Smuggler Archive
Thread: Smuggler missions and why we need them?
JFreeman wrote:
Ideally. We don't want to offer "a delivery mission that only smugglers can take", but rather to offer missions that actually require the use of smuggling skills to complete.
WesBelden wrote:
JFreeman wrote:
We're evaluating that system along with other systems in-game to determine what we can do to make a Smuggling system.
In preface to this question I'll state that I'm not attempting to bring up old differences/troubles, but I feel it has to be asked;
You once stated (in JTL Beta) that the smuggling missions in JTL were smuggling missions and that Smugglers would end up seeing Smuggling missions; at the end of this evaluation process, will whatever is decided upon be more complex and meatier than mere delivery/escort missions of the kind seen in JTL to warrant the illustration of a difference between the two with upper and lower case letters (as bizzare a method of comparison as that may seem)?
JFreeman wrote:
Ideally. We don't want to offer "a delivery mission that only smugglers can take", but rather to offer missions that actually require the use of smuggling skills to complete.
WesBelden wrote:
JFreeman wrote:
We're evaluating that system along with other systems in-game to determine what we can do to make a Smuggling system.
In preface to this question I'll state that I'm not attempting to bring up old differences/troubles, but I feel it has to be asked;
You once stated (in JTL Beta) that the smuggling missions in JTL were smuggling missions and that Smugglers would end up seeing Smuggling missions; at the end of this evaluation process, will whatever is decided upon be more complex and meatier than mere delivery/escort missions of the kind seen in JTL to warrant the illustration of a difference between the two with upper and lower case letters (as bizarre a method of comparison as that may seem
Ohh, no we don't want to add genuine content to the game. That people might enjoy, instead we have gone with the watered down, generic everybody get a mission "noob" terminal.
.........So, in the end we have learned. That they have no intentions of doing anything with Smuggler any time soon. The only thing they have decided is that they are gonna stop promising that they are gonna fix us. Instead, have gone with the plan of never fixing us. Save for a generic mission that anybody can take.
......... As a customer I am very dissatisfied.
"Sir, your order is running a little behind, we expect to make delivery in the next 3 or 4 years, depending on our mood. We also took the liberty of changing what we are shipping you. Yes sir, we know you order car parts, but we thaught pink fuzzy bunnies slippers were better!"
It's a good thing the rest of the world runs more efficiently!
WesBelden wrote:
JFreeman wrote:
Ideally. We don't want to offer "a delivery mission that only smugglers can take", but rather to offer missions that actually require the use of smuggling skills to complete.
That's good to hear
/keeps his fingers crossed that given time the ideal situation turns into a current situation
Edit: I took grammar class with Yoda
Thanks!
Edit 2: Er... and I obviously couldn't afford spelling classes
Message Edited by WesBelden on 08-12-2005 10:43 PM
Sorry man, I do not agree. If thats the future of our missions, and our profession, then I have almost nothing to get excited about.
WillburWright wrote:
Okay. I'm going to come at this from a logical approach.
Smuggler was added into Beta 10 days before release on June 26, 2003.
We were promised that a "revamp" AKA slew of fixes and content would be TOP priority.
What confuses me is: HOW THE HELL WERE THERE MANY JEDI PROFESSIONS ADDED WHENOTHER EXISTING PROFESSIONSNEEDED FIXED?
Star Wars could be described as a three legged stool. Bounty Hunters, Jedi, and Smugglers. (In alphabetical order, neither preferrential treatment nore anything else.)
Now we get no revamp, but instead a trickle of patches? I try to keep a cool head, but COME ON! Look what you did for Jedi. DO THE SAME FOR THE OTHER ICONIC PROFESSION!
Message Edited by WillburWright on 08-12-2005 07:45 PM
You forgot the 4th leg of the stool, the ONLY other iconic profession in the movies! THE POLITICIAN!
THey could do so much stuff with politicians to make them fun...... But I'm 99% sure they won't ever!
Saabotage wrote:
Sorry man, I do not agree. If thats the future of our missions, and our profession, then I have almost nothing to get excited about.
From your two replies to JFreeman's response (just prior to the quoted above), I can only assume that you (at least partly) misinterpreted what's been said as something along the lines of "we're not making these missions restricted to Smugglers" and "We don't want to give you Smuggling missions any more complicated than delivery missions"...
Quite how you concluded that's what was said, I have to say, I have no idea, but there you have it
.What's being said is that they don't want to make the mission a generic delivery mission with one or two tweaks, but want to make something that actually involves us Smuggling by taking action and using skills present within the Smuggler profession (skills that no doubt would need to be introduced along with the missions).
So, that is making the Smuggler content Smuggler specific and it is not just a generic mission.
Of course it’s all nothing until it’s actually in game, but that’s what they’re aiming for as they evaluate what they want to do to accommodate the Smuggler profession's need to Smuggle.
As I've said before "You are a disgrace and a joke."
Have a nice day, and I hope smugglers leave this game by the hundreds.
tralita_tusnami wrote:
listen here jedi, god im not sure why im actualy posting to you being that your a jedi.
Hahahahahaaa! Oh, you are funny.
that entire post im not going to even quote because its not worth my time, is the same rehashed garbage that has been floating around here for over a year. please stop insulting, is it just me or were there post by dev's in here till everyother post was cynical then it stoped? hmmm lets check, yep the more cynical the posting got the fewer and fewer posts by dev's came in.
Nope, your wrong again. You really should do your homework before you start spouting off as though what you say is representative of the community. We have done every angle possible to appease them and none of it has worked. We have been told time an again, to "play nice or we'll take our ball and go home" and even when we have...they stop posting. they ALWAYS stop talking to us, it is the history, it continues today. Stop being naive.
please reread my last paragraph... hell ill bring it here
JediArashi wrote:
tralita_tusnami wrote:
Please consider all this, when you are starving and you begin to look down your nose at the perfectly good boll of soup in front of you because it’s made of wood instead of fine china. The DEV’s are talking to us, telling us is going on, and seemingly willing to overlook all the data and come up with a plan to fix our current situation.
ya i can see where you did EXACTLY as i said people would do. funny, he he. You looked down your nose at a system they COULD IMMPLAMENT because its not up to your fine china standards. You have champaine tates on a beer budget. I know i have a beer budget and im going to be happy with beer as long as its cold when it gets here. the longer YOU delay the process and say its not good enough before even trying it the longer the beer sits around growing bitter. and the longer that goes on the more YOU want. I personaly would LOVE to have a system by the end of next month lets set a date, it took ONE weekend to (im not going to say revamp) Recharge the BH missions. lets give them to the 23 of September thats almost 6 weeks to fully integrate a system to the TEST CENTER servers addcontent and make sure it works, as with the BH system there will undoubted be tweeks, but the longer this is delayed the longer it takes to get those tweeks and longer we sit around here.
Again, you are just proving how disrespectful you are ot this community. Do your research, read what has happened and you will be enlightened. The revamp was total crap. Complete crap. We as a community decided it was best to give them time to do the whole thing right. They were floored and promised that they would work with us to do it right and even thanked us for being so mature about it.
The fact that you actually think something will be on TC in 6 weeks just proves....you know what...I don't even need to say it...
Oh and thanks Laff'ya I appreciate it.
Kelko wrote:
And so forth, yada, yada, yada.....
22June 2004 - GreenMarine summarizes concerns over a contraband and mission system
GreenMarine wrote:
See this link for part 1:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=96114
Part 1 reached over 1200 posts in less than a week. Clearly the smuggler & bounty hunter professions care deeply about the design of any kind of smuggling system. I'm really happy with the level of response. A lot of people who don't normally post are chiming in with their opinion and, in general, the discussion has been civil.
I want to try and distill the discussion down and start to find solutions. Here were the three big issues that turned into long discussions.
Summary 1: The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.
Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:
- Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
- CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.
The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.
What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.
Summary 2: The second major issue revolved around the punishments for being caught with contraband:
- Some players feel that dying isn't enough of a punishment.
- Some players recommended a faction hit.
- Some players feel that storm troopers are too weak.
- Players don't like that only storm troopers scan.
Solution: The solution obviously has several parts. We need to discuss more what the punishments should be. There are a few types of punishment that we can draw from:
- Loss of GCW faction.
- Loss of NPC faction.
- Combat & risk of death.
- Confiscation of the illegal goods.
One possibility might be to make it so that the scanning NPC isn't the NPC that attacks. Instead he "calls for backup" and the backup is relative to the player's level. This brings up the possibility of a group of players using a low level smuggler to spawn lower level faction targets. Thesolution to stopping faction farming of scan spawned NPCs is to prevent them from giving GCW faction. There are many other legitimate ways to gain faction. Even if it seems inconsistant, it does make somesense that the Rebels aren't necessarily going to reward a player for killing troopers just doing their job.
This also means that high level smugglers would be dealing with security forces tougher than your average Stormtrooper.
It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory? They aren't going to like spice abuse much either. Rebel commanders could then have some immunity from scans in their home regions. Naboo's Royal Security Force (a neutral faction) might also scan and have their own forces to deal with violators.
Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.
Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.
This is an issue I need to think about more before I develop a complete opinion.
At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved. In this thread, let's talk about possible solutions and compromises. Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=98219&page=1
22June 2004 - GreenMarine discusses concern regarding Smuggler bounties
GreenMarine wrote:
silversaber wrote:
I mean, how hard is it for you guys to make a NPC that hashit points greater than a Playerfully buffed? That can see through FD? That can go through any wall? That can have twice the firepower than any player can have?
The point isn't to create an insurmountable challenge. We can ensure the PvE smuggling missions will be fun and challenging for all players according to their skill level.
The addition of missions with a visibility/PvP/bounty aspect is to enhance the game for the players who are interested in pursuing that kind of gameplay. It doesn't exclude PvEers from anything but what they want to be excluded from.
silversaber wrote:
So, why are we going to be stuck with lesser missions witha lesser reward?
All due respect, but that's a very loaded statement.The quality of the missions and the quality of the reward will be worthwhile. The only difference is that there is a path for PvPers and that path includes additional rewards. Why? Because of the increased risk. While not every bounty hunter is awesome at his job, some will be. In my original post, I also pointed out that the other punishments will also be more severe. The increased risk doesn't only include the potential PvP.
Visibility decreases over time. There's nothing preventing you from occaisionally taking a high risk mission. If you manage your visibility well, you won't have to be involved in PvP. But you would be walking the line...and getting improved rewards for your increased risk.
silversaber wrote:
No matter how tasty the Devs try make the GCW PvP look, the PK mentality of PvPrs will poison it for the rest of the Players.
This simply isn't true. While you may not enjoy PvP, or you may have had bad experiences, a large number of the player base regularly play PvP. You know it's important for the devs to have a realistic view of the game. It's just as important that you have one.
We make an effort to design systems that appeal to both PvE and PvP players. You have to find a way to compromise your view with that of the PvPers, because they aren't going away, just as you like to remind PvPers that you aren't going away.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=98435&highlight=#M98435
30June 2004 - GreenMarine says he will post a thread on Underworld skills next week
GreenMarine wrote:
Tomorrow let's start a conversation on the underworld skill tree. I think based on the conversations we've had in these first two giant threads, I can come up with a compromise system. But let's worry about hammering out more specific details later (we have a lot of time).
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=100334&highlight=#M100334
28August 2004 - Caylin corners GreenMarine in his Texas office and forces him to acknowledge his whereabouts and vital signs
GreenMarine wrote:
All of the Correspondents are here at SOE-Austin and I was trapped in my office by a large roving pack of them. Smuggler Caylin was at the lead and he was able to corner me for a few minutes discussion. Unfortunately, he was quickly dragged away by Tigger to attend the next part of the conference. I hope to get another chance to touch base with Caylin prior to the end of the conference. He wanted me to post a message saying that I am alive and I do exist. I apologize for not participating on the boards much lately. I've been as busy as a Kuat mechanic on inspection day, with all the JTL development going on. Eep!
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=115912&highlight=#M115912
15September 2004 - Devs announce that despite what players had been told since Beta, slicing weapons has no effect on decay
Thunderheart wrote: Weapons decay with usage; each time you use it, the item decays.When the condition of the weapon reaches 25% of the item's maximum total condition, the weapon’s minimum and maximum damage starts to decay.The item reaches a decay threshold at the 25% mark.
For every 1% below the 25% condition threshold, the weapon’s minimum and maximum damage is decreased by 1%. This usage decay will drop a weapon's effectiveness down to 0.
What you can do when your weapon reaches 25% is to "roll the dice" and try to repair your weapon.It's a long shot, but it is a chance to get your weapon repaired. A weapon repair kit is an old fashioned dice roll chance to repair your weapon. If you "get a good dice roll" and repair a weapon (or have it repaired for you) back above the 25% threshold, the weapon’s initial min/max damage is restored. For smugglers, slicing in no way effects the rate at which a weapon decays, buta sliced weaponwill make the weapon repair even chancier than it already is. Weaponsmiths have a slightly greater chance of repairing a weapon than other professions. Additionally, trying to repair a weapon with less than 25% gets more and more risky with each percentage point and will probably destroy the weapon outright.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=game_guides&message.id=232594&highlight=smuggler#M232594
26 September 2004 - Devs re-announce that the Smuggler Revamp will occur after the Space Expansion
Thunderheart wrote:
The smuggler revamp is still scheduled for "post space."
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Naritus&message.id=196873&highlight=smuggler#M196873
NOTE: Thunderheart's post was a clicky linked to one of GreenMarine's former posts.
26 September 2004 - Devs condemn concern over the historically-shifting Smuggler Revamp date as "silly rumors and conspiracy theories"
Thunderheart wrote:
SdeWndr wrote:
Squatch wrote:
HeHeHe, TH replyed to almost all of the posts, but he skipped right over that one about the Smugglers. Par for the course.
I actually posted a link to this in the Smugglers forums. Your right.. he skipped right by it. I've been waiting to see if he would come back to it or not.
Please stop propagating silly rumors and conspiracy theories. It just isn't true. After JtL, GreenMarine will be going forward with the Smuggler Revamp (schedule unannounced). Early on, one of the main reasons we didn't want to talk about it is for just this reason.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Naritus&message.id=196856&highlight=smuggler#M196856
29October 2004 - Devs announce that Smuggler Revamp will happen after the Combat Upgrade
SOETyrant wrote:
HimFan wrote:
I would also like to add that is was said that after JTL, us smugglers were going to get some love. Now we are looking at after January.
Quoting from the message: " major any before do typically we period testing beta open the be will of phase final>We will put the Combat Upgrade publish on ourTest Centerso all customers have access to it prior to it being published to the Live service."
We are approaching this development carefully and methodically. We are starting small because it will need some focused iteration and testing that simply can't be done in a mass forum. We will try our design and implementation in alpha, and as we see it working we will open it up to ever larger numbers of people, taking feedback all along the way. The design as it exists today will change, possibly radically to make sure we have the fun factor SWG should have.
In the end we expect our combat to be "is to make game play more strategic, more interactive and ultimately more engaging and fun for players of all levels". That is what we are committed to, and this is what you should measure the result against.
And unfortunately non-combat professions will need to wait for this to be complete, since the context of the final Conbat Upgrade will be what sets our bar for the other profession revamps.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=99422&highlight=smuggler#M99422
29October 2004 - Devs affirm thateach of theirprevious promises was true and valid at the moment they were made, but that they did not in fact have the authority to make those promises
SOETyrant wrote:
kgmkiorys wrote:
SOETyrant wrote:
And unfortunately non-combat professions will need to wait for this to be complete, since the context of the final Conbat Upgrade will be what sets our bar for the other profession revamps.
so that is that a statement that our smuggler revamp will occur after thus combat upgrade thing? Time to take sides and feel responsible, Tyrant (or anyone in charge), we've been too much lied or mislead.
From the original message "Once Combat Upgrade is done, we will immediately work on upgrading all the non-combat professions in another series of publishes.".
That paragraph lays out our high level Livedevelopment strategy. I'm sure every time inthe pasta mention was made of something we intended to do it was true -at that moment-. But the team does not set all the priorities for the game and things have changed quickly and often since launch. LucasArts and we are aligned on this development strategy and we are going to make it happen by hook or crook. If anything holds us up or slows us down, we will let the community know.
Combat Upgrade is the basis we need in place before revamping the other professions. And we need all the professions to be solid to build a complete and compelling GCW, because it will affect everyone. We will do all this as quickly as we know how, but it will be high quality first and foremost.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=99424&highlight=smuggler#M99424
26 July 2005 - Devs announce that the "Smuggler Revamp" or new content as they put it will be postponed again.
Tiggs wrote:
Smugglers still can't smuggle.
Since release. Since PRE-release. Since...
Mission terminals, space quests, slicing mini-game, bounty hunters.. the pieces are all out there, just put them together for us! Give me a reason to use my YT-1300 and give me a chance to be interdicted and fight or evade detection with a secret compartment.. And the new loot system is horrible. I was optimistic at first, but the fact that the components don't stack, the rarity of the high end items (ICB, Mandalorian Intraframes, etc.) is insulting.
We are currently focusing on fixing what is currently broke. New features will be move out to a longer term implementation.
Subsequent post: Same date
Chemistrius wrote:
Honestly, this should come as NO surprise to any of you.
SOE has no respect for you as customers, never has and likely never will. For them to even think that they do is an insult to our intelligence.
The entire team cares very much about you the customers and the game. The game is constantly evolving and we need to focus our energy on bug fixes and making the game more fun for a wider audience. That includes the present audience in that. We want to have more players for you to play with and I am sure you want that also. With this comes reducing the scope of our publishes so that we can make sure that publishes are cleaner. This doesn't mean that there won't be changes to professions or other content, it just means that bigger things are pushed out and given the time to be worked on that they deserve.
12 August 2005 - Devs finally let the Smuggler community know that there is no Smuggler revamp coming for the Smuggler profession.
JFreeman wrote:
I can say that we can't really give any specifics about our plans, other than we plan to stop promising a smuggler revamp that we never seem to get around to delivering.
Nezodon wrote:
Lets try and keep it to the questions and make it as constructive as possible so its easier for anyone reading he post to digest so hopefuly we can encourage a red name down to pop in and say something/anything about smuggling and their plans.
It's very unlikely we'd ever do a full profession revamp for smugglers anyway. Instead we're focusing on incremental changes, enhancements, updates.
The Combat Upgrade itself was a change to the Smuggler profession, and the recent slicing changes was another. We're still planning on reviewing the spices: probably not a full fledges "spice revamp", but rather fixes and upgrades to improve the line.
We agree that you need Smuggling Missions. So, you don't need to convince us of that!
In the past, our approach to this has been to design with an eye toward content-driven delivery mechanisms. Now I think we've come to the realization that creating hand-crafted content requires more resources than we can devote to a single profession. So we need a plan-B.
In the same way that Bounty Hunters have a systems-driven source of activity, we've got to look at ways of systemically delivering "smuggler missions" to you.
But I still can't give any details as to when we could deliver this or how it might work.
Enhancing the Smuggler profession is high on our list of priorities.
Enjoy.....
I updated the timeline...
As you can see from the long 2+ year timeline that, other than telling us that we are not getting a revamp, that the devs have not stated anything they have'nt already stated, and we are still in the same spot we were two years ago. I don't count the crappy slicing system they gave us as anything worthwhile but that is just my opinion. I will remain cynical and continue to challenge the Devs and SOE. In short I'll believe it when I see it.
I also have something to say to those who have asked me to stop with my current approach (you know who you are). There is an old saying out there that I was taught and learned at a young age....
"Your actions speak so loudly I can't hear what your saying"
So I say to the Devs and SOE, alot of us are having a real hard time hearing what you are saying.
Message Edited by Kelko on 08-14-200511:33 PM
Message Edited by Kelko on 08-14-2005 11:33 PM
At this point, I feel that it is my duty to ask tralita to get off the backs of every Smuggler in this forum. If you want to voice your opinion so be it, but quit giving every other Smuggler a bunch of crap because they don't feel the same as you is seriously f-ed up on your part. You don't even know who you're talking to half the time.
Message Edited by SmugglinZane on 08-13-2005 10:36 AM
JFreeman wrote:
I like this.
tralita_tusnami wrote:
EVERY ONE HERE IS BLIND, hell i jsut figured it out let me explain:
TRALITA (A SMUGGLER) walks up to a standard mission terminal performs slice (WITH MOLECULAR CLAMPS AND LASER KNIFES BABY) and then turns on the deliver mission, but instead of jsut a standard low pay easy deliverly misson she sees deliverly mission(s) for 50k a pop with a CUT of the deliverly (SLICING LOOT) and sets off to preform the mission, picks up the deliverly and gets a waypoint on another plannet, with the cargo in hand (every single imperial or npc police with in 20 meters will immediatly agro) she heads out to deliver the goods. Is shot at in BESTINE but escapes, and delivers the cargo.
later she takes another mission but slips up and is captured (INCAPED and cargo taken) and is set loose with a warning (3 strikes in 7 days and your out) upon her 3rd strike a bounty mission is placed upon her for 24 IN GAME hours, when the bh incounters her (100 meeters of her)she has 5 minutes to escape to a safe distance of 3000 meeters or off plannet.
THIS SIMPLE SYSTEM USES CONTENT INGAME NOW
and simply doesa few things, allows us to get our own loot, allows lower level BH to hunt other than NPC alowing for intresting match ups, and allows us smugglers to smuggle plane and simple how about that
These are the sorts of things we're looking at now - existing systems we can tie into the (incomplete) smuggling system in order to flesh it out.
i only asked that hay sence they were taling to us that hay be constructive and positive. never said you had to believe what i believe, but posting history threads of rehashed material is not constructive or positive.
tralita_tusnami wrote:
ZANE you wrote this:
"So help me God if I we get another, "What do you want in smuggling" posts. "
how is that positive or constructive? want me to stop posting rebuffs to personal attacks? Ok, but there is a point check how many posts by dev's were made after people started posting grand history threads, and and shouting lier lier pants on fire. thats all the prof i need. the past is the past, yes we have been screwed, MANY times. But lets not let our own egos chase them away.
Im sorry if ive pissed anyone off for wanting a positive outlook. But ive seen how many times in the past months, and every time they post in here people play nice for a time, and then start cramming NEGATIVE non constructive waves there way and they leave. nothing bad just the truth.
Look at that entire post of mine. If you don't realise it's the reality of the situation and par for the course, then we have a serious problem. No offense, do you seriously think you've come up with something that hasn't been discussed in In Concept threads before? And then he comes in here and says "I like this idea", like we haven't been saying this kind of stuff for a VERY long time.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I would really appreciate it if you could stop bagging on others about this stuff. If you wanna say stay on target or please stay constructive, so be it, but do not call people out and do not tell them they're wrong for feeling the way they do.
Message Edited by SmugglinZane on 08-13-2005 12:47 PM