Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)
GKM wrote:
RellikCro thats an idea there....
PvP oriented missions dropped military oriented loot
PvE missions dropped Spice enhancement loot
PvP smugs and PvE smugs can then trade their loot if they want to or put it out on the market. Only consequence for PvP smugglers though is they get on the terms but heck they get first choice of the military loot as well so hopefully they can handle temselves.
I think slicing should stay the same for both PvE and PvPrs but depend on the resources that make the components like crafting.
Message Edited by GKM on 06-22-2004 04:25 PM
So break it up where both mission types have a benefit exclusive to it. Of course Military smugglers could take non-military missions (trying to avoid the pvp/pve tags) but it could also be reversed where the pve smug could also take military missions if they wish. Seems like a good balance and could be workable.
I put in the slicing thing as I was not sure if just a misison difference would be enough of a compromise for the pvp type players for good reward/risk. Plus it would also add in playerbase visibilty to the game for BH Marks without having to re-teach the current base of players but they would have a choice of the best of best slices with the risk of PC Marks.
So break it up where both mission types have a benefit exclusive to it. Of course Military smugglers could take non-military missions (trying to avoid the pvp/pve tags) but it could also be reversed where the pve smug could also take military missions if they wish. Seems like a good balance and could be workable.
I put in the slicing thing as I was not sure if just a misison difference would be enough of a compromise for the pvp type players for good reward/risk. Plus it would also add in playerbase visibilty to the game for BH Marks without having to re-teach the current base of players but they would have a choice of the best of best slices with the risk of PC Marks.
Yeah break it up into military and non-military type smuggling missions, not sure if they should be missions like regular missions or if they should be quests. (most likely both)
I think both sides should have a fair shot at being good slicers but make it depend on time they spend gathering good resources and experimenting to make good tools. My basis of that is I know military types and non-military types that both take pride in their highest slices and they use the best material to make their tools even though it doesn't seem to matter. But perhaps there should be a bit of a infamy gain for slicing not sure how it would work though.
So to break it down:
Military Type Missions =Military type loots and rewards but infamy gained on BH mission terminals
Non-Military Spice Run type Missions = Spice enhancementtype loots (somethign like what janta blood does for buffs)but no infamy gained in such a way to attract the attention ofPC BH's...
Slice = Experimentation added just like normal crafting both non-military and military have a shot at making the best slices
Any comments? I kinda like it
Message Edited by GKM on 06-22-2004 04:44 PM
Message Edited by GKM on 06-22-2004 04:45 PM
Message Edited by Mackle on 06-22-2004 04:49 PM
silversaber wrote:Ipseck wrote:
GreenMarine's compromise seems to be getting a lot of praise, and a little bit of criticism. You know what that means? Its a great compromise.
I think the hardcore pve holdouts are doing alot of stereotyping and generalizing.I may be guilty of this to some extent, but not by much. The PvP players that DONT have a PK mindset is a small minority that are the exceptions the prove my previous points. They have to adopt this mindset, or they would never regularly win in PvP.
What exactly is a PK mindset? Can you describe it for me? I'm not really familiar with the term or even why it would be bad to begin with.They need to realize that there is give and take and to chose their battles.. Truth of the matter is, you have access to everything you need to fullfill all your duties as a smuggler under GM's proposal. Yet that's still not enough. If the pvp content isn't in the upper tier, where do you suggest it be placed?
If I had my way, they wouldnt be in at all. But I think you have guessed this by now. But since GM seems to be adamant about bringing PvP outside the GCW, the only place I would fully accept it is equal to where the PvE is. Not more, and if not less, then equal. The Devs can do what ever it takes to bring the risk and challenge of the PvE encounters to par with the PvP.
Well if I had my way there'd be both a pve and pvp element to it. You can't have totally player driven content and you can't have totally npc driven content. I'm not so totally jaded as to think that player only interaction should be the way to go. You take a very extremist view on it here. You come across as very condescending and spitefull of people who enjoy fighting along side and against other real players. Why is that? It wouldn't be bringing PvP outside of the GCW at all. Contraband at its very heart is an integral part of the GCW. Therefore the people who transport it are, guess what? part of the GCW.It doesn't make sense for it to go anywhere but the top.
Only makes sense to those that PvP. The arrogant mindset of the PvPers that think that PvP is greater than any other type of playstyle is perverbial and never changing.
Are you going to tell me that there are 1 on 1 pve encounters out there that even come close to comparing to a pvp encounter? Its not arrogance in the least. Its experience and knowing what I'm talking about because I've been there. Can you honestly say the same thing? I never once said pve wasn't challenging. It can be very challenging, but (big but) the one thing it always is: PREDICTIBLE. Why go to the work to create the essence of a pvp encounter without the pvp, when we have the real thing right there already? It doesn't make sense!If you want the best of the best, you need to be able to avoid the best of the best, and that doesn't mean NPCs. That means real actual players. Remember folks, this is multiplayer game. Player interaction is encouraged.
And again, you PvPers keep thinking since those that prefer PvE dont like negative player interaction, we dont like ANY player interaction. You keep conveniently forgetting that most players prefer a cooperative and positive player interaction. There IS such a thing as player interaction without having players killing players. But I guess I should save my breath, since you will conveniently forget this fact again in future conversations.
And there YOU go thinking that PvP automatically means negative player interaction. It doesn't. PvP can be very cooperative and engaging, but since you've likely never bothered to try it with a cohesive group, I can't expect you to know that. I'm not stupid. I know that players killing players isn't the only form of player interaction. But if we get our missions from npcs, steal the loot from npc's put said loot in spice and put it on a vendor for someone to buy, and get hunted by npcs... where the hell is our player interaction?
Lets not lose sight of the fact that pvp does not neccessarily mean players killing players. That's another huge leap in logic the pve only folks seem to be making. PvP just means there's a chance you get engaged by another player. Woopdeedoo. So you might get chased by a bounty hunter once a week if you don't manage your profession well. So what happens then? Bh starts shooting at you, you try to burst run away, or jump on your bike and head for the hills. You might get away you might not. At the end you could possibly end up in the cloning center. Do you have any clue how likely it is you'll get a tell from someone who kills you? Slim to none. The worst that could possibly happen is someone decides to kneel on your face for a nice Teabag! screenshot. And what have you lost? A little pride maybe.. but that is the cost of FAILING. What have you gained? The adrenaline rush of being chased by someone who can't be trained, /examined, or lost on a simple elevator trip.
Yes, PvP is tougher, and it always will be. Its not arrogance talking, its the truth. If you want to head up against uber AI why aren't you playing UT2004 against some uber bots or something? PvP and the GCW is designed to be the endgame with SWG. Its been said and been out there in the open for everyone to see since launch. We're here in a multiplayer game, in a starwars universe to be a part of this community. You can't be a part of the community if you hole yourself up doing missions all day with zero player interaction. Go ahead onto the Jedi forum and ask them. They know all about it.
I stand by my first statement: That this is both being praised and critisized means that they have a good starting spot. They're never going to be able to please everyone. Especially those who can't stand the thought of ever being attacked by a real live player.
GKM wrote:
So break it up where both mission types have a benefit exclusive to it. Of course Military smugglers could take non-military missions (trying to avoid the pvp/pve tags) but it could also be reversed where the pve smug could also take military missions if they wish. Seems like a good balance and could be workable.
I put in the slicing thing as I was not sure if just a misison difference would be enough of a compromise for the pvp type players for good reward/risk. Plus it would also add in playerbase visibilty to the game for BH Marks without having to re-teach the current base of players but they would have a choice of the best of best slices with the risk of PC Marks.
Yeah break it up into military and non-military type smuggling missions, not sure if they should be missions like regular missions or if they should be quests. (most likely both)
I think both sides should have a fair shot at being good slicers but make it depend on time they spend gathering good resources and experimenting to make good tools. My basis of that is I know military types and non-military types that both take pride in their highest slices and they use the best material to make their tools even though it doesn't seem to matter. But perhaps there should be a bit of a infamy gain for slicing not sure how it would work though.
Correct, I can see that. I know I was very excited the other night when I had a very good run of slices. I took great pride in the fact I was able to offer such high service to my customer.
Maybe there could still be two types of slices, but both can be done by either side it and it is gained thru Military type loot in the tools used. LIke how weapons can have normal crafted cores but you can also loot better advance cores. Maybe have it so you can loot advance "cores" for one of our tools that would push the slicing limits but would cause you to gain infamy when you used it. And if we are still working on a way to include the playerbase, we could also add infamy to the player that uses it. So you could still take great pride in your slices as currently, you can still add in expermintation to get better slices but have one of the tooks have the ability to have "military advance core" which was stolen from reb/imp/hutt and becaause of that it doesn bring in extra attention.
So to break it down:
Military Type Missions =Military type loots and rewards but infamy gained on BH mission terminals
Non-Military Spice Run type Missions = Spice enhancementtype loots (somethign like what janta blood does for buffs)but no infamy gained in such a way to attract the attention ofPC BH's...
Slice = Experimentation added just like normal crafting both non-military and military have a shot at making the best slices
I agree expermentation needs to be added to the tools.. right now you can get the worse possible resources and still produce the best possible slice. Other part of this I went into detail above
Any comments? I kinda like it
Message Edited by GKM on 06-22-2004 04:44 PM
Message Edited by GKM on 06-22-2004 04:45 PM
Ternque01 wrote:
Guys and gals, please keep it civil around here. The very point of this thread is to discuss solutions. If you have a problem with someone's ideas, point it out. Don't get dragged into whatever mumbo jumbo they are saying.
Just to kindly comment on some of the discussion around here about solutions that call for equal PvE and PvP rewards. GreenMarine stated that PvP is more risky, and therefore deserves greater reward. Just wanted to point that out to some of you people. There is a whole level of intesity in PvP that lacks in PvE. It is a different game than PvE, but the cool thing is that with PvP, it feels like there is more on the line. I think that is pretty damn cool considering making a risk/reward system. In this game you will truly enter something that feels risky, in hopes of getting more reward. Just wanted to throw that out to those who are considerting making PvE and PvP end-game smuggling missions give out equal reward.
Before RellikCro and others start laying into the above paragraph, remember that GreenMarine himself said PvP is more risky, and deserves greater reward. The debate on that is over. I think the vast concensus of smugglers feel the same way. So to make a long story short, I don't think solutions that call for equal rewards of PvE and PvP missions will really work.
Being that the Devs have bit by bittaken the GCW away form the PvE players and made it PvP only, I am going to fight the PvP domination of the onlyportion of the game thats left to me that I lovetooth and nail.
God, I feel like my back is against arock with a wall of bristling spears, each labeled "compromise" surrounding me. Each time one of these "compromises" jab home, I feel that it cuts away a piece of the game from me, untill there is one "compromise" left, hovering above my heart, the Smuggler profession.
Again, this is not entering the PvP/PvE debate, just letting you guys/gals know that such solutions aren't going to fly.
I dunno why I keep around these boards, I think it's because i'm truly sick of being creamed time and time again by combat medics in PvP despite that i travel with doctors and use teamspeak to call for cures. Combat medics add much more to a combat force than they should, and between you and me, I think SOE chooses to keep them strong to quickly kill large battles that could potentially crash a server. Enough on that. I'm not calling for a nerf, just pointing a few things out. Oh yea.. did you know that with havla (food) a cm can throw poisons faster than once every two seconds. That is two large areas stacked two deep in mind poisons in 6 seconds. If used smartly a combat medic can stack two areas, retreat behind their supporitve combat professions, wait for the enemy to finish healing then do it all over again. The result is thousands and thousands in mind damage that happens regardless of how fast a team's doctors can heal. This makes PvP "not fun". Thank you
Duckfat wrote:
I still think that making seperate types of missions for PvE and PvP with different rewards is a mistake. If you develop a different system for each you will generate more of a rift between the two types of play. The game should be designed to accomodate both without seperating them. That is why I believe that the missions should be the same with the same rewards and the same penalties. Instead of having a choice to do PvE or PvP with different rewards and cargo, you should have the same rewards and cargo but change the ammount based on the risk. If you want to take a large risk with the chance of a large penalty in order to make more in less time you are free to do so. On the other hand if you really do not wish to take the risk of PvP you can do less risky missions that have lower penalties but you will have to do more missions to get the same ammount of reward as the high risk person.
Example:
High risk mission = deliver 1000 units of glitterstim component A for a reward of 10 Nym enhanced vibro motors. You may be able to skim 100 units and not get caught. If you do get caught by either a patrol or from skimming you get 100 points of visibility.
Low risk mission = deliver 100 units of glitterstim component A for a reward of 1 Nym enhanced vibro motor. You may be able to skim 10 units and not get caught. If you do get caught by either a patrol or from skimmimg you get 10 points of visibility.
Now say there is a decay to your visibility of 10 a day and you get on the terms if your visibility is 200 or more. The high risk guy will get on if he is caught twice in the same day or three times in two days. The low risk guy can get caught twice a day and still not be on the terms for about two weeks.
This allows everyone to get the same reward, gives them the same opportunity to skim the same loot, and play the same game without having to argue about whether PvP or PvE is more advantaged in the game. The only difference is whether you want to take the high risk to make the faster profit.
Maybe we can work on a way to incorperate both ideas. I can see what you are talking about creating a rift. Just trying to think of ways to give BH's the PC Marks they want, the PvP Smugglers the content they want and the PvE smugglers the content they want.
How would you split the missions up in the mission term so ppl would have a clear understanding which missions could lead to visiblity? Simply saying the large amount ones will not work as that is all subjective to what you think large should be
Ipseck wrote:
the extremist pve folks are really starting to remind me of the elitist test center crowd (not saying all of tc is elitist). They seem to be acting above pvp.. like its something that's below them because they might get their hands dirty or something. They avoid it because they don't want to expose themselves to the horrors of other players shooting at them. well roll your sleeves up folks. being a smuggler isn't about playing polly prissy pants.
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse! 
RellikCro wrote:
Ipseck wrote:
the extremist pve folks are really starting to remind me of the elitist test center crowd (not saying all of tc is elitist). They seem to be acting above pvp.. like its something that's below them because they might get their hands dirty or something. They avoid it because they don't want to expose themselves to the horrors of other players shooting at them. well roll your sleeves up folks. being a smuggler isn't about playing polly prissy pants.I fail to see how this is in anyway constructive, but you are absolutely correct in part of your unconstructive post.. I do not want to explose myself to PvP and what it brings with it. Accept it.
oh sure focus on the one that pokes fun and cracks a smartass joke and not the ones with all the content in em
sure thing caylin, sorry
(/goes back to my opening line)Message Edited by Ipseck on 06-22-2004 05:30 PM