Shipwright Archive
Thread: Factory Support Is Needed For Shipwright.
pervel
Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:37 pm
#79
Brilyn wrote:
< You make several attempts (aka. prototyping) at crafting an item until you get only "Great Succeses" during experimentation. This causes you to lose resources because your failed prototypes will generally be of no interest to customers due to their poor stats. >
This is false, and easily provable:
A single point on most Schematics for SW has a *small* effect, not a large one.
A single Moderate Success is a minor blemish, not a "oh well, junk *that* T21" that it is in Weaponsmithing.
Therefore, this line of thought is false.
Aside from which, the crafting system is *not* random.
Yes, there are some variables. Crafting inside a Manufacturing Centre reduces the Moderate Successes to maybe 1 per 10 items. Considering the lack of impact of this Moderate, it renders your point ("One of the practical implications of thisis that ships will cost a lot more. ") false.
Of course it is random. You are basically rolling a dice when experimenting. You can increase your chances in that dice roll. But you can never do away with it completely. Btw... I think you meant a Reseach Center. Unfortunately, most research centers do not work because AFAIK you still have to reset the specialization each week. Something which most mayors do not know or forget to do. Using Bespin Port is the only viable way to increase your chances during experimentation. But as I have argued before, this also drastically reduces the time you have available for hand-crafting.
I will admit something though. I am starting to think that the randomness argument, although still valid, is not the strongest argument. I think the strongest argument is the "free choice of playing style". Shipwright could easily be the best ever crafting profession if they added proper factory support. There really is good room for several playing styles. Personally I would probably be mostly into making "standard" components from a factory focusing on a few FOTM stats the customers that just want an easy purchase. But I would also be doing a little custom crafting for those customers (mostly guild mates and friends) that want to take a little more time in putting together a ship that matches their expectations.
VanzZylander
Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:04 pm
#80
Ok. Heres a little statistical data.
lets say you already made a factory run of upgrades for a particular component.
Then lets say that you made 50 of these components, and that you know that these will sell out in 1 day
It takes 40 seconds to put in resources and experiment (based on the item, it may take more or less)
So, once you put in resources, and get the item producing (assuming you are using multiple tools) you will have spent about45 seconds on one item.
Now, lets say your making 50 items. thats 50x45=2250
2250 divided by60 =37.5 minutes.
So, lets say it takes37minutes to make and stock 50 of 1 kind of item. (no interuptions)
Now, lets say your making..... and stocking... 4 different components.
4 different components at 37 minutes, per 50 items = about 2 hours and35 minutes.
Now, this is assuming you are doing this un-interupted. (which rarely happens, everyone has to eat, bathroom, drink, phone, family, friend, A LIFE, etc)
-=-=-=
Now, you also have to spend time making chassis, filling custom orders, reverse engineering, checking harvesters, etc.
So, lets say you spend 30 minutes making chassis
25 minutes filling custom orders
10 minutes reverse engineering
20 minutes checking harvesters
and 15 minutes doing misc stuff (answering questions, emails pertaining to SW, etc)
Now, all this combined is roughly 3 hours and 45minutes.
Personaly, 3 hours and 45 minutes, on an a daily basis isoutrageous, to say the least.
Now, i can also see how other people dont want to see it become one of those things where you just log in, dont do much but check factories, etc..
So, here is what i propose.
Put a limit on how MANY items can be produced in a factory. In this way, shipwrights will have to spend more time doing stuff, (stocking, which will mean more time in shop, crafting, but not spending hours on end, everday crafting, to stay competetive and meet the demand)
Oh, and YES i support using factories, i have a LIFE and CANT spend this much time crafting. Iwould like to do other things, such as fly in space, pvp, etc. i hate sitting there crafting the same component over and over and over, repetiveness does NOT make a game fun.
Isnt this star wars? Isnt is supposed to be futureistic? we can put build a house in 10 seconds, but we cant mass produce items in a factory......
I know this isnt the best proposed solution, im tired, and i cant think of anything better right now.
Brilyn
Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:09 pm
#81
< You haven't read all my posts then >
Yup.
Everything in this thread, by you, is based on this initial premise. You don't make *any* other points.
Feel free to copy-paste or retype them, if you feel I missed them.
But I did spend 20 min or so rereading the whole thread from start to finish before I posted the last comment.
< just don't tell me I don't make my points clear. >
?
If I don't know what they are (if they're in this thread), then you *obviously* didn't make them clear.
They all appear to be a restatment of "Experimentation is random, this makes items expensive, give us factories".
< Let us leave it at that and talk about the real issues. >
I agree.
And that is....?
Brilyn
Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:15 pm
#82
< I could even accept a limit as low as perhaps 30-40 items or perhaps some time-based limitation. >
Not going to happen.
You'll have later SWs complaining about the limit.
About how the limit is unfair, and a double-standard.
< But stressing this point would do away with the false claims that pro-factory people are only in it for the money. >
So.... what *are* you in it for? Why the need for factories, if NOT to make the credit-earning more time-efficient?
Brilyn
Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:25 pm
#83
< Unfortunately, most research centers do not work because AFAIK you still have to reset the specialization each week. Something which most mayors do not know or forget to do. >
This is news to me.
This has *never* been mentioned on any of the crafter forums (here) before, and people mention the Research Centers frequently (yes, my typo).
Anecdotely, I notice a higher degree of Moderate Successes when I craft places other than the Research Centre that my shop is based in.
And no, it's *not* random.
It's variable, yes. That's *not* the same as random. I have *never* Failed on an Experimentation roll since gaining Master Weaponsmith. I do not recall *ever* getting a Success on an Experimentation roll since gaining Master Weaponsmith. I *rarely* get a Moderate Sucess on an Experimentation roll since gaining Master Weaponsmith.
If they were Random, I'd get them equally.
< I am starting to think that the randomness argument, although still valid, is not the strongest argument. >
No, it's not valid.
For any *other* Crafting profession, it's valid.
Not for SW. The impact is *tiny*.
< I think the strongest argument is the "free choice of playing style". >
I think that's a lousy arguement.
What about the "I don't want to pay people for resources, *or* to use harvestors" playing style?
And so on.....
pervel
Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:33 pm
#84
Brilyn wrote:
< I could even accept a limit as low as perhaps 30-40 items or perhaps some time-based limitation. >
Not going to happen.
You'll have later SWs complaining about the limit.
About how the limit is unfair, and a double-standard.
< But stressing this point would do away with the false claims that pro-factory people are only in it for the money. >
So.... what *are* you in it for? Why the need for factories, if NOT to make the credit-earning more time-efficient?
You sure only gloss over my posts. *LOL* Ok, then let me copy and paste:
There really is good room for several playing styles. Personally I would probably be mostly into making "standard" components from a factory focusing on a few FOTM stats the customers that just want an easy purchase. But I would also be doing a little custom crafting for those customers (mostly guild mates and friends) that want to take a little more time in putting together a ship that matches their expectations.
Notice how I don't talk about making 1000's of items? It is about playing style. Sure there isa small benefit in time-efficiency too with factories. But if you add the limitations to schematics, this will never be a huge benefit. However, it will enable me to make and sell items that have consistent stats. Stats that I have decided will be good for my customers. I will probably stock my vendors with only a few of each and then restock (using my schematic) when they get sold out.
I ask to be able to keep playing the game like I want to. I ask for this in a way that will not affect your playing style. To stress this point I support the idea of limitations on schematics. I don't think it is needed but it will not hurt either.
pervel
Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:00 pm
#85
Brilyn wrote:
And no, it's *not* random.
It's variable, yes. That's *not* the same as random. I have *never* Failed on an Experimentation roll since gaining Master Weaponsmith. I do not recall *ever* getting a Success on an Experimentation roll since gaining Master Weaponsmith. I *rarely* get a Moderate Sucess on an Experimentation roll since gaining Master Weaponsmith.
If they were Random, I'd get them equally.
If you really want to get into a discussion about semantics, then I suggest you get a clue about what the words mean. That a system is random does NOT necessarily mean that every outcome has the exactly same probability. If one outcome (e.g. Great Success) has a 90% probability, and all other outcomes have less than 10%, it is a random system.
Brilyn
Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:01 pm
#86
< However, it will enable me to make and sell items that have consistent stats. >
?
You can make items with consistent stats by hand.
I *routinely* make 25 2-Handed Curved Swords with maxxed out damage lines, via a droid, in the middle of the Coronet Bazaar.
I end up with maybe 2 Swords, and 2 Sword Cores that need to be junked due to *a* Moderate Success.
SW doesn't suffer from this problem.
*A* Moderate Success is a minor blemish. *minor* blemish.
< To stress this point I support the idea of limitations on schematics. >
That won't be instituted for reasons I outlined above.
pervel
Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:15 pm
#87
Brilyn wrote:
< To stress this point I support the idea of limitations on schematics. >
That won't be instituted for reasons I outlined above.
Wow, you can tell the future? YAY! Please enlighten us all about how the game will turnout then. It could end all discussions on these forums. 
Ok ok... sorry. But comments like those are a way to avoid discussing certain issues. With comments like that there is no point in discussing anything.
Brilyn
Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:19 pm
#88
< Wow, you can tell the future? YAY! Please enlighten us all about how the game will turnout then. It could end all discussions on these forums. >
Wow, another provocative statement.
Sorry to insert a level of 'realism' here, but *why* would they limit SW to 30-40 uses per Schematic when all the other Crafter classes don't have this limit?
Why would the other SWs accept this limit? I have yet to see a *single* poster say "actually, yeah, 30-40 sounds reasonable". Nevermind the single poster, I *cannot* see 50% of the SW people out there thinking this arbitrarily low limit to be acceptable.
A limit of 30-40 would not be acceptable to the rest of the professions. To use WS as a quick-and-easy example:
You make 40 Power Handlers (in a factory).
You want to do a factory run of T21s. You need to kill 10 power Handlers for your Factory Schem of a T21, and you can only do a run of 3 due to the artificial limit of 40 in a factory run.
Now, fundamentally, the factory is not a necessity for the SW. You want it, you don't need it. It currently does not exist for the SW.
So, give a reason as to why the game should be rewritten to allow it?The reason should illustrate need, not want.
To date, all your points have either been false, or have been based off of 'I want' statements.
< Ok ok... sorry. But comments like those are a way to avoid discussing certain issues. With comments like that there is no point in discussing anything. >
How come when *you* say "see my previous comments in this thread" it's acceptable?
Mariki
Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:24 am
#89
Well five days into this and I really don't know if there is an argument. Even with factory support the resources are not going to be there. Limited use scematics, why bother, its not like anyone is gonna have enough resources to do a full factory run of anything. And what exactly do you do a factory run of? A Mk2 engine? A Mk3 launcher of numerious types? What ever you do a factory run of, you can be sure that25 out of30 customers, if not more are gonna want the other item, or the bigger engine. There are too many parts, too many combos, too many customers, and certainly not enough resources.
I read a post yesterday on our galaxy board from one of the largest and most enthusiastic Ship Wrights on our server of his decision to leave SWG, four days after launch. This was not some hack, I went and visited his shop before JTL came out. He had set up in a guildhall with a factory theme that was absolutely fantastic, had made a webpage, and had advertised extensively. Now I can only imagine why he is leaving.
I'm finding myself bogged down now. The weekend came and went and I didn't even get a chance to fly. Resources are going down fast after months of hording them. I could easy have to place all my harvestors on just one resource yet alone the dozens we need. I didn't even advertise really, word of mouth is enough. Just finding a SW is enough as anyone doing serious advertising will never meet demand.
Personally I'm starting to rethink out this whole thing. I don't think I want to be the jack of all trades SW and I think I am going to specialize. I think I am going to drop chassis, its too resource intensive and the demand as pilots lvl up is something I would never be able to keep up with. Also as with anything that is as resource intensive as ship chasis, people will never be able toafford a truely fair CPU rate of return. I can make as much with a good engine as I can with a small ship print and that engine uses a fraction of the materials.
As for factories, they might be nice with small parts but what we really need are harvestors with 3-4 times the current BER.
pervel
Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:31 am
#90
Brilyn wrote:
< Wow, you can tell the future? YAY! Please enlighten us all about how the game will turnout then. It could end all discussions on these forums. >
Wow, another provocative statement.
Yea, it was provocative. Just like you stating "Not going to happen" is provocative.
Sorry to insert a level of 'realism' here, but *why* would they limit SW to 30-40 uses per Schematic when all the other Crafter classes don't have this limit?
I never saideverybody would accept it. But it is a compromise that I think most could accept.
Why would the other SWs accept this limit? I have yet to see a *single* poster say "actually, yeah, 30-40 sounds reasonable". Nevermind the single poster, I *cannot* see 50% of the SW people out there thinking this arbitrarily low limit to be acceptable.
QuiJonOz gave the suggestion and I followed up on it. I guess we don't count then.
A limit of 30-40 would not be acceptable to the rest of the professions. To use WS as a quick-and-easy example:
You make 40 Power Handlers (in a factory).
You want to do a factory run of T21s. You need to kill 10 power Handlers for your Factory Schem of a T21, and you can only do a run of 3 due to the artificial limit of 40 in a factory run.
Never did I say it should work like that. You could easily make different limits on different schematics depending on what they are used for.
Now, fundamentally, the factory is not a necessity for the SW. You want it, you don't need it. It currently does not exist for the SW.
So, give a reason as to why the game should be rewritten to allow it?The reason should illustrate need, not want.
To date, all your points have either been false, or have been based off of 'I want' statements.
Funny how you disagreeing with my arguments make them false. *LOL*
< Ok ok... sorry. But comments like those are a way to avoid discussing certain issues. With comments like that there is no point in discussing anything. >
How come when *you* say "see my previous comments in this thread" it's acceptable?
Ehh... I was referring to you stating "Not going to happen" like it was a fact of life and thereby trying to stop any further discussion on that matter.
EnFERn0
Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:53 am
#91
Crafting this parts manually takes too much time.
I would like to play some as well, not experimenting componenets hour after hour.
Every parts should have the option for a schematic, even chassis.