Shipwright Archive
Thread: Factory Support Is Needed For Shipwright.
Niacia
Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:36 am
#66
Mariki wrote:We aren't going to decide this issue, the players are as they give SOE an ear full for creating a system that can not meet their demand. The economy is in a downward spin, resource prices have increased tremendously and there is no silver bullet on the horizon. Sure factories would help some but even that will not be enough unless everyone just stops flying.
Actually factories would make the situation worse for the economy, as factories would suck even more resources out of the economy. The thing to adjust is decay, not whether there are factories or not. And yes, I believe decay could be a little less.
Regards
Niacia
pervel
Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:57 am
#67
Brilyn wrote:
< In any case, as can be seen from the many posts and many new threads, this issue is far from dead. And I don't expect it will be for a good while - perhaps it never will be if the devs choose to continue to ignore this issue. >
See, now how is *that* a conducive statement?
In *what* way does it promote discussion?
What you are saying clearly there, is once the Devs change things to the way you want, then it's no longer an issue, and tough luck to people who think differentlyto you.
Are you trying to provoke people, or what?
No, but I am just annoyed (and a bit amused) by desperate factory-haters saying "Why wont this discussion die?". That does nothing to promote any discussion. I fail to see that I am provoking anybody - except if you call it provocative to state an opinion different than yours.
Obviously it will not die when there are so many people who think this is a very poor decision by the devs. I want a proper discussion on the issue. I also want the devs to contribute to this discussion. It is obvious that we are a lot of people that are against this decision. None of us really know how many is on each side because a forum like this cannot be used as a poll for that. So all we can do it state our opinion and our arguments for it.
ThowiLamen
Sun Oct 31, 2004 4:58 am
#68
I think that everyone is missing a criticle issue in this debate. And that is: Will there be enough SW
to supply all the players with the parts and chassis they need with hand crafting alone?
If the answer is 'no' then we need factories. I think it's too early to tell.
I would offer this compromise. How about allowing factory runs of ship components that do not use upgrades.
This would allow for the mass production of 'standard' parts, while at the same time allowing the hand crafting
of custom parts.
So far as a master ship wright, I do enjoy working with my customer to make a part to his or her specification. But I hate having to grind out all the parts to stock a novice level ship with every chassis I sell. So far
I don't have a vendor. All of my sells have been custom while standing in front of a star port. So I also
hate to make everyone else wait. (I had people lined up the other night, as if I were a doc buffing.)
One immediate ramification of not allowing factory made components is that a lot of people are having to make do
with poor quality looted components. Over time, this may change. But for now, I wonder how many people can't
find shipwright crafted parts that need them.
to supply all the players with the parts and chassis they need with hand crafting alone?
If the answer is 'no' then we need factories. I think it's too early to tell.
I would offer this compromise. How about allowing factory runs of ship components that do not use upgrades.
This would allow for the mass production of 'standard' parts, while at the same time allowing the hand crafting
of custom parts.
So far as a master ship wright, I do enjoy working with my customer to make a part to his or her specification. But I hate having to grind out all the parts to stock a novice level ship with every chassis I sell. So far
I don't have a vendor. All of my sells have been custom while standing in front of a star port. So I also
hate to make everyone else wait. (I had people lined up the other night, as if I were a doc buffing.)
One immediate ramification of not allowing factory made components is that a lot of people are having to make do
with poor quality looted components. Over time, this may change. But for now, I wonder how many people can't
find shipwright crafted parts that need them.
Munkie
Sun Oct 31, 2004 5:15 am
#69
Anti Factory except for consumables.
I agree with the other posters in that it helps those of us that are not multi-millionaires, keep up somewhat.
I mean it was bad enough that I have to try and keep with the grinders who are selling chassis for 10k a pop. I would love to seem them cap the quantity of ships you can make in a day as well.
I was not an artisan before JTL, and this is very discouraging to try and get in to thhe SW class.
Munkie!
4Bidden
Sun Oct 31, 2004 4:37 pm
#70
Munkie wrote:
Anti Factory except for consumables.
I agree with the other posters in that it helps those of us that are not multi-millionaires, keep up somewhat.
I completely disagree. At the current critical failure %'s I see the smallbusiness persongetting hurt more. I can afford to loose resources cause of this, but the small business person cant. Factory support would help them allot more than you think. It would fine toon production and would greatly reduce resource loss.. For those of you who say ""but there are to many experimentation configurations. Factories will take away from custom individual parts"" I disagree with that to.. I see a commonality in requests for parts.. I would say over 90% of my orders for capacitors are of the "high energy, high gen rate" kind.. Knowing this, it would help if I could run these on a factory to satisfy that 90+% crowd. I can custom make parts for people who want lower mass, or whatever they want...
pervel
Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:07 pm
#71
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I am one of the large weaponsmiths on Valcyn, and let me give you my perspective. As it stands I am sitting on a 600-800 million unit pile of resources, the only thing keeping me from going into SW and doing my best to dominate that market is the fact that factories dont exist. If/when they implement ship factories, believe that you are going to see the past large crafters come out of the woodwork and put a hurting on any crafter who just decided to craft for the first time in their SWG experience. So I guess you could say I am pro-factory, but the new crafter type SW's on Valcyn should be anti-factory.
There is one big difference between weaponsmith and shipwright. On weapons you basically only care about one experimentation line: damage. Ships and ship components have a multitude of different stats that can be customized. I think you would find it to be impossible to dominate the market with or without factories. There will always be a market for custom ships.
Being against factories is about forcing others to a certain playing style. Being pro factories is about giving people a choice.
FreeEnterprise
Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:33 pm
#72
pervel wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I am one of the large weaponsmiths on Valcyn, and let me give you my perspective. As it stands I am sitting on a 600-800 million unit pile of resources, the only thing keeping me from going into SW and doing my best to dominate that market is the fact that factories dont exist. If/when they implement ship factories, believe that you are going to see the past large crafters come out of the woodwork and put a hurting on any crafter who just decided to craft for the first time in their SWG experience. So I guess you could say I am pro-factory, but the new crafter type SW's on Valcyn should be anti-factory.
There is one big difference between weaponsmith and shipwright. On weapons you basically only care about one experimentation line: damage. Ships and ship components have a multitude of different stats that can be customized. I think you would find it to be impossible to dominate the market with or without factories. There will always be a market for custom ships.
Being against factories is about forcing others to a certain playing style. Being pro factories is about giving people a choice.
There will become a FOTM setup for all components just like everything else.....besides its really not hard to see the important stats on components, this whole customization thing is a farce.
Brilyn
Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:18 pm
#73
< Being against factories is about forcing others to a certain playing style. Being pro factories is about giving people a choice. >
Yes. Vive la revolution!
Or maybe, no. Being pro Factory isn't about giving people a choice.
It's about "I want to make as much money as possible".
With no factory you are *not* being 'forced into a certain playing style'. That's nonsense.
At the very *least*, you could *try* to substantiate your claim.......
pervel
Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:33 pm
#74
Brilyn wrote:
At the very *least*, you could *try* to substantiate your claim.......
I have done that several times in this very thread. Just scroll up!
Most "arguments" I see from the factory-haters are along the line of "We don't need factories because I love to hand-craft." I find that highly selfish and offending. It is good that you love you hand-craft. Keep on doing it. There is plenty of room for it with the shipwright profession. But just don't force me to do it too.
I and many others realize that there is so much more to crafting than just clicking a few buttons. I also love crafting. The searching for resources, the harvesting, the actual experimentation, crafting a schematic, making the items as either a prototype or in a factory, and lastly selling it. Using the crafting tool and clicking a few buttons while praying to the gods of luck is only a small part of it.
Brilyn
Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:00 pm
#75
< I have done that several times in this very thread. Just scroll up! >
Actually, no you have not substantiated that "Being pro factories is about giving people a choice". At all.
In case you have that confused with your previous points, I'll address the ones I haven't yet, mainly because they were clearly wrong. But, if you insist....
< You make several attempts (aka. prototyping) at crafting an item until you get only "Great Succeses" during experimentation. This causes you to lose resources because your failed prototypes will generally be of no interest to customers due to their poor stats. >
This is false, and easily provable:
A single point on most Schematics for SW has a *small* effect, not a large one.
A single Moderate Success is a minor blemish, not a "oh well, junk *that* T21" that it is in Weaponsmithing.
Therefore, this line of thought is false.
Aside from which, the crafting system is *not* random.
Yes, there are some variables. Crafting inside a Manufacturing Centre reduces the Moderate Successes to maybe 1 per 10 items. Considering the lack of impact of this Moderate, it renders your point ("One of the practical implications of thisis that ships will cost a lot more. ") false.
And.... well, that's the only point you've made in this thread.
QuiJonOz
Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:07 pm
#76
/sign
Even with limited numbers of schematics, like 100 instead of 1000, would be great.
pervel
Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:19 pm
#77
Brilyn wrote:
< I have done that several times in this very thread. Just scroll up! >
Actually, no you have not substantiated that "Being pro factories is about giving people a choice". At all.
....
And.... well, that's the only point you've made in this thread.
You haven't read all my posts then. Not that I blame you as such since this thread is getting long. I talked about this on page 2. And I have made several other points in replies to other people. I am probably the one that have made the most arguments for factories in both this and other threads. You are free to disagree with them - just don't tell me I don't make my points clear.
But getting further into a discussion about when or if who said what is boring and not helpful for any discussion. Let us leave it at that and talk about the real issues.
pervel
Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:23 pm
#78
QuiJonOz wrote:
/sign
Even with limited numbers of schematics, like 100 instead of 1000, would be great.
I fully agree with that and I think most of the pro-factory guys do too. I could even accept a limit as low as perhaps 30-40 items or perhaps some time-based limitation. I don't think it would change anything in practice. But stressing this point would do away with the false claims that pro-factory people are only in it for the money. Nothing is further from the truth than that.