Smuggler Archive
Thread: Depending On Smugglers
Thanks, guys! I'll say this. If I ran the zoo...well, it'd be a very different zoo.
I just think the playerbase has grown complacent with the lack of consequences. Which is funny to me because they're always clamoring that the game has no content, isnt' challenging, etc., etc., etc. I think that, whine though they might, if the developers just said "Sorry guys. We're putting consequences and hard choices into the game." people would eventually grow to enjoy them.
It's like when you play a first person shooter BEFORE you learn what the "god mode" cheat is. It can be exciting, challenging, interesing, intense, etc. But once you figure out that you just have to punch "iddqd" and you go invincible, it can still be fun but the challenge is gone. It's less about survival and intensity, and more about where the hell is that last level key. Entertaining for a diversion, but not very fun.
I think when people say "We want content!"often what they're saying is "We want a challenge!" This conflicts directly with other things they say like "OMG!! Nerf the [insert skill/weapon/item/power here]!!! It's totally unfair!!" Finding the right level of challenge is important, but in terms of interplayer relationships, all the professions should be on a level playing field, and choosing how to proceed with your character's development should be about making decisions and sacrificing options in favor of what you like best.
The old AD & D system did this perfectly. You could kick ass with weapons and wear armor as a fighter, but lose any ability to cast spells. Or you could be weak physically and not wear armor or wield most weapons but kick ass with spells as a wizard. Or you could be decent with some weapons, wear light armor, but be sneaky and gain other abilities as a thief. Or you could cast defensive spells, wear heavy armor, but be limited in your weapon choice and proficiency as a cleric.
When you force a player (yes, FORCE) to make choices like that, you force them to pick what they like BEST, and thereby make them bond with their character much more. This game does that to a degree, but the way it often plays out is that EVERYONE takes the first few levels of Wizard, the battleaxe skills from Fighter, and the healing skills from Cleric to be "teh uber". Professions that are clearly more powerful than others lead to a stagnation of the playerbase as well as a homogenization of the game. Remember when EVERYONE had CH? That sucked. It made gameplay no fun. Just wait 'til everyone has a metal pet instead. It'll be the same thing.
See? Again, players contradict themselves. "Everyone having a pet makes this game po ke mon wars or Pet Wars, not Star Wars!" But in the next sentence, they say "We should have droids instead!" What the hell? Is your problem that you don't like fuzzy pets instead of metal pets? Or is your problem that everyone is powergaming their way to homogeneity?
If the devs took a hard line and said "Nope. Sorry. We know you don't like it, and you can post hundreds of posts about this, but rightnow, the game is severely screwed and needs fixing. You say our changes aren't fun? How much fun is it to do the exact same thing that every other player does? Where's the diversity?" we might have a REALLY interesting game. I'm still pretty dubious that the devs will do that, though.
I was giving you the best case scenario. For weapon slicing VK's are the WORST case scenario. VK's are unique in that there are damage bonuses for using them which makes a damage slice less useful. Of all the combat professions no other one has this bonus. Furthermore, TKA's are already speed capped making a speed slice useless.
Mitigation and toughness are irrelevant to the computation (and you have computed mitigation incorrectly, but oh well). If you have a mitigation that reduces damage by a factor of X, a toughness that reduces damage by a factor Y and a resistance that reduces damage by Z then your damage taken is:
damage_take = initial_damage * X * Y * Z
Consider when Z is .1 (90% armor) and when Z is .33 (67% armor):
damage_taken (.1) = initial_damage * X * Y * .1
damage_taken (.33) = initial_damage * X * Y * .33
damage_taken (.33) / damage_taken (.1) = (initial_damage * X * Y * .33) / (initial_damage * X * Y * .1)
damage_taken (.33) / damage_taken (.1) = .33/.1 = 3.3
You are still taking 3.3 times more damage even though you consider mitigation and toughness. This happens because all of these bonuses are multiplicative.
If you just consider armor there is the potential for this 3.3 difference. In practice this comes up a lot. High end armor requires high slicing on maxed out composite and it is definitely non-trivial to get 67 resist and very difficult if even possible to get much higher. At high end play, this 330% advantage on armor alone is incredibly real and incredibly important.
Meanwhile, the 153% weapon advantage IS more variable. I gave a best case scenario although this scenario tends to be appropriate for only 5 profs: swordsmen, pikemen, BH's, commandos and carbineers (those that are not speed capped using specials). All other combat profs will get damage slicing which will bump their damage by 35% invariant of speed and other variables. TKA's are the only prof that will see a smaller gain because of their unique damage bonuses.
So in practice, at high end play we see an advantage of 3.3 * 1.35 or 3.3 * 1.53 for all profs outside of TKA. That is HUGE. An advantage of 4 times is like having the PvP reduction when your opponent does not. There is no way to compete with another high end player when they have slicing and you do not.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 03-26-2004 04:06 PM
Gabriel....
Throw out all the calculations you want, bro. Knock yourself out.
Cuz you know what? You're missing a VERY important fact. In fact I can't believe you're missing it. We've said it in so many words, but you're not hearing it.
You say "slicing is necessary" because "of the the power swing it provides". Right? But you're wrong. That power swing only makes PvE go by FASTER. You don't need it. And guess what Gabe...all dev content right now is PvE. So you can get through it all just fine with an unsliced weapon. It'll be more dificult and slower but you can do it. I did it. I didn't use a sliced weapon for months in this game. I still don't wear armor.
The ONLY place where EVERY edge you can get is necessary is PvP...but ya know what? There are NO leaderboards. There are NO battlefields at present. There are NO winners or losers in PvP. Sure there's winning and losing individual encounters...but there's no progress. So winning and losing PvP in NO way gates your progress in ANYTHING.
Ergo, slicing is NOT necessary to advance your character or complete any goals save PvP goals.
And I'll be frank, I don't find this very "fun". Why should I be penalized just for not having a regular smuggler groupy? Why should I not be able to access a significant portion of loot when I solo?
I could agrue that I don't find it very "fun" either that I'm penalized without WS and AS guildies to 'function' properly as a combat profession. Yet noone complains about that. Why, you might ask. Because they're part of the game economy since the game launched. Smugglers were supposed to be a part of the economy too (besides slicing and drugs). Now that they're trying to figure out how this part should look like people say that they don't want Smugglers to be an essential part of their gameplay. I don't think they realize that if they got their will they would shaft all the hopes and wishes of a good chunk of their fellow players.
This seems to me like a slightly abridged version of the BH/Jedi debate. To put it bluntly: 'Hey Devs. pleeaaase give our profession content, but if you add content to another profession which will have a negative impact on me I'm going to cry!'
And no, you're not really offering a sugesstion, you're merely voicing your concern that you don't want to / don't have the time to interact with Smugglers in your regular gameplay. Which is really not a problem in itself, but if you don't interact with Smugglers you should miss out on certain aspects of the game. Yet, putting crates of spice on the Bazaar and being a slice monkey isn't my definition of 'interaction'.
StGabriel wrote:
It'd all come down to a question of what was worth more to the player.
I respect that this is your goal, and I think that new options in the game ARE good, however you have to see that slicing is nowhere near being something about which you can even question "what's worth more to me" as it simply provides to large a benefit. Again, if slicing were giving maybe a 10% edge to your character I think that the sorts of stuff you are suggesting are more reasonable and palatable. When I slice and you don't and that means I basically win by default, that is not a "tradeoff".
Would you rather have slicing contraband with vastly nerfed slicing or no contraband? Not that this is necessarily the choice you have to make, but I think that for your argument to work it boils down to something like this. There is no tradeoff as long as slicing is so powerful at to be absolutely necessary for all higher end players (which is where slicing currently is).
Slicing is simply not a viable choice for a "tradeoff" right now. That is a primary point which I think you have to deal with in dealing with my discussion here (and which no one has done so far). A desire, in general, to have tradeoffs in the game does not make this work.
I want tradeoffs too, but ones that make sense and add to the collective game and do not simply detract from it. Fun tradeoffs that make the game better are those where choosing to be strong in one area makes you somewhat weaker in another area. Contraband scans, as proposed so far and as implemented, do NOT make one weaker in any area they simply make one
vulnerable to random downtime and fines none of which are "Fun" game dynamics. I am proposing shifts to better sorts of weaknesses that give Smugglers a role without introducing random downtime and arbitrary limitations to other players. That's the thing really, the difference between some arbitrary constraint and one that really makes sense and actually adds to the playing experience. Not looting magseals and having to waste time to switch to covert . . . are both arbitrary penalties that don't add fun to the game. Better to look for more complementary tradeoffs.
JTGAlpha wrote:
Gabriel....
Throw out all the calculations you want, bro. Knock yourself out.
Cuz you know what? You're missing a VERY important fact. In fact I can't believe you're missing it. We've said it in so many words, but you're not hearing it.
You say "slicing is necessary" because "of the the power swing it provides". Right? But you're wrong. That power swing only makes PvE go by FASTER. You don't need it. And guess what Gabe...all dev content right now is PvE. So you can get through it all just fine with an unsliced weapon. It'll be more dificult and slower but you can do it. I did it. I didn't use a sliced weapon for months in this game. I still don't wear armor.
The ONLY place where EVERY edge you can get is necessary is PvP...but ya know what? There are NO leaderboards. There are NO battlefields at present. There are NO winners or losers in PvP. Sure there's winning and losing individual encounters...but there's no progress. So winning and losing PvP in NO way gates your progress in ANYTHING.
Ergo, slicing is NOT necessary to advance your character or complete any goals save PvP goals.
Agreed.
And MAN do I hate that changes seem to be dictated by PVP, which itself is fundamentally meaningless, and in which only a very few people actually particupate. Because of all the changes that have been made due to PVP concerns, PVE content has become as feeble as an old lady. Nobody was supposed to solo Fort Tusken. No two-man group was supposed to take down a Krayt. But the Devs dropped the ball by attempting to balance PVP, which ended up screweing up the balance with PVE. It has hurt the game in a major way.
Where can a group of 20 well-armed, well-prepared, dedicated combat professionals go and feel a challenge in SWG?
You can count the places on one hand.
So JTG is dead on - you're making a PVP argument where it doesn't need to be. PVP arguments have only hurt the game so far, andthe ideas you have been espousingin this thread would hurt Smugglers.
StGabriel wrote:
Again, if slicing were giving maybe a 10% edge to your character I think that the sorts of stuff you are suggesting are more reasonable and palatable. When I slice and you don't and that means I basically win by default, that is not a "tradeoff".
Would you rather have slicing contraband with vastly nerfed slicing or no contraband? Not that this is necessarily the choice you have to make, but I think that for your argument to work it boils down to something like this. There is no tradeoff as long as slicing is so powerful at to be absolutely necessary for all higher end players (which is where slicing currently is).
OMG. Must not have read Solo's posts... Anyway, it should be just the opposite of what you're saying.
If you get only a 10% boost on your weapon or armor from slicing (negligible), and there is serious consequences to having the work done, noone will have it done. Just not worth it. You won't be any less effective and you don't have to worry about the authorities. In this instance, you might as well throw the whole thing out the window.
If the boost is a 15-35% , and this improvement is illegal (which it is), with no consequences, it's a freebie and not really illegal. No problem making the choice to get the slice. More effective and despite the illegality of the action, no detrimental effect.
If it is treated correctly as an illegal and punishable thing, you have a serious CHOICE to make, as has been pointed out repeatedly. Get the boost and be more effective but hounded by the authorities, or do not get the boost, being less effective, and do not worry about the authorities. This is how it should be.
This is the time of the Empire, for crying out loud! Harsh, oppressive, intolerant of anything illegal!
Sheesh!
If you want to come and make suggestions for the Smuggler profession, don't make suggestions that make us more ineffectual and you won't get such negative responses. I'm surprised you get any slices after this, unless the smugglers are unaware of this forum or just don't care.
(Wow, this has been my most vocal post yet. Please excuse.
)Message Edited by DRWolfe on 03-26-2004 05:06 PM
Not true. Try taking 3.3 times more damage from a krayt and see how well you tank it.
Consider this argument for another game, EQ. The Flowing Black Silk Sash was the THE premier item for fighters (at least when I played). All it did was give a 25% increase to speed and it was worth hundreds of bucks on EBay. Now you're saying that such bonuses are just trivial and don't mean anything?
And I think a LOT of players would greatly disagree with you about PvE and PvP content. On the Swordsman forum we tend to get more concerns about PvP content than PvE content.
You could make half a dozen other threads with similar headlines, i.e. 'Depending on Armoursmiths', 'Weaponsmiths making our weapon is taking away from our gameplay' etc...
Except that I've said specifically said how these other professions are different. When I go to an armorsmith I give them MONEY and not TIME. Money that I have earned being a Swordsman.
You're thinking too much in terms of the CURRENT system. Yes, under the current system, anyone who goes up against a guy who has a sliced gun is at a huge disadvantage. But that's because there's no reason NOT to have a sliced gun. OF COURSE everyone will have sliced gear in the current climate. There's no reason not to.
And unless slicing is to be greatly nerfed this will always be true as a 3-5 times multiplier on your abilities is simply too HUGE. Putting a potential of being delayed or fined won't change this.
You want "real" penalties and I have yet to see any that actually fulfill this "tradeoff" criteria you want. A tradeoff is something that makes you better in one way and worse in another. A random delay, etc., is not such a tradeoff. Slicing becomes an issue of: "I get this bonus because I'm willing to put up with random downtime, etc.".
Let's look at another game mechanic, armor. A good tradeoff for armor is something like encumbrance where using better armor fundamentally limits your abilities in another area. A random chance to lose 10-30 minutes of your time now and again for using armor is NOT a good tradeoff.
F you were able to set the balance point properly, IF you could set the system up so that the penalties and possible consequences for carrying sliced gear were stiff enough that players really had to make a serious choice as to whether to use them, you'd have a workable system.
And what exact penalties are you suggesting to offset items that multiply your combat abilities by 3-5x? Are these true tradeoffs or simply random nuisances?
Maybe you have some great system worked out that actually fulfills what I am asking for. But then you wouldn't really be disagreeing with me, you'd have simply met and bypassed the concerns I have put forth in this thread.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 03-26-2004 05:06 PM
Why then is it a big deal to take a smuggler along when heading to a cave where you know mag seal containers reside?
Message Edited by Ipseck on 03-26-2004 02:07 PM
Right, and that is a great example of complementary interaction between characters. Needing to group and find certain profs for a certain type of content is great. Having your options cut in some arbitrary fashion, having random downtime, etc., is not "complementary" though. It's very different having different characters with different abilities and having to put up with nuisance content simply because you do not have certain abilities.
StGabe.
It's like arguing with my wife! There's no way to explain it so he'll understand!
Smugglers did not make the Crackdown! Smugglers did not cause you to be inconvenienced by having to wait out a contraband search. You have to wait no matter if you have any contraband or not. Carry sliced equipment or don't, it doesn't matter, you'll have to wait anyway!
Slicing can't be nerf'd to be made illegal with penalties, or there will be no slicing as it won't be worth it. Something illegal has to be worth the penalties!
Argh again!
StGabriel wrote:
Except that I've said specifically said how these other professions are different. When I go to an armorsmith I give them MONEY and not TIME. Money that I have earned being a Swordsman.