Shipwright Archive
Thread: SPACE LOOT SYSTEM NEEDs BIG TIME CHANGE ASAP...PLEASE!
sbob
Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:12 am
#105
As an asside just an intresting idea for RE adjustment would be that when you RE items have it do 2 things. First create an item that takes the best of all the stats from the items put into the RE tool. And then create a limited use Schematic that adds the RE % bonus to it. OR at least have this option for the SW. Could be a good mix of both worlds since the person who provided the items get the balanced out item which if they were to impliment a more critical flaw aspect of droped loot would give them a better item to use and would also give the SW something more to offer other than just a shot at the Firespray part. Of course if you get the disk from a RE no schematic could be made sort of a trade off. Again just an idea.
Coran_Sienar
Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:04 pm
#106
Rhysen wrote:
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Well, we can agree to disagree, Rhysen. And when I mentioned solo groups, I used the word "could" not "can." Perhaps I ask too much fine distinction in English grammar on your part, but which one of those is past tense?
What it looks like to me is that you want to eliminate your competition. Dabblers would cut into your sales so you want to keep the resource requirements high. Loot also cuts into your sales, so you want that nerfed, too. Just be honest about it.
As for "enjoyment"...who exactly are you to tell someone how they should enjoy the game? Dabblers have quite a lot of fun dabbling. The business simulation aspect may appeal to you, but it doesn't for a lot of people.
Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 01-05-2005 10:51 AM
Yes, you did ask too much. It's quite irrelevant whatincome aperson was capable of generating. "WAS" does not have anydirect bearingon their ability to generating income "now".Currently space is slightly more profitable, in a purely credit sense, than ground missions. And a lot more appealing due to fewer repetitive actions. Sure you blow up ships repeatedly. But it's not hitting the '1' key repeatedly in front of a lair.
And it's not 'dabblers' I'm trying to prevent. It's "turning a single resource spawn into a stock of products that lasts months like Weaponsmith/Armorsmith/Droid Engineer for every single person with 10 resource lots, nevermind the people running 40-100 resource lots" I'm trying to prevent. Tell me Doc...
How long does your stockpiles of high quality Reactive Gas last?
Yep. Asking for politeness from certain people is going too far. Asking people to rethink and redirect their invective that isbased upon their own faulty interpretation of what was said is going too far. And asking for any sort of meaningful discourse with you when all you're interested in is securing your own position is right out there along with it, isn't it?
Ever think to consider that the major source of income for most combat professionals has shifted from ground to space missions? The comparison was made between the optimal rates for ground missions versus space missions. The space missions still yield less credits. Now, try to think of the larger picture about what the effect is upon what a new player can afford versus what a veteran player can afford, and you'll find that "WAS" is relevant to this discussion. But then again, I guess I'm going too far again by asking you to actually remember some high school-level economics courses.
Now, tell me why you shouldgive ahoot that people can stockpile the resources for a longer time period when spawns of resources happen regularly? That total hooey about resource quantities being the only way that shipwrights can compete doesn't count. There are other factors such as marketing, pricing, and gaining customer loyalty to which you're blinding yourself. I know of several shipwrights who offer a discount of 10% for each lot that a player will lend to them. Do you, in your wildest imagination, think that you can possibly compete with the sort of loyalty that engenders? Sure, they *may* buy a really great chassis with optimal mass from you. But who do you think will get the sales of munitions and other expendables that are really the bread and butter of any Shipwright? Do you really think that they'll give a Quenker's tail about how you collected millions of resources of a recent spawn?
You're trying to defend a house of cards. Lesser resource requirements will equal less time spent collecting them and more profit for shipwrights as a whole. Shipwright products are not as dependent on quality of resources as other professions because of the quantities required in the schematics. Lesser resource requirements will also increase the stratification of shipwrights because of the fact that resource quality may be weighted to a higher degree.
And as for that little jibe about my being a Master Doc... I make about a 90%return on salesfor buff packs with full factory automation. Take a wild guess at which crafting professionhas more free time to have fun and explore in this game.
Rhysen
Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:11 pm
#107
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Yep. Asking for politeness from certain people is going too far. Asking people to rethink and redirect their invective that isbased upon their own faulty interpretation of what was said is going too far. And asking for any sort of meaningful discourse with you when all you're interested in is securing your own position is right out there along with it, isn't it?
Ever think to consider that the major source of income for most combat professionals has shifted from ground to space missions? The comparison was made between the optimal rates for ground missions versus space missions. The space missions still yield less credits. Now, try to think of the larger picture about what the effect is upon what a new player can afford versus what a veteran player can afford, and you'll find that "WAS" is relevant to this discussion. But then again, I guess I'm going too far again by asking you to actually remember some high school-level economics courses.
Now, tell me why you shouldgive ahoot that people can stockpile the resources for a longer time period when spawns of resources happen regularly? That total hooey about resource quantities being the only way that shipwrights can compete doesn't count. There are other factors such as marketing, pricing, and gaining customer loyalty to which you're blinding yourself. I know of several shipwrights who offer a discount of 10% for each lot that a player will lend to them. Do you, in your wildest imagination, think that you can possibly compete with the sort of loyalty that engenders? Sure, they *may* buy a really great chassis with optimal mass from you. But who do you think will get the sales of munitions and other expendables that are really the bread and butter of any Shipwright? Do you really think that they'll give a Quenker's tail about how you collected millions of resources of a recent spawn?
You're trying to defend a house of cards. Lesser resource requirements will equal less time spent collecting them and more profit for shipwrights as a whole. Shipwright products are not as dependent on quality of resources as other professions because of the quantities required in the schematics. Lesser resource requirements will also increase the stratification of shipwrights because of the fact that resource quality may be weighted to a higher degree.
And as for that little jibe about my being a Master Doc... I make about a 90%return on salesfor buff packs with full factory automation. Take a wild guess at which crafting professionhas more free time to have fun and explore in this game.
Attempting to use the past income potential of a person in a discussion involving the current income potential of a personwas, at best, attempting to support your position without knowledge of the actual situation. For which I gave you an 'out' by providing (admittedlyin a rather biting manner) knowledge of the current situation. But when you made evident you were fully aware of the current situation,at best, it'd bedisingenuous. But in all probability intentionally misleading in an attempt to misrepresent the current situation for the purposes of arguing for further boosts to space loot. At the cost of the Shipwright profession. And just between you, me and everyone else on the board...I'm not a particularly pleasant guy towards people attempting to lie to gain something at my cost.
I think I've made it clear why extending the stockpiles of resources is bad for any crafting profession. The lower the resource requirements, the greater the surplus of stock that builds up on every server. As long as people maintain their supply, there is very little reason for a customer to seek another source for the item. Why bother investing the time to look for another source when the one they already know of has a huge supply of them. Especially if their playtime is limited. Who's going to waste a significant portion of their availible playtime vendor shopping without having a reason to do so? Not many. And whether or not their current supplier has something in stock is one of the primary reason why they'll look elsewhere.
As for the 'jibe' about you being a Master Doctor...what jibe? If you buy a 100k lot of 950+ OQ Reactive Gas, how long will it last you? And attempting to call Doctor a crafting profession is laughable. Doctor has crafting elements. But those elements are NOT the primary function of the profession. Aside from the required crafting grinding to reach Master Doctor, it's completely possible to be a Doctor without ever crafting a single item. You can buy buff packs/medicines from another Doctor and still perform the primary function of the profession: Healing/Enhancing stats. That cannot be said about a real crafting profession, whose primary function is to craft a specific kind of item. But with that said, why don't you be honest here Doc? What would be your likely reaction if Meatlumps began dropping +2000 all stat, 3hr buff dispensers usuable by anyone?
If your reply is anything but "Pitch a fit", I can honestly call you a liar right now.
Graxul
Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:31 pm
#108
Well I'm a smuggler and about the only thing i'm good for is slicing weapons and armor or selling faction points. Spice is pretty much useless now and doesn't even come close to chef food and doctor buffs that have no downtime or downer. One fix which might be a bit radical is to allow smugglers to slice player crafted shipwright equipment to make them capable of being reverse engineered with other loot that is of the same level. Granted this would be the crappy odd numbered loot but even they have some good stats like in mass. This would allow shipwrights to make components geared toward one or two specific stats...like recharge, mass, yaw, pitch, roll, reactor drain. Players would then buy the specialized equipment for reverse engineering purposes. Take them to their local slicer to make them reverse engineerable. So that way they can mix specialized crafted components with regular loot of the same level. They would in turn return to the shipwright to get their gear reverse engineered for a price. An earlier poster mentioned he charges 10k per level of component to be reverse engineered...to mecharging 5-10k per level of loot reverse engineeredsounds reasonable. Shipwrights need to get away from reverse engineering items for free in hopes of getting a kuat fragment. If you want plenty of loot to re just hop into space for 30 min every day or two and kill tier 1 or 2 ships you'll have plenty of loot to reverse engineer and yes they drop kuat fragments just as well as level 10 items at no cost to you. You can even sell the nice re equipment you make for pure profit as well...just at a higher cost than your crafted goods.
Also some facets of shipwright components are under utilized. For instance for very light mass ships its often better to get reinforced armor of a lower level than they are certed for, than to get mass reduced armor of armor that they are certed for. Some pilots like myself sacrifice total power for reduced mass on reactors so they can equip larger guns and shields. I scrimp on every thing on my ship to get the best performance possible. Sure there are some uber loot out there but a lot of the uber loot has its drawbacks which we attempt to fix through reverse engineering...that shipwrights don't charge for even though there is high demand for it. I horde equipment in my bank, my houses, my yt-1300 untill i can find the right combination of equipment to get reverse engineered. Shipwrights could make a decent living by simply collecting loot from duty missions, reverse engineering it themselves and selling it for priceswell above what you sell your crafted equipment for.
I like the JTL expansion and I find it hard to pry myself away from it long enough to level on the ground. Hunting for good loot is fun and when I was a master shipwright in beta that was my favorite part of the profession. Theres plenty of pilots out there that prefer getting their money by fighting in space rather than on the ground. No buffs to deal with and the added bonus of having fun trying to squeeze as much high level gear into your ship that you can. You get money per ship you kill, faction points if you go overt, cash bonuses for duty missions of which I primarilydo destroyblack sun missions. What loot you want you keep what parts you don't want I either sell or give to shipwright friends of mine. To me I make a pretty good living as a pilot so a fee on reverse engineered equipment wouldn't be a problem if its reasonable. Everybody pays smugglers for slices for armor and equipment why should reverse engineering be any different.
The beauty of reverse engineering in the devs eyes is that sure some equipment will be more powerful than player crafted...but to make the item truly better you have to go through a shipwright to make it more "uber". Why not take advantage of the demand like slicers and smugglers have and charge for reverse engineering components...theres no shame in it. A shipwright has to make some cash somehow. And if a slicer or master smuggler can slice player made ship components to make the equipment capable of reverse engineering then like many of the weaponsmiths and armorsmiths out there you could hire a slicer or master smuggler to slice the components for you to sell in your shop. As they say if you can't beat em join em. Then the odd numbered crap loot could be made much more useful with specialized player made reverse engineerable components.
Kalano
Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:47 pm
#109
For those who say loot was nerfed by those who cried nerf. How much loot is dropped in ground? is it equal or is ground dropping more? I say its actually better at dropping in space than ground. how much ground loot is actually useful? Oh yeah, i love them cdef weapons and that ugly colored hat. oh yeah, real usefull. How usefull is space loot? all of it is usefull, some much more than others, some just plain crap and if used, the person is not thinking right, but can be used in reverse engineering so, it is still usefull even if it is a small amount. Hey, how much do you get from the junk vendors from the ground loot? How much you get from the chassie dealer in space loot?
Loot wasn't nerfed because we ask it, well, in not the way many claim now. I remember complaints that people had to much loot, had no where to put it, and unable to do a dang thing with it except SW for the lower end loot.
Did you honestly think that every kill should drop loot? Maybe the did that at first to get people in space, and moving fast to master instead of waiting for enough SW to come along and start supplying parts? Think before accusing everyone of everything before standing back and looking at the whole picture, not your side of the monitor screen.
sbob
Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:18 pm
#110
Actualy the bit with slicing would be a cool adition and add some more stuff for smuglers to do though not much. Maybe make it so that the loot could be only RE'ed and crafted can be sliced. Could help make a bit of a change between the stuff that drops and is made. And once somethig has been RE'ed then can be sliced as well maybe. Always thought that smuglers could have a great job in space and hopefully that is something that will come up soon. Who knows maybe even have a crackdown in sapace or blocades over some planets implimented at some point in future that smuglers help with as well. sorry off on a tamgent.
Kalano
Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:18 am
#111
Slicing on any ship part would be throwing a bone only. It will never make smuggler anymore valuable at all. Smugglers need content and revamp, not more bones. Any profession being given bones just means it is not a great profession from the design stand point and really needs a big time look at making it on par with the rest by the devs.
Rhysen
Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:28 am
#112
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Well, we can agree to disagree, Rhysen. And when I mentioned solo groups, I used the word "could" not "can." Perhaps I ask too much fine distinction in English grammar on your part, but which one of those is past tense?
What it looks like to me is that you want to eliminate your competition. Dabblers would cut into your sales so you want to keep the resource requirements high. Loot also cuts into your sales, so you want that nerfed, too. Just be honest about it.
As for "enjoyment"...who exactly are you to tell someone how they should enjoy the game? Dabblers have quite a lot of fun dabbling. The business simulation aspect may appeal to you, but it doesn't for a lot of people.
Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 01-05-2005 10:51 AM
Yes, you did ask too much. It's quite irrelevant whatincome aperson was capable of generating. "WAS" does not have anydirect bearingon their ability to generating income "now".Currently space is slightly more profitable, in a purely credit sense, than ground missions. And a lot more appealing due to fewer repetitive actions. Sure you blow up ships repeatedly. But it's not hitting the '1' key repeatedly in front of a lair.
And it's not 'dabblers' I'm trying to prevent. It's "turning a single resource spawn into a stock of products that lasts months like Weaponsmith/Armorsmith/Droid Engineer for every single person with 10 resource lots, nevermind the people running 40-100 resource lots" I'm trying to prevent. Tell me Doc...
How long does your stockpiles of high quality Reactive Gas last?
Chiwawa wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
...And any crafter realizes that once past the grinding required in the profession to make an item, the one of the primary factors determining sales is supply. Quality is a lesser factor....
I totally disagree, quality is everything, of course you need to maintain SOME stock, but so long as items are available most of the time the quality will bring them flocking.
You can disagree with it. But it's the truth.Currently spawned on Chilastra is:
Xadeism, High Grade Polymetric Radioactive
DR=90, PE=938, OQ=862
Quadolle, Quadranium Steel
CR=593, CD=498, DR=914, HR=905, MA=303, OQ=999, SR=858, UT=828 ***
Because of these spawns, 2 Master Shipwrights are capable of producing high end missile with the exact same characteristics. There is no differentiation between the products the 2 Shipwrights are capable of producing. Of course one of them might experiement Max Damage after getting the quantity per pack tomax while the other experiements Min Damage. Most likely unless asked to do so specifically by a customer, though, both will get the quantity tomax and experiment Min Damage repeatedly to produce the best product then run a schematic for it. 2 Shipwrights offering the exact same product. What major factor of the competition is left between them? Whichever one runs out of resources to make the missiles first (yes, location/advertising/loyal customer base are also factors. But those aren't quantifiable).
That's what I mean. We all have the same cap on the quality of the items we can produce, based on the resources availible. I'm certain someone on Chilastra prolly has some950+ OQ/PE radioactive/steel to make the absolute best missiles possible on Chilastra. But anyone with those same resources can do the same. And quite honestly, given the knowledge of what the upper limits are on quality by the general server population, the quality difference between a person using stockpiled 950+ OQ/PE radioactive/steel versus a person using the current spawned radioactive/steel isn't going to make a significant enough difference to sway a significant portion of the population to the 1st person's shop (requires significant investment on the time of the 1st person simply to get word out that he's making missiles of that caliber). To be perfectly honest, the difference between a Master Shipwright producing Proton III Torpedos and a xxx4 Shipwright producing Proton III Torpedos isn't going to makea significant enough difference in the final product to make choosing between one or the other anything beyond:
- Who has the missiles currently in stock
- Whose shop is closer
Providing they're both using resources of similiar/same quality. And that's despite the Master Shipwright having more experimental points to spend. The difference will be who runs out of resources first. Who can't sustain that quality the longest. Lowering the resource requirements works against this by stretching the stockpiles of those with superior harvesting abilities/credits longer. And when the product stockpiles begin building up, the market stagnates. The higher resource requirements works against that by keeping the product stockpiles smaller. And by making people think before running off high quantities of products because it will consumea vast quantity of their high quality resources to do so.
Practical example:
With my current stockpiles of the current spawns of steel/HGPR, I can run off about 500 Proton III missile packs (a supply likely to last for several weeks, if not months). But do I really want to consume 500,000 of good steel to do so, reducing my ability to supply other high quality products that also require steel?
Message Edited by Rhysen on 01-05-2005 04:16 PM
Coran_Sienar
Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:17 am
#113
Rhysen wrote:
Attempting to use the past income potential of a person in a discussion involving the current income potential of a personwas, at best, attempting to support your position without knowledge of the actual situation. For which I gave you an 'out' by providing (admittedlyin a rather biting manner) knowledge of the current situation. But when you made evident you were fully aware of the current situation,at best, it'd bedisingenuous. But in all probability intentionally misleading in an attempt to misrepresent the current situation for the purposes of arguing for further boosts to space loot. At the cost of the Shipwright profession. And just between you, me and everyone else on the board...I'm not a particularly pleasant guy towards people attempting to lie to gain something at my cost.
I think I've made it clear why extending the stockpiles of resources is bad for any crafting profession. The lower the resource requirements, the greater the surplus of stock that builds up on every server. As long as people maintain their supply, there is very little reason for a customer to seek another source for the item. Why bother investing the time to look for another source when the one they already know of has a huge supply of them. Especially if their playtime is limited. Who's going to waste a significant portion of their availible playtime vendor shopping without having a reason to do so? Not many. And whether or not their current supplier has something in stock is one of the primary reason why they'll look elsewhere.
As for the 'jibe' about you being a Master Doctor...what jibe? If you buy a 100k lot of 950+ OQ Reactive Gas, how long will it last you? And attempting to call Doctor a crafting profession is laughable. Doctor has crafting elements. But those elements are NOT the primary function of the profession. Aside from the required crafting grinding to reach Master Doctor, it's completely possible to be a Doctor without ever crafting a single item. You can buy buff packs/medicines from another Doctor and still perform the primary function of the profession: Healing/Enhancing stats. That cannot be said about a real crafting profession, whose primary function is to craft a specific kind of item. But with that said, why don't you be honest here Doc? What would be your likely reaction if Meatlumps began dropping +2000 all stat, 3hr buff dispensers usuable by anyone?
If your reply is anything but "Pitch a fit", I can honestly call you a liar right now.
I'd collect them and sell them. Much like I do with loot. I'd also make aquite aprofit with it. But then again, perhaps I'm simply more adaptive than you are. You can call me a liar if you admit that you're a closed-minded, selfish buffoon. Fair enough?
Coran_Sienar
Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:31 am
#114
Kalano wrote:
1. Did you honestly think that every kill should drop loot? 2. Maybe the did that at first to get people in space, and moving fast to master instead of waiting for enough SW to come along and start supplying parts? Think before accusing everyone of everything before standing back and looking at the whole picture, not your side of the monitor screen.
1. Yes, I do think that every kill should drop loot, unless it pays out a credit chip large enough to make it not matter that it doesn't. Space missions don't pay as well as ground missions and loot is what equals things out.
2. No. There were dozens of people on each server who had stockpiled millions upon millions of units of resources and mastered Shipwright on the first day JtL came out. However,if it was truly the developer's intent to decrease the amount and quality of loot because Shipwrights were more readily available, it still means that loot was nerfed to cater to Shipwrights.
Rhysen
Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:32 am
#115
Liar
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
Attempting to use the past income potential of a person in a discussion involving the current income potential of a personwas, at best, attempting to support your position without knowledge of the actual situation. For which I gave you an 'out' by providing (admittedlyin a rather biting manner) knowledge of the current situation. But when you made evident you were fully aware of the current situation,at best, it'd bedisingenuous. But in all probability intentionally misleading in an attempt to misrepresent the current situation for the purposes of arguing for further boosts to space loot. At the cost of the Shipwright profession. And just between you, me and everyone else on the board...I'm not a particularly pleasant guy towards people attempting to lie to gain something at my cost.
I think I've made it clear why extending the stockpiles of resources is bad for any crafting profession. The lower the resource requirements, the greater the surplus of stock that builds up on every server. As long as people maintain their supply, there is very little reason for a customer to seek another source for the item. Why bother investing the time to look for another source when the one they already know of has a huge supply of them. Especially if their playtime is limited. Who's going to waste a significant portion of their availible playtime vendor shopping without having a reason to do so? Not many. And whether or not their current supplier has something in stock is one of the primary reason why they'll look elsewhere.
As for the 'jibe' about you being a Master Doctor...what jibe? If you buy a 100k lot of 950+ OQ Reactive Gas, how long will it last you? And attempting to call Doctor a crafting profession is laughable. Doctor has crafting elements. But those elements are NOT the primary function of the profession. Aside from the required crafting grinding to reach Master Doctor, it's completely possible to be a Doctor without ever crafting a single item. You can buy buff packs/medicines from another Doctor and still perform the primary function of the profession: Healing/Enhancing stats. That cannot be said about a real crafting profession, whose primary function is to craft a specific kind of item. But with that said, why don't you be honest here Doc? What would be your likely reaction if Meatlumps began dropping +2000 all stat, 3hr buff dispensers usuable by anyone?
If your reply is anything but "Pitch a fit", I can honestly call you a liar right now.
I'd collect them and sell them. Much like I do with loot. I'd also make aquite aprofit with it. But then again, perhaps I'm simply more adaptive than you are. You can call me a liar if you admit that you're a closed-minded, selfish buffoon. Fair enough?
Coran_Sienar
Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:40 am
#116
Then you're a closed-minded, selfish buffoon. There. Happy?
Rhysen wrote:
Liar
I'd collect them and sell them. Much like I do with loot. I'd also make aquite aprofit with it. But then again, perhaps I'm simply more adaptive than you are. You can call me a liar if you admit that you're a closed-minded, selfish buffoon. Fair enough?
Rhysen
Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:01 am
#117
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Then you're a closed-minded, selfish buffoon. There. Happy?
Rhysen wrote:
Liar
I'd collect them and sell them. Much like I do with loot. I'd also make aquite aprofit with it. But then again, perhaps I'm simply more adaptive than you are. You can call me a liar if you admit that you're a closed-minded, selfish buffoon. Fair enough?
*shrug* you're still a liar. Just like the twip that tried to claim being a crafter that only charged 3 cpu for his products (and never responded what his profession was). You'd pitch a living fit the minute usable buff packs started dropping with any frequency from any NPCs because it'd cut directly into what your profession is designed to do, Doctor.
Anyone can sell the components found as loot. You don't have to be a Shipwright, don't have to grind 5m+ resources, to operate a vendor. Just get Business III in Artisan. And if anything began taking away what your profession was designed to do, Doc, you'd be kicking up a storm. So please, save the "I'd collect them and sell them" crap. It's a very hard sell that you'd allow all the time you invested into reaching Master Doctor to be negated by loot that trivialized what you could offer another player. At +2000 all stats for 3 hours, well below what a good Doctor could produce, I'd never bother finding one again. Most people wouldn't. And you'd have wasted training Master Medic and Master Doctor because of it.