felt across the entire game. Not just by you.
You seem to have the belief that if we implemented a contraband system, suddenly everyone BUT you would have the uber advantage that sliced gear gives. And I'll admit, sliced gear DOES give a considerable advantage, be it in PvE or PvP. But you see, Gabe, where your whole argument falls apart is in the line you said earlier.
"Having the choice of:
Be 4 times weaker than yourcompetitors OR spend a lot of your game time searching for Smugglers, imprisoned, etc.
Is not a fun choice."
This is where it all breaks down. Let's examine your statement here in a bit more detail. I think I can see where the flaw in your logic is here. Your key problem here is that you presume that, off the bat, your competitor will ALREADY be 4 times more powerful than you. If that were so, then the choice you present us with would indeed not be much fun. Why? Because you KNOW that the competition is going to mop the floor with you. You KNOW that the other guy has a stronger, better, faster weapon. But that's the problem. If you implemented a real contraband system, what you presume would NOT be a given. You just wouldn't know if the other guy had a sliced gun or not. You couldn't automatically assume that he'd have a weapon that's 4 times more powerful than your own.
Now, I know EXACTLY what you're going to be arguing in your head right here. "Oh yeah, sure. You think someone won't go for a weapon that gives them a 4x advantage over everyone else?? Are you high??" Well guess what. If you set the system up properly, they WON'T just use sliced gear by default. This is what I was getting at in my previous posts where I said that your problem is you view things too much in terms of the current situation.
Right now, everyone and his mother uses sliced gear. They use it because it's an instant, obvious, and significant advantage. They use it because they know everyone else is using it so they have to use it to remain competitive. The also use it because there is NO downside to doing so. I'm suggesting we add a downside that is sufficiently negative to give players pause. Something that makes the player say "Whoa...too rich for my blood...I'll just go without" in some instances, but that may make other players say "Well, yeah, that's a risk alright, but I HAVE to have this. I'm willing to chance it."
Of course, at this point you're probably going to accuse me of being high again and saying that sucha system is a pipe dream. 
Well, let me outline a general form of the system I'd propose with respect to contraband alone.
1.) Sliced gear and spice become illegal. (duh)
2.) Scan teams are placed at the entrance to every city, including starports and shuttleports. Scan teams are run by local cops (no imperial immunity here). There are also scan teams wandering the streets of town and wandering out in the wilderness.
3.) When you enter town, you are scanned, and checked for contraband. Let's say that, with respect to the starports and shuttle ports, there's still a chance you won't even GET scanned. We'll set that chance to, say, 20%. Each player who does get scannedhas a 10% chance, just on their own, of beating a scan. Each item of contraband that you have on you increases your likelihood of being detected. So, if you've got a single dose of spice, you might make it through. If you're an average player with a full suit of composite armor and six sliced weapons, you probably won't be making it through without getting busted.
4.) When players are caught carrying sliced gear, they are fined initially. Fines start atX credits per illegal item (where X = a number that is ultimately determined to be of sufficient economic detriment to most players when you have 0 for faction standing with the local cops. You also lose 100 faction standing points each time you get caught.
5.) At -500FP, the fines increase toX+Y credits per illegal item. (each increase is designed to be at least 300-500 credits more than the previous level, roughly). This continues until you hit, say, -2000FP standing.
6.) At -2000FP standing, if you fail a scan, you will be attacked by the guards in an attempt to "detain" you. This continues until you hit -5000FP.
7.) When you hit -5000FP, the guards don't even bother scanning you. They just attack you on sight. (pretty much how it works currently)
8.) The guards would have to be tough enough and/or numerous enough that people couldn't just laugh off the scan team. They'd have to give even higher level players a real reason to say "Hmm..maybe I shouldn't attack these guys." Each killed cop gets you an instant -2000FP. Ideally, when you get busted by a scan team, your inclination should be to RUN LIKE HELL rather than stand your ground and fight. If you ran, you'd beat paying the fine, but would still take the negative faction hit for failing your scan.
9.) Smugglers would have varying abilities to beat scans. For example, a smuggler would get a 15% chance to beat a scan at novice. As they climbed the ranks, that chance would increase up to a MAXIMUM of 85%. That's at master level. Smugglers still want a challenge, after all.
10.) If you are a smuggler, you can make it through the scan using your smuggling abilities. If you get busted, you can choose to pay a smaller fine and take the faction point hit, or pay a larger fine than usual and take no faction hits. Either way, the theory is you're bribing the scan team. Either with a small payoff or a big one.
So, what set of choices would this create for you?
A.) Carry sliced gear and go through the hassle and possible danger of being nailed with it when you enter town, in exchange for the SIGNIFICANT bonus you'd have in PvP/PvE.
B.) Say, "No thanks" to sliced gear and travel unimpeded.
C.) Find a smuggler to run your illegal gear through the scan when you go into town.
Now, again, Gabe, since I KNOW you're going to say something like "But that's not a choice!! That means I have to be 4x weaker than my competition who's gonna carry sliced gear!" let me say this. Yes, your competition MIGHT carry sliced gear. But they might also decide "Ah, screw it. I don't want to put up with all the BS from doing it. I'm good enough in combat that I don't need it." This is what I've been getting at. Make the penalties for carrying sliced gear high enough, and it won't be an issue.
And if that idea doesn't appeal to you, here's another one.
Sliced weapons/armor and spice are illegal. Smugglers perform illegal activities. Smugglers get no special weapon cert despite having two combat trees as prerequisites. Therefore, sliced goods are, from here on out, only available for smuggler usage. you slice your gear, and only you can use it. Since smugglers don't get that many combat abilities anyway, they rely on their equipment to get them out of trouble. What's this mean? NO ONE has the advantage in combat that they do now. No one has to worry about "Will my opponent be 4x more powerful than me?" Why? Because only a smuggler carries sliced gear, and we know smugglers are weak as hell in combat if they're pure smugglers. Sure, they can be combat smugglers, but then again, you can take two or three full professions worth of combat abilities, whereas our profession (smuggler) only gives you one tree worth of combat skills. Our sliced gear makes up for the rest. You want the skills and access to sliced gear? Become a smuggler! Live a life of adventure and illegality!
As far as real smuggling goes, we'll deal with a tariff system instead of contraband. So, there's another option. Just have smugglers be the only ones who can use contraband, and we view it as part and parcel to their profession -- their ability to evade and avoid trouble.
Now, if you shoot both of these ideas down, I challenge you to provide a system whereby:
1.) Smugglers are needed or at least highly useful for players to have around.
2.) Consequences are imposed on players for undertaking illegal activities.
3.) The player uses the smuggler to avoid the illegal activity.
If you don't want any of the above, then I guess you really DO just want all benefits and no risks.
electricnomad wrote:
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
This thread is a great example of why I envy those who are not correspondents.
I'm going to just...sit over here in this corner. Counting to ten...thousand. Hopefully it will be enough.
Why?
As you left it, that's a big cop-out.
Let's have some jusification and communication as to why you refuse to respond to this sort of thread.
And let's hear why you would envy the non-correspondents.
Speaking as a former correspondent...I believe Caylin is trying to be diplomatic (which a correspondent should be), and what he really wants to say wouldn't be so diplomatic.
Here's an example that even a simple minded fool can understand =)
Ex #1 Giving Content
Smugglers getting the ability to slice armour for people but the penalty for having it is a small chance of being scanned. Smugglers can help you get past those scans. (a great reward for an inconvenience. People may only use sliced stuff for there PvP or Group hunts. Most PA's have smugglers in them that would be willing to smuggle everyones stuff.)
Ex #2 Taking away content
All resources with an OQ over 700 should be made illigal and anyone carrying them will be scanned and attacked on-site. (No reward and a large inconvenience targeting those with no combat skills)
Both of these examples were taken directly off of the smuggler boards and appeared to get the support many in the community.