Smuggler Archive
Thread: Depending On Smugglers
StGabriel
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:17 pm
#157
Smugglers did not make the Crackdown! Smugglers did not cause you to be inconvenienced by having to wait out a contraband search.
Do smugglers want more contraband content similar in nature to the crackdown or not?
If you do not then with respects to contraband content I'm not sure that I'm even disagreeing with you.
StGabe.
Do smugglers want more contraband content similar in nature to the crackdown or not?
If you do not then with respects to contraband content I'm not sure that I'm even disagreeing with you.
StGabe.
StGabriel
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:19 pm
#158
That's right WEAPONSMITHS/ARMORSMITHs for our WUK/AUK kits (unless you put the skill points into taking those professions as a smuggler)! Just so we could improve your armor/weapons by a CHOICE that you made.
As I have already pointed out, many, many times, the dependency here is simply one of money. You don't have to waste time with scans, lose arbitrary options, etc., to use WUK's and AUK's, you just have to find the cheapest seller and buy something. On your own time. With money you earned playing Smuggler content.
StGabe.
As I have already pointed out, many, many times, the dependency here is simply one of money. You don't have to waste time with scans, lose arbitrary options, etc., to use WUK's and AUK's, you just have to find the cheapest seller and buy something. On your own time. With money you earned playing Smuggler content.
StGabe.
DRWolfe
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:21 pm
#159
StGabriel wrote:
Do smugglers want more contraband content similar in nature to the crackdown or not?
If you do not then with respects to contraband content I'm not sure that I'm even disagreeing with you.
StGabe.
We do want more contraband content, but you are disagreeing with us in that you want it to not affect the player base at all. It must affect the player base in order to be content and make Smugglers useful to the community as all other professions are.
StGabriel
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:22 pm
#160
If you don't custom order from a WS/AS you at least travel to their respective vendor to buy your stuff. You sit and watch Entertainers to heal BF or buff your mind. You sit in med centres waiting for someone to heal your wounds. All that stuff can take up to 10 mins each from your Swordsman playing TIME. Why would it be so hard to meet up with a Smuggler for 1 minute to give him your contraband and take it back at the destination?
Just playing today I have already made about 15 shuttle hops.
Medics and entertainers are 100% player service professions. Furthermore I can obtain their services at my leisure. And players already do voice a bit of resentment about these services. There is a line between fun and non-fun dependencies and arguably these professions are already rather close to it.
I can buy enough weapons and armor at one time to keep me stocked for literally months. Just a while back I read a post by a guy who bought enough armor, weapons, chef food, etc., to be stocked for literally a year of game time (he was worried about the incoming crafting changes).
StGabe.
Just playing today I have already made about 15 shuttle hops.
Medics and entertainers are 100% player service professions. Furthermore I can obtain their services at my leisure. And players already do voice a bit of resentment about these services. There is a line between fun and non-fun dependencies and arguably these professions are already rather close to it.
I can buy enough weapons and armor at one time to keep me stocked for literally months. Just a while back I read a post by a guy who bought enough armor, weapons, chef food, etc., to be stocked for literally a year of game time (he was worried about the incoming crafting changes).
StGabe.
mka
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:23 pm
#161
StGabriel, you seem to be opposing a contraband system in general.
I'll have to ask you: What good is a Smuggler profession without any form of contraband? We most certainly don't want to remain the wannabe hackers / drug dealers we corrently are.
StGabriel
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:24 pm
#162
We do want more contraband content, but you are disagreeing with us in that you want it to not affect the player base at all. It must affect the player base in order to be content and make Smugglers useful to the community as all other professions are.
I don't want it to be a fundamentally un-fun game item for other players, that's all.
If you can show me a system where contraband is complementary to other players experiences and adds to them instead of simply adding a tradeoff of not being vastly weaker versus being susceptible to random annoyances then I'm all ears.
StGabe.
I don't want it to be a fundamentally un-fun game item for other players, that's all.
If you can show me a system where contraband is complementary to other players experiences and adds to them instead of simply adding a tradeoff of not being vastly weaker versus being susceptible to random annoyances then I'm all ears.
StGabe.
Solo4114
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:26 pm
#163
mka wrote:
This seems to me like a slightly abridged version of the BH/Jedi debate. To put it bluntly: 'Hey Devs. pleeaaase give our profession content, but if you add content to another profession which will have a negative impact on me I'm going to cry!'
I'd just like to point out the misconception (not in your statement, mka, but in the concept that you're quoting) that increasing difficulty or presenting a player with choices is somehow a denial of content.
Quite the contrary, I'd argue. Creating new choices in the game ADDS content. It adds distinction between players. It adds nuances to gameplay. It adds differentiation between playstyles. And most importantly, it adds CHALLENGES -- something this game often severely lacks as a direct result of catering to too many whiny "No nerfs!" players.
When the panic shot change came through, I wasn't happy about it, but I said I'd reserve judgment until I could see the combat changes as a whole. Now, I'm not happy that we're going to have to wait longer to see a fully developed combat system and that the devs are basically leaving it in a half-baked state for now, but I'll definitely say that if the game becomes more fun with a nerfed panic shot, I'll have no problems.
Not all nerfs are bad nerfs. Remember that sometimes being hit with a NERF bat is preferable to being hit with a Louisville Slugger. Does the panic shot change deny me content? Not exactly. for starters, I don't even have the skill yet. On top of that, I haven't played the game much at all recently because, well, it's boring these days. But even if I were playing and using panic shot, there's nothing wrong with removing a system that allows a player to effectively become invulnerable or dish out INSANE amounts of damage in a sitting. Panic-shot/low-blow/last-ditch combos with pistoleer speed are a serious problem. Even without pistoleer speed mods, it's still pretty tough. Personally, I think a better change could've been worked out, but on the whole, the CONCEPT behind the change isn't bad -- we don't want players incapacitating high-end mobs with impunity. If you're gonna take on that howling gurreck, you'd better well have made the right choices in weaponry, armor, skills, and underwear (and possibly funeral arrangements). And you'd better be ready to get your ass killed. Or bring along some buddies and gang up on the sucker.
By the same token, adding chef foods was not a nerf for us. Chefs badly needed attention to become a viable part of the game world. Where the devs screwed up is in not giving us something to compensate for the lost business. But I don't begrudge the chefs their revamp, even though the practical result was that smugglers lost a lot of business as a result.
Likewise, adding a contraband system would not be a true nerf on players. It's not singling out a player or group of players and saying "You guys now LOSE power, but everyone else is left alone." It's taking a screwed up, boring, hum-drum system and throwing in a little excitement. Look, the crackdown, as I said, was a JOKE. NO ONE felt the sting of the Empire. Three random stormtroopers wander in and start spouting propaganda in a casino, then attack some entertainer? Oooooh...an iron fist indeed.
But think how the crackdown COULD have been cool if it had been implemented PROPERLY. If every two blocks you saw a stormtrooper squad...if around town, you saw phalanxes of troopers patrolling or scout walkers circling the city, if at each entrance, you had to go througha checkpoint, that would've been a REAL crackdown.
What I'm asking for is something similar, but not tied to the GCW. I'm asking for a LEGAL crackdown, but one based on the local law enforcement groups. FedDub, CorSec, SecFor, etc. should be the guys scanning for spice, hot weapons/armor, and taxed goods. Getting into a city via spaceport, shuttleport, or on foot should leave you with a high probability of being scanned, if not an absolute certainty. Once you're inside the city, random patrols should occasionally check you as well. The same goes for the wilderness. If you run into a group of wandering CorSec dudes, they should check you out and see if the local magistrate has a bench warrant out for you.
If you get busted, you should lose standing with these guys and pay significant monetary fines. If you get busted too often, you should get shot at. If you get busted WAY too often, you should get shot at on sight. And if you go to another planet where no one knows you, you should be perfectly safe. After all, the law doesn't want you when you cross the county line.
Now, tell me that wouldn't add some nuances, some excitement, some CONTENT to the game as a whole, not just for smugglers? Sure you'd lose the ability to run around with your uber-1337 sliced gear and your h3ll4 c001 spices with impunity. But so what? You'd be facing challenges! You'd have to dodge down alleys avoiding the gunfire of the local constabulary! You'd have to find small player cities where there IS no law! You'd have to lam it to another planet where the local cops aren't after you! THAT's excitement! THAT's a challenge! And THAT would be fun to me.
StGabriel
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:28 pm
#164
I'll have to ask you: What good is a Smuggler profession without any form of contraband? We most certainly don't want to remain the wannabe hackers / drug dealers we corrently are.
I've already given examples.
To repeat, let's look at contraband. If I have to deal with contraband every time I make a shuttle up (i.e. 15 times today) that is just going to be a huge timesink that isn't fun by any stretch. However, if smugglers are able to spend the time themselves doing smuggling and thereby provide me with rare and valuable items, I'd be all over that. I would then give them credits and items that I had earned AS A SWORDSMAN for things they did with their time AS A SMUGGLER.
And it wouldn't bother me at all that they are able to get things that I cannot. I'm simply saying that the Smuggler content should be somewhat sandboxed for Smugglers.
With loot, I suggested that Smugglers get a significant bonus to loot drops for their group. This would make Smugglers very desirable for a much greater range of groups than maglocks do and would provide them content that doesn't bring up arbitrary limitations for other players with certain forms of content.
StGabe.
I've already given examples.
To repeat, let's look at contraband. If I have to deal with contraband every time I make a shuttle up (i.e. 15 times today) that is just going to be a huge timesink that isn't fun by any stretch. However, if smugglers are able to spend the time themselves doing smuggling and thereby provide me with rare and valuable items, I'd be all over that. I would then give them credits and items that I had earned AS A SWORDSMAN for things they did with their time AS A SMUGGLER.
And it wouldn't bother me at all that they are able to get things that I cannot. I'm simply saying that the Smuggler content should be somewhat sandboxed for Smugglers.
With loot, I suggested that Smugglers get a significant bonus to loot drops for their group. This would make Smugglers very desirable for a much greater range of groups than maglocks do and would provide them content that doesn't bring up arbitrary limitations for other players with certain forms of content.
StGabe.
Ipseck
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:30 pm
#165
StGabriel wrote:
No one ever complains about needing a commando and/or some riflemen and/or heavy swordsmen or doctors, etc etc. when they go krayt hunting. People accept it. Its a fact of life - the combination dots and DPS and the healing/rezzing is a great help to the group.
Right, and that is a great example of complementary interaction between characters. Needing to group and find certain profs for a certain type of content is great. Having your options cut in some arbitrary fashion, having random downtime, etc., is not "complementary" though. It's very different having different characters with different abilities and having to put up with nuisance content simply because you do not have certain abilities.
StGabe.
so accessing mag seal containers isn't 'accessing a certain type of content' ? Hmm not quite sure I'll agree with that, seeing as how they're semi-rare.
Enhancing weapons is complimentary to your profession
Enhancing armor is complimentary to your profession
Providing spice that can get you out of a pickle is complimentary to your profession
Allowing you to get from one point to another without being caught with those sliced items is complimentary to the entire group.
Can you get by without all the above? You most certainly can, or else they would be listed as 'neccessary' and not 'complimentary'.
No one is proposing cutting your options, they're just proposing making them a tad more interesting. Actually right now they're not even really 'options'. That would imply there was some sort of downside invovled. Right now, there is no downside to getting your armor and weapons sliced. Its an improvement, no matter what, with no real consequences. The other 'option' is to.. not get it sliced and have.. no real consequences.. So.. lemme see here, which would you choose?
I have a feeling I'm getting caught up in current game play here where you're directed towards the future, so let me just say, No one wants a system that griefs 90% of the player population. Certain things, do however, need to be implemented that actually make things in this game difficult. We're not interested in sadling you with needing a smuggler to hop from one shuttle to the next or to be able to loot a nightsister. No one wants that. What we do want is to be able to bring you better things in the way of smuggling, better spices, better resources for creating things, but at the cost of those betterments being so rare and sought after, that we actually have a purpose in this game. We don't want to be the gatekeeper to your content, but we do want to make that conent more enjoyable when you get there because of your uber glitterstim or poison drenched mind poisoning, sliced scythe that no law abiding citizen should be in possession of.
StGabriel
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:31 pm
#166
Creating new choices in the game ADDS content.
I absolutely agree with this.
I simply suggesting that some choices, while content, are not fun or not useful to the game and am suggesting focusing on those types of choices that are indeed fun.
Having the choice of:
Be 4 times weaker than yourcompetitors OR spend a lot of your game time searching for Smugglers, imprisoned, etc.
Is not a fun choice.
StGabe.
I absolutely agree with this.
I simply suggesting that some choices, while content, are not fun or not useful to the game and am suggesting focusing on those types of choices that are indeed fun.
Having the choice of:
Be 4 times weaker than yourcompetitors OR spend a lot of your game time searching for Smugglers, imprisoned, etc.
Is not a fun choice.
StGabe.
JTGAlpha
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:32 pm
#167
Also, Gabe, your assertions that slicing is necessary aren't logical. Just because your pistol isn't doing as much damage as it was before doesn't mean you NEED slicing. It means you need more guys. And if your complaint is you can't solo it...sorry, no sympathy. You DO NOT need slicing in this game to advance. You DON'T. You can take a Krayyt with unsliced weapons and armor, it's just more difficult to do, and takes more guys. Slicing will still be around if you REALLY want it, but it's a choice you have to make.
And what I'M advocating is, turn UP the value of slice AND turn UP the penalty for having it. Make the reward worth the risk. Will PvP'ers have to have sliced weapons? Maybe. But ya know what, you DON'T have to PvP to advance. In fact PvP doesn't help ANY of your stats go up (except faction points, if it's a faction fight). So how do you NEED slices to advance?
You don't. This is just a functionally fixed mindset. "If I have a lesser gun, I'm a lesser player, ergo I must have every advantage." That Krayyt dragon will die NO MATTER WHAT. ALL PvE content is a matter of time, patience and tactics. Always will be. An extra 35% to your speed or damage won't change that.
mka
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:34 pm
#168
Solo4114 wrote:
Now, tell me that wouldn't add some nuances, some excitement, some CONTENT to the game as a whole, not just for smugglers? Sure you'd lose the ability to run around with your uber-1337 sliced gear and your h3ll4 c001 spices with impunity. But so what? You'd be facing challenges! You'd have to dodge down alleys avoiding the gunfire of the local constabulary! You'd have to find small player cities where there IS no law! You'd have to lam it to another planet where the local cops aren't after you! THAT's excitement! THAT's a challenge! And THAT would be fun to me.
100% agreed. That would also be my definition of "fun".
StGabriel
Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:35 pm
#169
Also, Gabe, your assertions that slicing is necessary aren't logical.
Quite to the contrary.
Suppose that with a dial-up connection you have a delay of 10 minutes for any action in Star Wars Galaxies and with some higher bandwidth solution you can play regularly.
That extra bandwidth is necessary in a practical sense. It is possible to play without it, but it is simply not practical to do so.
Such with slicing, it is not practical to PvE or group for high-end stuff when you are 3-5 times weaker than the other players.
StGabe.
Quite to the contrary.
Suppose that with a dial-up connection you have a delay of 10 minutes for any action in Star Wars Galaxies and with some higher bandwidth solution you can play regularly.
That extra bandwidth is necessary in a practical sense. It is possible to play without it, but it is simply not practical to do so.
Such with slicing, it is not practical to PvE or group for high-end stuff when you are 3-5 times weaker than the other players.
StGabe.