Shipwright Archive
Thread: Loot drops nerfed, now what
Arryth wrote:
Thats a faulty argument... You do not need to sell mountans of stuff.. if you run out, you run out. Its no justification to nerf our loot or to defend the high prices, which HAVE 100% hurt jump to light speed.. It turns alot of players off to it..
Put up or shut up. Post the URL's to the posts where shipwrights have asked for an acuall NERF to loot drops. Lets see the posts hu? Or it is more likely that all your arguments are an oppinion you have that is not based in any fact.
And on your 100K profit is too much for an X-wing? so a 1-2 cpu profit is too much for ya hu? Even though a SW might be lucky to sell 2 in one week. And you could go to C-net any time and sell as many buffs as you can stand to sit for??
I am evengoing to edit in my own response. I spent thetime to browse thru most all the SW forums. Know what I noticed?No shipwrights asking for a loot nerf. I did find one post where a poster asked for a loot nerf, BUT hewasnot even a SW.I found about 8 posts that really were SW talking about loot, and in not one of them did a SW ask for a loot NERF (with the exception of a few posts in our discussion thread). They mostly discuss what to bother crafting and what not too.
What I do see? Are a few posts (more then a few) in the last 2 months by shipwrights making suggestions on how to imporve or add to the loot systems. Or solutions to help make crafted engines (mostly engines) better, more compairable to loot, not a nerf.
So please drop me some URL's to show us this massive push of SW to nerf loot, or realize that we did not ask for it, did not want it, but we get blamed for it never the less
Message Edited by MonsofoLexius on 01-17-2005 12:55 PM
Arryth wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
Arryth wrote:
10k is low for naritus and most servers. It is an established price. It is not based in any part on the actual quality of my resourses or my buffs.. If I charged on a bases of resourse cost my buffs would cost more like 15k each.
I hit 2650 per buff for 3 hours and 45 min on all stats (I make all packs identacle) Comparing doc crafting to ship crafting is just silly.. Doc crafting requires vastly more time. Especially because I gather ALL of my own resourses.
The avain I gathered my self would sell for 400 cpu or more on most servers (I gathored 250k of it). SO each buff is a cost of 3240 just in meat, about another 3000 for all the other resourses. so lets say 6500 so far cost per buff... the theirs food.. my total cost per buff/food dose is about 600 credits.. So 7,100 credits is my cost to deliver each buff.. and I make a profit of 2,900 of each one.. Thats not a big return considering the gigantic amount of time invested to get from resourses (eithor bought or gathered). That does not even count the harrassment, and abuse that we have to put up with, which is substantial, and It also assumes you SELL every buff you make.. My actually realized profit per buff is more like 2,000. So i make about a 20% profit. The 25% ive seen sighted by some shipwrights on this forum is alot better then my 20%, and for much less work... Dont think so? Go gather 20k of avian some time.... There are ample oppurtunities for a shipwright to make money in ways other then crafted parts sales... A big one Id like to see is re'd part sales. Get pilot... its free.. and gathor loot.. re it and sell it... the good stuff is worth alot. Plus you can subsadise your shipwright with space money. Every shipwright should also be a master pilot.. and a seasoned one at that... You must know the ins and outs of what ytou sell and their effects in space combat.
Unless you're going to say "Every Doctor should be a Master Ranger/Artisan" don't presume to tell people what professions they should be. I'm Ace Alliance pilot and in reaching Ace level, I had to neglect progression in Shipwright. There's only so many hours in a play session and hunting for cheap resources eats a lot of time. Along with crafting substantial amounts of stock.
Now you seem to be able to justify YOUR outrageous inflation of cpu when people question your prices for buffs. But when it comes to Shipwrights, we're greedy. I have a saying "With hypocrisy comes apathy".
You also forget the cost/benifit of the buff.. With that buff much money can be made.. with most ship parts, at the prices that are predomanateing... You will never realize a profit from buying the part, or ship
You do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot, right? You do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot who is using space loot/duty mission rewards to buy the 5m+ resources necessary to grind Shipwright? You do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot who is using space loot/duty mission rewards to buy the 5m+ resources necessary to grind Shipwright a second timeafter dropping Shipwright at 4334, right?
Puh-lease. If it weren't for the components in my X-Wing, duty missions would take forever. But the right guns, with the right reactor (been using the same reactor since x3xx), with the right shield generator (been using the same shield generator since x3xx) lets my X-Wing cut through a duty mission like it's butter. 2-3 full hits to kill a shielded Tier 4 Black Sun. 2 hits to kill an unshielded Tier 4 Tie. About 1 1/2 - 2 hours to complete a duty mission for 300+k in credits. And all that earning potential is because my X-Wing's shields can take the hits from 4-5 Tier 4 NPCs, allowing me to ignore ships on my tail while I tear into what's in front of me. And all that earning potential is because my X-Wing's reactor cansupport the guns, shields and other components without Reactor Overload. And all that earning potential has generated actual income far beyond the silly prices you claim are standard on Naritus and have been questioned (with proof) via links to Naritus specific subforums. I've earned several million credits from space just since hitting 3433 in the Alliance Pilot tree, thanks to the components I put in my X-Wing (earning Ace left little time to even find good shipwright resources, nevermind attempting tosell Shipwright products). The only ship I have that will prolly never pay for itself + components is my Nova Courier, due to the lack of firepower inherent in MP ships (not a Master Shipwright yet, so I had to buy my Nova from a Master Shipwright for 600k).
I won't mention what my B-Wing can do to things fully tricked out (also costing 600k).
Message Edited by Rhysen on 01-17-2005 02:22 PM
Arryth wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
Arryth wrote:
10k is low for naritus and most servers. It is an established price. It is not based in any part on the actual quality of my resourses or my buffs.. If I charged on a bases of resourse cost my buffs would cost more like 15k each.
I hit 2650 per buff for 3 hours and 45 min on all stats (I make all packs identacle) Comparing doc crafting to ship crafting is just silly.. Doc crafting requires vastly more time. Especially because I gather ALL of my own resourses.
The avain I gathered my self would sell for 400 cpu or more on most servers (I gathored 250k of it). SO each buff is a cost of 3240 just in meat, about another 3000 for all the other resourses. so lets say 6500 so far cost per buff... the theirs food.. my total cost per buff/food dose is about 600 credits.. So 7,100 credits is my cost to deliver each buff.. and I make a profit of 2,900 of each one.. Thats not a big return considering the gigantic amount of time invested to get from resourses (eithor bought or gathered). That does not even count the harrassment, and abuse that we have to put up with, which is substantial, and It also assumes you SELL every buff you make.. My actually realized profit per buff is more like 2,000. So i make about a 20% profit. The 25% ive seen sighted by some shipwrights on this forum is alot better then my 20%, and for much less work... Dont think so? Go gather 20k of avian some time.... There are ample oppurtunities for a shipwright to make money in ways other then crafted parts sales... A big one Id like to see is re'd part sales. Get pilot... its free.. and gathor loot.. re it and sell it... the good stuff is worth alot. Plus you can subsadise your shipwright with space money. Every shipwright should also be a master pilot.. and a seasoned one at that... You must know the ins and outs of what ytou sell and their effects in space combat.
Here's where this guy's hypocrisy really shines through. He assumes the cost for Avian meat he gathered himself is the going rate of 400 cpu. Mind you, he didn't buy the meat for 400 cpu. His only effective cost was the time he spent harvesting 250K (which I'll grant is no easy feat).
But he expects shipwrights to sell their wares at 1 cpu, because the cost of harvesting the resources ourselves is so cheap. Nevermind that top-grade resources used in shipwright components could easily sell for 5 to 20 cpu. No, in his calculations, shipwrights aren't allowed to use the going market value of the resources as a cost factor...but he can when determining the cost of his buffs.
You've been exposed for what you really are. Go troll somewhere else.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Message Edited by EdOWar on 01-13-2005 11:21 AM
No poor edowar.. I assigned the value of the avain based on the time it would take to get it my self or the cost to buy it.. which sets it more or less at 400 cpu.. Avian gathering is among the most painfull things in swg.. Its boring, time cunsuming, and oh yes, boring. Gathering 20k of avian can easily take 40 hours or more. You can NOT discount sheer time spent in a resourse that work intensive.. Its not even in the same plain of existence as minerals and chemicals. I expect.. shipwright to sell their stuff at no more then 6cpu. Over that, and I do consider you to be greedy, considering time involved. Especially that the cost spent on your product is VERY unlikely to be realized in any form of profit by your consumer.
Just to be fair, its not quite that simple. When people say "You expect me to sell chassis at 2cpu when I can sell the raw metal for 8cpu?" its a similar situation. If you collect avian, it usually goes for sky high prices - 400cpu is not out of the question. The last time I did some avian gathering, 225cpu was bieng offered for it, so if I hunt it and use it myself, Ive lost the opportunity to sell it for 225cpu, thus whatever Im making with it needs to be more profitable, or its silly.
There is no objective value on anything in this game, but there are however reasonable expectations of what something will sell for, or what people are offering for it. You can say that mined resources have an objective value, but thats not true either. They simply have an objective minimum worth, which ironcially is the same situation - why mine it if Im going to sell it for less than it cost to mine? Sounds an awefull lot like why make it if I can sell the raw resources for more?
Marzuk147 wrote:
"Sorry "poor" Arryth, the 400 cpu value you assign to gathering Avian meat is completely arbitrary and subjective. That is what YOU feel it's worth...it is not an objective value. "
Just to be fair, its not quite that simple. When people say "You expect me to sell chassis at 2cpu when I can sell the raw metal for 8cpu?" its a similar situation. If you collect avian, it usually goes for sky high prices - 400cpu is not out of the question. The last time I did some avian gathering, 225cpu was bieng offered for it, so if I hunt it and use it myself, Ive lost the opportunity to sell it for 225cpu, thus whatever Im making with it needs to be more profitable, or its silly.
There is no objective value on anything in this game, but there are however reasonable expectations of what something will sell for, or what people are offering for it. You can say that mined resources have an objective value, but thats not true either. They simply have an objective minimum worth, which ironcially is the same situation - why mine it if Im going to sell it for less than it cost to mine? Sounds an awefull lot like why make it if I can sell the raw resources for more?
What you're talking about is called opportunity cost. If you can sell your Avian meat for 400 cpu, but choose not to, then 400 cpu is your opportunity cost, but not your actual out-of-pocketcost. His out-of-pocket cost would only be 400 cpu if he actually bought it on the market for that price (at which point I would argue it becomes objective).
But that's really besides the point. I was pointing out his hypocrisy in assigning an arbitrary value for meat he gathered himselfto justifyhis prices for buffs, but then turning around and saying shipwrights can't do the same for their wares. If he practiced what he preached to shipwrights, he'd be selling buffs for a few hundred credits each, instead of 10K each.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Diorchas wrote:
Arryth wrote:
Diorchas wrote:Chiwawa,I came to the conclusion long ago that this guy is either intentionally stirring up trouble by pretending to not understand the very reasonable explanations that Shipwrights give for our prices..or...he's a willfully ignorant @$$hat.Either way, it's a waste of our time to dignify his remarks, since it's obvious that common sense and consideration are not in his vocabulary.I mean, this is the same guy who will justify his own markup but rail against us for marking our prices up LESS than he does. It's an exercise in futility trying to reach him.
LOL.. give me a break.. in total time required in doc meds vs shipparts.. Doc has you completely trumped.. much of the doc services is for his time. I understand well the shipwright problems, but I do not agree with your solutions of nerfing. You all should be asking the deves to streamline the profession and lower resourse costs, not ruin fun for your customers... None of you think of the pilots.. just your own egos and wallets. You do not need to, nor should you as shipwrights be able to make every thing better then loot. And as far as marking my prices up more?? Time included im makeing far less cpu then the shipwrights on my server. Someone selling an x-wing at 400k here makes 100k profit fro 5 min time... I have to set for a half hour applying buff after buff to make that much, not counting time spent crafting the stuff. Its apples to oranges..
First off... what "solutions of nerfing" are you talking about? Please, point out to me where I have advocated nerfing anything. It's just this kind of asinine generalisation and misrepresentation that makes you come off as being an ignorant @$$hat with an agenda.
Second, the things you say we "should be doing" are exactly the things we HAVE BEEN DOING. Yet idiots like you STILL attribute false motivations to our community. You wonder why you engender so much antagonism? It's because you are willfully misrepresenting our stance and that undermines our VERY reasonable complaints.
Third, do you really think that Shipwrights make more money as a Shipwright than you do as a Doctor? That would be amusing if the idea weren't so laughably pathetic. As a shipwright I have reaped infinitely more criticism than credits. Because of people like you. Because of the lies and misrepresentations you are guilty of. And because of the necessarily high prices that all shipwrights must charge in order to simply cover their costs, let alone make a profit.
Fourth, don't say we don't think of pilots. Many, if not most, of us are pilots as well. I personally have stated many times that I understand why pilots enjoy the loot aspect of the game. I simply want a loot system whereby BOTH parties benefit and to that end have suggested that shipwrights be allowed to create a limited run schematic of whatever they RE. That way they can benefit from all the best parts that so many Pilots are hoarding.
Fifth, if you discount all intangibles used to determine pricing for Shipwrights (Mining, resources intensivity, lack of factory support, constant grief from the Pilot population, etc) then you absolutely cannot use them to support your argument. Either such intangibles can be applied universally into pricing or they cannot at all. Choose. You don't get to use them to support your argument and deny us the same arguments. It's that very self-centered antagonistic attitude that holds our shared communities back from making real progress.
Sixth, if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Stop being part of the problem.
Seventh, you're still an @$$hat.
Bleh. Wasted too much time in here on someone who is incapable of seeing his own ignorance. No more. On to more productive things.
And in the end you reveal greed. Why should you benefit from loot I EARNED. You want benifit.. GO EARN IT. As far as the prices charged.. If your chargeing the prices seen on naritus and other servers, then you are makeing more money then I do as a doctor. As far as the nerfing im talking about... It is nerfing the loot if they make most shipwright parts better or even to the best loot. It ruins the specialness of loot. The only two compnents Id like to see better for shipwright then they now are are engines and reactors. You should be mineing most of your own resourses, not buying from privateer miners and further jacking up resourse costs. Join a guild or something if you have to... We now have a guild shipwright that between us as able to supply every thing free to guild member and still make money selling to the out side, because of guild mineing support. If you went into something like shipwright with out a large resourse stock, and experience in mass mineing, then of course you had problems. And again.. do not compair doc to shipwright.. Its apples to oranges.. As far as time sepnt to craft doc has you beat in spades.
MonsofoLexius wrote:
Arryth wrote:
Thats a faulty argument... You do not need to sell mountans of stuff.. if you run out, you run out. Its no justification to nerf our loot or to defend the high prices, which HAVE 100% hurt jump to light speed.. It turns alot of players off to it..
Put up or shut up. Post the URL's to the posts where shipwrights have asked for an acuall NERF to loot drops. Lets see the posts hu? Or it is more likely that all your arguments are an oppinion you have that is not based in any fact.
And on your 100K profit is too much for an X-wing? so a 1-2 cpu profit is too much for ya hu? Even though a SW might be lucky to sell 2 in one week. And you could go to C-net any time and sell as many buffs as you can stand to sit for??
I am even going to edit in my own response. I spent the time to browse thru most all the SW forums. Know what I noticed? No shipwrights asking for a loot nerf. I did find one post where a poster asked for a loot nerf, BUT he was not even a SW. I found about 8 posts that really were SW talking about loot, and in not one of them did a SW ask for a loot NERF (with the exception of a few posts in our discussion thread). They mostly discuss what to bother crafting and what not too.
What I do see? Are a few posts (more then a few) in the last 2 months by shipwrights making suggestions on how to imporve or add to the loot systems. Or solutions to help make crafted engines (mostly engines) better, more compairable to loot, not a nerf.
So please drop me some URL's to show us this massive push of SW to nerf loot, or realize that we did not ask for it, did not want it, but we get blamed for it never the less
Message Edited by MonsofoLexius on 01-17-2005 12:55 PM
It is a nerf by nutralizeing loot power.. if shipwright parts are all as good as loot.. there is not point to loot. It is a nerf, and several of you have said it. Im not posting here any more, as you shipwrights are oviously in this for one thing, money. Stay on your boards and we will stay on ours.. Im only over here because a few of you chumps came over to the Pilot forums crying about loot and decay, and mascerading as pilots, when your shipwrights... Its called conflict of interest.. If your a shipwright, your point of view is off center to whats good for the pilot profession. The only arguments, demands or requests we will accnoledge from you guys are resourse reductions for your craftables, and a few increses in the power of select parts.. engines and reactors for example. Nerf.. either by lowering power of loot, or canceling it out, are unaccptable.
Rhysen wrote:
Arryth wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
Arryth wrote:
10k is low for naritus and most servers. It is an established price. It is not based in any part on the actual quality of my resourses or my buffs.. If I charged on a bases of resourse cost my buffs would cost more like 15k each.
I hit 2650 per buff for 3 hours and 45 min on all stats (I make all packs identacle) Comparing doc crafting to ship crafting is just silly.. Doc crafting requires vastly more time. Especially because I gather ALL of my own resourses.
The avain I gathered my self would sell for 400 cpu or more on most servers (I gathored 250k of it). SO each buff is a cost of 3240 just in meat, about another 3000 for all the other resourses. so lets say 6500 so far cost per buff... the theirs food.. my total cost per buff/food dose is about 600 credits.. So 7,100 credits is my cost to deliver each buff.. and I make a profit of 2,900 of each one.. Thats not a big return considering the gigantic amount of time invested to get from resourses (eithor bought or gathered). That does not even count the harrassment, and abuse that we have to put up with, which is substantial, and It also assumes you SELL every buff you make.. My actually realized profit per buff is more like 2,000. So i make about a 20% profit. The 25% ive seen sighted by some shipwrights on this forum is alot better then my 20%, and for much less work... Dont think so? Go gather 20k of avian some time.... There are ample oppurtunities for a shipwright to make money in ways other then crafted parts sales... A big one Id like to see is re'd part sales. Get pilot... its free.. and gathor loot.. re it and sell it... the good stuff is worth alot. Plus you can subsadise your shipwright with space money. Every shipwright should also be a master pilot.. and a seasoned one at that... You must know the ins and outs of what ytou sell and their effects in space combat.Unless you're going to say "Every Doctor should be a Master Ranger/Artisan" don't presume to tell people what professions they should be. I'm Ace Alliance pilot and in reaching Ace level, I had to neglect progression in Shipwright. There's only so many hours in a play session and hunting for cheap resources eats a lot of time. Along with crafting substantial amounts of stock.
Now you seem to be able to justify YOUR outrageous inflation of cpu when people question your prices for buffs. But when it comes to Shipwrights, we're greedy. I have a saying "With hypocrisy comes apathy".
You also forget the cost/benifit of the buff.. With that buff much money can be made.. with most ship parts, at the prices that are predomanateing... You will never realize a profit from buying the part, or shipYou do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot, right? You do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot who is using space loot/duty mission rewards to buy the 5m+ resources necessary to grind Shipwright? You do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot who is using space loot/duty mission rewards to buy the 5m+ resources necessary to grind Shipwright a second time after dropping Shipwright at 4334, right?
Puh-lease. If it weren't for the components in my X-Wing, duty missions would take forever. But the right guns, with the right reactor (been using the same reactor since x3xx), with the right shield generator (been using the same shield generator since x3xx) lets my X-Wing cut through a duty mission like it's butter. 2-3 full hits to kill a shielded Tier 4 Black Sun. 2 hits to kill an unshielded Tier 4 Tie. About 1 1/2 - 2 hours to complete a duty mission for 300+k in credits. And all that earning potential is because my X-Wing's shields can take the hits from 4-5 Tier 4 NPCs, allowing me to ignore ships on my tail while I tear into what's in front of me. And all that earning potential is because my X-Wing's reactor can support the guns, shields and other components without Reactor Overload. And all that earning potential has generated actual income far beyond the silly prices you claim are standard on Naritus and have been questioned (with proof) via links to Naritus specific subforums. I've earned several million credits from space just since hitting 3433 in the Alliance Pilot tree, thanks to the components I put in my X-Wing (earning Ace left little time to even find good shipwright resources, nevermind attempting to sell Shipwright products). The only ship I have that will prolly never pay for itself + components is my Nova Courier, due to the lack of firepower inherent in MP ships (not a Master Shipwright yet, so I had to buy my Nova from a Master Shipwright for 600k).
I won't mention what my B-Wing can do to things fully tricked out (also costing 600k).
Message Edited by Rhysen on 01-17-2005 02:22 PM
If ya dont believe the prices, make a character on naritus and then march straight sourth from coronet and check it out your self at the south coronet mall, or any of the 10 or so shipwrights in that area. Then insert your foot into your mouth.. I cant post links to prices that are not advertised.
EdOWar wrote:
Marzuk147 wrote:
"Sorry "poor" Arryth, the 400 cpu value you assign to gathering Avian meat is completely arbitrary and subjective. That is what YOU feel it's worth...it is not an objective value. "
Just to be fair, its not quite that simple. When people say "You expect me to sell chassis at 2cpu when I can sell the raw metal for 8cpu?" its a similar situation. If you collect avian, it usually goes for sky high prices - 400cpu is not out of the question. The last time I did some avian gathering, 225cpu was bieng offered for it, so if I hunt it and use it myself, Ive lost the opportunity to sell it for 225cpu, thus whatever Im making with it needs to be more profitable, or its silly.
There is no objective value on anything in this game, but there are however reasonable expectations of what something will sell for, or what people are offering for it. You can say that mined resources have an objective value, but thats not true either. They simply have an objective minimum worth, which ironcially is the same situation - why mine it if Im going to sell it for less than it cost to mine? Sounds an awefull lot like why make it if I can sell the raw resources for more?What you're talking about is called opportunity cost. If you can sell your Avian meat for 400 cpu, but choose not to, then 400 cpu is your opportunity cost, but not your actual out-of-pocket cost. His out-of-pocket cost would only be 400 cpu if he actually bought it on the market for that price (at which point I would argue it becomes objective).
But that's really besides the point. I was pointing out his hypocrisy in assigning an arbitrary value for meat he gathered himself to justify his prices for buffs, but then turning around and saying shipwrights can't do the same for their wares. If he practiced what he preached to shipwrights, he'd be selling buffs for a few hundred credits each, instead of 10K each.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Meats are different then minerals.. they have a whole other relm of cost factor.. they take actuall work to gather them.. the time intensity to get enough of them is very high. that governs the costs.. Avian prices are high. because people hate to gather it.. Its boreing, and takes tons of time. With out substantial payment most people will not bother with it. Compare that to mineing.. Where I can go to a waypoint, dromp harvesters in about 15 min all told, and com back to hundreds of thausands in resourses the next day, up to a million if I have guild help. There is no comparison.. I do not expect to be paid 400cpu for the avain portion of the buff because I paid that much for it... I expect that much per unit, because thats the amount my time is worth. Compared to the time spent doc makes less money then a shipwright, if the doc is makeing his own stuff. The most costly element in this game is time.
Arryth wrote:
MonsofoLexius wrote:
Arryth wrote:
Thats a faulty argument... You do not need to sell mountans of stuff.. if you run out, you run out. Its no justification to nerf our loot or to defend the high prices, which HAVE 100% hurt jump to light speed.. It turns alot of players off to it..
Put up or shut up. Post the URL's to the posts where shipwrights have asked for an acuall NERF to loot drops. Lets see the posts hu? Or it is more likely that all your arguments are an oppinion you have that is not based in any fact.
And on your 100K profit is too much for an X-wing? so a 1-2 cpu profit is too much for ya hu? Even though a SW might be lucky to sell 2 in one week. And you could go to C-net any time and sell as many buffs as you can stand to sit for??
I am even going to edit in my own response. I spent the time to browse thru most all the SW forums. Know what I noticed? No shipwrights asking for a loot nerf. I did find one post where a poster asked for a loot nerf, BUT he was not even a SW. I found about 8 posts that really were SW talking about loot, and in not one of them did a SW ask for a loot NERF (with the exception of a few posts in our discussion thread). They mostly discuss what to bother crafting and what not too.
What I do see? Are a few posts (more then a few) in the last 2 months by shipwrights making suggestions on how to imporve or add to the loot systems. Or solutions to help make crafted engines (mostly engines) better, more compairable to loot, not a nerf.
So please drop me some URL's to show us this massive push of SW to nerf loot, or realize that we did not ask for it, did not want it, but we get blamed for it never the less
Message Edited by MonsofoLexius on 01-17-2005 12:55 PM
It is a nerf by nutralizeing loot power.. if shipwright parts are all as good as loot.. there is not point to loot. It is a nerf, and several of you have said it. Im not posting here any more, as you shipwrights are oviously in this for one thing, money. Stay on your boards and we will stay on ours.. Im only over here because a few of you chumps came over to the Pilot forums crying about loot and decay, and mascerading as pilots, when your shipwrights... Its called conflict of interest.. If your a shipwright, your point of view is off center to whats good for the pilot profession. The only arguments, demands or requests we will accnoledge from you guys are resourse reductions for your craftables, and a few increses in the power of select parts.. engines and reactors for example. Nerf.. either by lowering power of loot, or canceling it out, are unaccptable.
Actually Arryth I am a pilot, and I am not a profiteer. The main problem you have with us in this forum is your generalisation that we are ALL scum, THAT is what we find offensive.
You might do better to point out that there are gougers out there (we know) and discuss the issues that raises in a reasonable manner. By generalising in the way you do, you come across as demanding the immediate end to this profession via nerfing, and that will not win you any friends here at all. By having loot that is better than all crafted items, and having no decay, what is there left for us to do? Craft missiles? Sod that, you may as well make that part of the artisan tree and be done with it. My point here is that you have not come up with any reasonable replacement for us to do. Reverse engineering, missiles.....hmmm sounds a lot like a smuggler and noone would deny their plight.
Telling people how to run there own business will not win you any support either, I was going to quit the whole game after some of the comments raised here (including yours) and when I told my customers this, I got nothing but support for what I do, so I guess I must be doing something right huh?
The solution....hmm difficult, I like loot too, at the same time I run a business, and I like that to be diverse and generate revenue so I can do the odd crazy thing like give away a firespray
EdOWar wrote:
Arryth wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
Arryth wrote:
10k is low for naritus and most servers. It is an established price. It is not based in any part on the actual quality of my resourses or my buffs.. If I charged on a bases of resourse cost my buffs would cost more like 15k each.
I hit 2650 per buff for 3 hours and 45 min on all stats (I make all packs identacle) Comparing doc crafting to ship crafting is just silly.. Doc crafting requires vastly more time. Especially because I gather ALL of my own resourses.
The avain I gathered my self would sell for 400 cpu or more on most servers (I gathored 250k of it). SO each buff is a cost of 3240 just in meat, about another 3000 for all the other resourses. so lets say 6500 so far cost per buff... the theirs food.. my total cost per buff/food dose is about 600 credits.. So 7,100 credits is my cost to deliver each buff.. and I make a profit of 2,900 of each one.. Thats not a big return considering the gigantic amount of time invested to get from resourses (eithor bought or gathered). That does not even count the harrassment, and abuse that we have to put up with, which is substantial, and It also assumes you SELL every buff you make.. My actually realized profit per buff is more like 2,000. So i make about a 20% profit. The 25% ive seen sighted by some shipwrights on this forum is alot better then my 20%, and for much less work... Dont think so? Go gather 20k of avian some time.... There are ample oppurtunities for a shipwright to make money in ways other then crafted parts sales... A big one Id like to see is re'd part sales. Get pilot... its free.. and gathor loot.. re it and sell it... the good stuff is worth alot. Plus you can subsadise your shipwright with space money. Every shipwright should also be a master pilot.. and a seasoned one at that... You must know the ins and outs of what ytou sell and their effects in space combat.Here's where this guy's hypocrisy really shines through. He assumes the cost for Avian meat he gathered himself is the going rate of 400 cpu. Mind you, he didn't buy the meat for 400 cpu. His only effective cost was the time he spent harvesting 250K (which I'll grant is no easy feat).But he expects shipwrights to sell their wares at 1 cpu, because the cost of harvesting the resources ourselves is so cheap. Nevermind that top-grade resources used in shipwright components could easily sell for 5 to 20 cpu. No, in his calculations, shipwrights aren't allowed to use the going market value of the resources as a cost factor...but he can when determining the cost of his buffs.You've been exposed for what you really are. Go troll somewhere else.Slim Vargo, CorbantisMessage Edited by EdOWar on 01-13-2005 11:21 AM
No poor edowar.. I assigned the value of the avain based on the time it would take to get it my self or the cost to buy it.. which sets it more or less at 400 cpu.. Avian gathering is among the most painfull things in swg.. Its boring, time cunsuming, and oh yes, boring. Gathering 20k of avian can easily take 40 hours or more. You can NOT discount sheer time spent in a resourse that work intensive.. Its not even in the same plain of existence as minerals and chemicals. I expect.. shipwright to sell their stuff at no more then 6cpu. Over that, and I do consider you to be greedy, considering time involved. Especially that the cost spent on your product is VERY unlikely to be realized in any form of profit by your consumer.Well, I know I'm feeding the troll, but what the hell...Sorry "poor" Arryth, the 400 cpu value you assign to gathering Avian meat is completely arbitrary and subjective. That is what YOU feel it's worth...it is not an objective value. Checking harvestors isn't much fun either, so maybe shipwrights feel it's worth at least 5 cpu for their time. And as many shipwrights have explained, repeatedly, the resource requirements are so high for our profession that most shipwrights have to buy resources. And those resources can go for anywhere from 3 cpu to 20 cpu (or higher), depending on quality and rarity.Oh, and you forgot to mention that you only need around 20-30 Avian meat per buff pack, or a couple hundred for all six stats. How hard do you have to work to get a couple hundred units of Avian meat?You expect shipwrights to sell their goods for no more than 6 cpu? Shipwrights have to handcraft practically everything, and even with that there are still dumbass low-ballers selling for 1 cpu. Doctors have the benefits of factories (and rightfully so, I might add...I in no way advocate factories for shipwright).Our customers can realize considerable profit from our products when you consider that: A) decay is practically a non-issue for ship components and B) pilots can make good amounts of money from duty missions and from selling looted components (most of which are junk anyways) for 1K per equipment level. That income potential is very competitive with the ground game when you consider pilots don't have to buy food, buffs, armor or weapons (which decay faster than ship components), power-ups, etc.You "sir" are a complete hypocrite and a troll.Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Your assertion that decay is not an issue is patently false when so many of you are posting here and on the pilot forums to reintroduce decay... I do NOT make much profit from my buffs.. By the time all is said and done I may have made a total profit of 30k on full set... when food, buffing noobs for free, or reduced, and misfireing buffs or haveing people come with 999 bf and then demanding refund... 30-90k for what amounts to 12 hours or more of work in some cases.... Wow.. what a profit.. I guess I should go now, as I make so very much more then you humble shipwrights.
Arryth wrote: Your assertion that decay is not an issue is patently false when so many of you are posting here and on the pilot forums to reintroduce decay... I do NOT make much profit from my buffs.. By the time all is said and done I may have made a total profit of 30k on full set... when food, buffing noobs for free, or reduced, and misfireing buffs or haveing people come with 999 bf and then demanding refund... 30-90k for what amounts to 12 hours or more of work in some cases.... Wow.. what a profit.. I guess I should go now, as I make so very much more then you humble shipwrights.
Decay should ONLY be re-introduced into deepspace (currently the only place it does not exist) if they fail to introduce a scoring system in PvP. There always should be something to raise your pulserate when dogfighting, it makes it more fun, dont you agree?
Even if the do bring it back, it should be calmed down a LOT.
Personally I would prefer to see a scoring system in Deepspace, and decay everywhere else, there should always be something to lose, but if you want to potentially die a lot, it should only be your score
