Smuggler Archive

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Ipseck wrote:

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RellikCro wrote:

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Ipseck wrote:
the extremist pve folks are really starting to remind me of the elitist test center crowd (not saying all of tc is elitist). They seem to be acting above pvp.. like its something that's below them because they might get their hands dirty or something. They avoid it because they don't want to expose themselves to the horrors of other players shooting at them. well roll your sleeves up folks. being a smuggler isn't about playing polly prissy pants.

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I fail to see how this is in anyway constructive, but you are absolutely correct in part of your unconstructive post.. I do not want to explose myself to PvP and what it brings with it. Accept it.

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oh sure focus on the one that pokes fun and cracks a smartass joke and not the ones with all the content in em

sure thing caylin, sorry (/goes back to my opening line)

Message Edited by Ipseck on 06-22-2004 05:30 PM

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You should go back and reread most of my posts I have, with a few others, been constructively working on a solution to the issue at hand. I was actually universally ignoring all posts that were not constructive and were just going back to the old debate but I let my guard down on that one. For that I apologize. I will continue to work on constructive solutions and ignore posts that want to bring back the old pve/pvp debate.

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RellikCro wrote:

Maybe we can work on a way to incorperate both ideas. I can see what you are talking about creating a rift. Just trying to think of ways to give BH's the PC Marks they want, the PvP Smugglers the content they want and the PvE smugglers the content they want.

What I was thinking was that there would still be the powergamers who will want to make the fast buck and not grind out their profits in the lower missions. There are also the pure PvP smugglers that will do the high end missions for both the greater reward and the chance that a BH will try to kill them. It is true that this system would require more time to play for a PvEer but at least there is no difference in what they are getting just the amount they get from a single mission.

How would you split the missions up in the mission term so ppl would have a clear understanding which missions could lead to visiblity? Simply saying the large amount ones will not work as that is all subjective to what you think large should be

You could still use the same types of terminals that seperate low level missions from high level missions. The real difference is that the rewards andcargo be the same and not create a need for a player to do the high risk missions to get a specific item. This system is especially beneficial because it would allow a player to jump back and forth and not be tied into a specific style of play. If you were to do it the other way and get caught you would automatically be on the PvP terms. With this system if you look at the previous example a player could go middle of the road and do high risk missions until he got caught once then lay low in the low level missions for a week until that error in visibility started to decay enough.

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Duckfat wrote:

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RellikCro wrote:

Maybe we can work on a way to incorperate both ideas. I can see what you are talking about creating a rift. Just trying to think of ways to give BH's the PC Marks they want, the PvP Smugglers the content they want and the PvE smugglers the content they want.

What I was thinking was that there would still be the powergamers who will want to make the fast buck and not grind out their profits in the lower missions. There are also the pure PvP smugglers that will do the high end missions for both the greater reward and the chance that a BH will try to kill them. It is true that this system would require more time to play for a PvEer but at least there is no difference in what they are getting just the amount they get from a single mission.

How would you split the missions up in the mission term so ppl would have a clear understanding which missions could lead to visiblity? Simply saying the large amount ones will not work as that is all subjective to what you think large should be

You could still use the same types of terminals that seperate low level missions from high level missions. The real difference is that the rewards andcargo be the same and not create a need for a player to do the high risk missions to get a specific item. This system is especially beneficial because it would allow a player to jump back and forth and not be tied into a specific style of play. If you were to do it the other way and get caught you would automatically be on the PvP terms. With this system if you look at the previous example a player could go middle of the road and do high risk missions until he got caught once then lay low in the low level missions for a week until that error in visibility started to decay enough.

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I see what your getting about about using the already existing code to determine the level of missions, but what if a Master smuggler with lets say Master Pistoleer or MCH with a pet out wanted to do some missions but retain PvE enviroment.

Perhaps kinda like how we get NPC/Critter missions now we could incorperate a system that would identify the visibility risk vs the non-visiblity risk.

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GreenMarine wrote:

What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.

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At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved. In this thread, let's talk about possible solutions and compromises. Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.

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I will try to give a solution, but first I must point out something that strikes me. If a smuggler gains visibility by "smuggling" or just carying "illegal" items around, but a non-smuggler does not. . . I would then expect smugglers to give there "illegal" items to non-smugglers to carry(smuggle) these items around for them, so as to avoid visibility, and therefore the non-smuggler becomes the smuggler.

As a solution, I would make ALL players apt for visibility, but give SMUGGLERS better chances and skills to keep there visibility down, and other non-smugglers be more susceptable to visibility. In this way we will keep smugglers smuggling, and not actually take away from their profession.

Lets make this revamp all it can be and a model for all future revamps. Lets not skimp here, lets make smugglers the one's who smuggle.

Besides that,I would really like to thank you GM, and the smuggler community on the effort that hopefully will REALLY be taken into consideration and will bear much fruit.

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RellikCro wrote:

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Ipseck wrote:

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RellikCro wrote:

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Ipseck wrote:
the extremist pve folks are really starting to remind me of the elitist test center crowd (not saying all of tc is elitist). They seem to be acting above pvp.. like its something that's below them because they might get their hands dirty or something. They avoid it because they don't want to expose themselves to the horrors of other players shooting at them. well roll your sleeves up folks. being a smuggler isn't about playing polly prissy pants.

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I fail to see how this is in anyway constructive, but you are absolutely correct in part of your unconstructive post.. I do not want to explose myself to PvP and what it brings with it. Accept it.

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oh sure focus on the one that pokes fun and cracks a smartass joke and not the ones with all the content in em

sure thing caylin, sorry (/goes back to my opening line)

Message Edited by Ipseck on 06-22-2004 05:30 PM

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You should go back and reread most of my posts I have, with a few others, been constructively working on a solution to the issue at hand. I was actually universally ignoring all posts that were not constructive and were just going back to the old debate but I let my guard down on that one. For that I apologize. I will continue to work on constructive solutions and ignore posts that want to bring back the old pve/pvp debate.

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Ipseck wrote:

hehe that's the thing.. your solution takes developer time and work.. my solution is as simple as an attitude change lol. If no one was afraid of pvp, we wouldn't need a 'solution'.

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How far you want to go with this? If computers were never made, we wouldn't be having this issue either

But we have, we did and people are... so I guess we will have to work with that

The Infamous Caylin Borealis - First Master Smuggler on Bria
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse!
:The Ghost with the Most:

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RellikCro wrote:

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GKM wrote:

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So break it up where both mission types have a benefit exclusive to it. Of course Military smugglers could take non-military missions (trying to avoid the pvp/pve tags) but it could also be reversed where the pve smug could also take military missions if they wish. Seems like a good balance and could be workable.

I put in the slicing thing as I was not sure if just a misison difference would be enough of a compromise for the pvp type players for good reward/risk. Plus it would also add in playerbase visibilty to the game for BH Marks without having to re-teach the current base of players but they would have a choice of the best of best slices with the risk of PC Marks.

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Yeah break it up into military and non-military type smuggling missions, not sure if they should be missions like regular missions or if they should be quests. (most likely both)

I think both sides should have a fair shot at being good slicers but make it depend on time they spend gathering good resources and experimenting to make good tools. My basis of that is I know military types and non-military types that both take pride in their highest slices and they use the best material to make their tools even though it doesn't seem to matter. But perhaps there should be a bit of a infamy gain for slicing not sure how it would work though.

Correct, I can see that. I know I was very excited the other night when I had a very good run of slices. I took great pride in the fact I was able to offer such high service to my customer.

Maybe there could still be two types of slices, but both can be done by either side it and it is gained thru Military type loot in the tools used. LIke how weapons can have normal crafted cores but you can also loot better advance cores. Maybe have it so you can loot advance "cores" for one of our tools that would push the slicing limits but would cause you to gain infamy when you used it. And if we are still working on a way to include the playerbase, we could also add infamy to the player that uses it. So you could still take great pride in your slices as currently, you can still add in expermintation to get better slices but have one of the tooks have the ability to have "military advance core" which was stolen from reb/imp/hutt and becaause of that it doesn bring in extra attention.

So to break it down:

Military Type Missions =Military type loots and rewards but infamy gained on BH mission terminals

Non-Military Spice Run type Missions = Spice enhancementtype loots (somethign like what janta blood does for buffs)but no infamy gained in such a way to attract the attention ofPC BH's...

Slice = Experimentation added just like normal crafting both non-military and military have a shot at making the best slices

I agree expermentation needs to be added to the tools.. right now you can get the worse possible resources and still produce the best possible slice. Other part of this I went into detail above

Any comments? I kinda like it

Message Edited by GKM on 06-22-2004 04:44 PM

Message Edited by GKM on 06-22-2004 04:45 PM

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RellikCro wrote:

I see what your getting about about using the already existing code to determine the level of missions, but what if a Master smuggler with lets say Master Pistoleer or MCH with a pet out wanted to do some missions but retain PvE enviroment.

Perhaps kinda like how we get NPC/Critter missions now we could incorperate a system that would identify the visibility risk vs the non-visiblity risk.

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RellikCro wrote:

Maybe have it so you can loot advance "cores" for one of our tools that would push the slicing limits but would cause you to gain infamy when you used it. And if we are still working on a way to include the playerbase, we could also add infamy to the player that uses it.

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Hey thats a good idea for having slicing give the smugglers visibility. The question is will PvE'rs feel left out if they can not do this.Maybe the infamy gained is minimal so PvE'rs can use these advanced "cores" a little bit but too much and boom they are on the terminals.

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JohboBocal wrote:

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GreenMarine wrote:

What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.

---

At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved. In this thread, let's talk about possible solutions and compromises. Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.

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I will try to give a solution, but first I must point out something that strikes me. If a smuggler gains visibility by "smuggling" or just carying "illegal" items around, but a non-smuggler does not. . . I would then expect smugglers to give there "illegal" items to non-smugglers to carry(smuggle) these items around for them, so as to avoid visibility, and therefore the non-smuggler becomes the smuggler.

I do not believe that the visibility will be based around the chosen profession but more around the item in question. Therefore if a sliced weapon does not give your average joe visibility it would not give a smuggler visibility either. I am hoping that what GM means by this is that only the smuggled cargo for the missions (the locked box) will result in visibility. I am also hoping that this cargo (the locked box) is not movable from the smuggler's inventory (although any skimmed components may be). This will keep the smuggler from giving it to someone else to smuggle or hiding it in a droid that will prob continue to be unscanable in the datapad.

As a solution, I would make ALL players apt for visibility, but give SMUGGLERS better chances and skills to keep there visibility down, and other non-smugglers be more susceptable to visibility. In this way we will keep smugglers smuggling, and not actually take away from their profession.

I continue to disagree with the attempt to give all players visibility. It is already apparent that smugglers cannot agree on being forced into PvP and put on the BH terms yet those same people seem to not have a problem putting everyone else on the BH terms and requiring them to pay smugglers to stay out of PvP.

Lets make this revamp all it can be and a model for all future revamps. Lets not skimp here, lets make smugglers the one's who smuggle.

Besides that,I would really like to thank you GM, and the smuggler community on the effort that hopefully will REALLY be taken into consideration and will bear much fruit.

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GKM wrote:

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RellikCro wrote:

Maybe have it so you can loot advance "cores" for one of our tools that would push the slicing limits but would cause you to gain infamy when you used it. And if we are still working on a way to include the playerbase, we could also add infamy to the player that uses it.

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Hey thats a good idea for having slicing give the smugglers visibility. The question is will PvE'rs feel left out if they can not do this.Maybe the infamy gained is minimal so PvE'rs can use these advanced "cores" a little bit but too much and boom they are on the terminals.

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3 words...Smuggler Reputation System!

Sorry to keep bringing this up but I just think it has alot of merit in both game mechanics and roleplaying.

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Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

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Ipseck wrote:

hehe that's the thing.. your solution takes developer time and work.. my solution is as simple as an attitude change lol. If no one was afraid of pvp, we wouldn't need a 'solution'.

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How far you want to go with this? If computers were never made, we wouldn't be having this issue either

If humans never learned how to make fire, the tigers would probably rule the world.

But we have, we did and people are... so I guess we will have to work with that

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RellikCro wrote:

I see what your getting about about using the already existing code to determine the level of missions, but what if a Master smuggler with lets say Master Pistoleer or MCH with a pet out wanted to do some missions but retain PvE enviroment.

Perhaps kinda like how we get NPC/Critter missions now we could incorperate a system that would identify the visibility risk vs the non-visiblity risk.

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Message Edited by SBRD0C on 06-22-2004 09:08 PM