Shipwright Archive
Thread: Loot drops nerfed, now what
Arryth wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
Arryth wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
Arryth wrote:
10k is low for naritus and most servers. It is an established price. It is not based in any part on the actual quality of my resourses or my buffs.. If I charged on a bases of resourse cost my buffs would cost more like 15k each.
I hit 2650 per buff for 3 hours and 45 min on all stats (I make all packs identacle) Comparing doc crafting to ship crafting is just silly.. Doc crafting requires vastly more time. Especially because I gather ALL of my own resourses.
The avain I gathered my self would sell for 400 cpu or more on most servers (I gathored 250k of it). SO each buff is a cost of 3240 just in meat, about another 3000 for all the other resourses. so lets say 6500 so far cost per buff... the theirs food.. my total cost per buff/food dose is about 600 credits.. So 7,100 credits is my cost to deliver each buff.. and I make a profit of 2,900 of each one.. Thats not a big return considering the gigantic amount of time invested to get from resourses (eithor bought or gathered). That does not even count the harrassment, and abuse that we have to put up with, which is substantial, and It also assumes you SELL every buff you make.. My actually realized profit per buff is more like 2,000. So i make about a 20% profit. The 25% ive seen sighted by some shipwrights on this forum is alot better then my 20%, and for much less work... Dont think so? Go gather 20k of avian some time.... There are ample oppurtunities for a shipwright to make money in ways other then crafted parts sales... A big one Id like to see is re'd part sales. Get pilot... its free.. and gathor loot.. re it and sell it... the good stuff is worth alot. Plus you can subsadise your shipwright with space money. Every shipwright should also be a master pilot.. and a seasoned one at that... You must know the ins and outs of what ytou sell and their effects in space combat.
Unless you're going to say "Every Doctor should be a Master Ranger/Artisan" don't presume to tell people what professions they should be. I'm Ace Alliance pilot and in reaching Ace level, I had to neglect progression in Shipwright. There's only so many hours in a play session and hunting for cheap resources eats a lot of time. Along with crafting substantial amounts of stock.
Now you seem to be able to justify YOUR outrageous inflation of cpu when people question your prices for buffs. But when it comes to Shipwrights, we're greedy. I have a saying "With hypocrisy comes apathy".
You also forget the cost/benifit of the buff.. With that buff much money can be made.. with most ship parts, at the prices that are predomanateing... You will never realize a profit from buying the part, or ship
You do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot, right? You do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot who is using space loot/duty mission rewards to buy the 5m+ resources necessary to grind Shipwright? You do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot who is using space loot/duty mission rewards to buy the 5m+ resources necessary to grind Shipwright a second time after dropping Shipwright at 4334, right?
Puh-lease. If it weren't for the components in my X-Wing, duty missions would take forever. But the right guns, with the right reactor (been using the same reactor since x3xx), with the right shield generator (been using the same shield generator since x3xx) lets my X-Wing cut through a duty mission like it's butter. 2-3 full hits to kill a shielded Tier 4 Black Sun. 2 hits to kill an unshielded Tier 4 Tie. About 1 1/2 - 2 hours to complete a duty mission for 300+k in credits. And all that earning potential is because my X-Wing's shields can take the hits from 4-5 Tier 4 NPCs, allowing me to ignore ships on my tail while I tear into what's in front of me. And all that earning potential is because my X-Wing's reactor can support the guns, shields and other components without Reactor Overload. And all that earning potential has generated actual income far beyond the silly prices you claim are standard on Naritus and have been questioned (with proof) via links to Naritus specific subforums. I've earned several million credits from space just since hitting 3433 in the Alliance Pilot tree, thanks to the components I put in my X-Wing (earning Ace left little time to even find good shipwright resources, nevermind attempting to sell Shipwright products). The only ship I have that will prolly never pay for itself + components is my Nova Courier, due to the lack of firepower inherent in MP ships (not a Master Shipwright yet, so I had to buy my Nova from a Master Shipwright for 600k).
I won't mention what my B-Wing can do to things fully tricked out (also costing 600k).
Message Edited by Rhysen on 01-17-2005 02:22 PM
If ya dont believe the prices, make a character on naritus and then march straight sourth from coronet and check it out your self at the south coronet mall, or any of the 10 or so shipwrights in that area. Then insert your foot into your mouth.. I cant post links to prices that are not advertised.
- Quite honestly, I don't believe you. I don't believe you've put in any type of effort to scout out prices on Naritus. I believe you find it easier to come here and attempt to stir up trouble to gain more free rides so you don't have to pay anything
- Regardless of whether I believe you or if you're telling the truth, none of your reply addresses the issue being discussed. That issue being that you justify your price of buffswith cost/benefit yet ignore the same in Shipwright.
Nearly every ship and component will pay for themselves. The only ones which prolly won't are the YT-1300, Nova Courier and VT Decimator. Because of the way decay works in JTL, the cost/benefit of a ship & components will far outstrip the cost/benefit of any buff you can give a player as a Doctor. And that is speaking from experience, having an X-Wing and the majority of the components on that X-Wing down to 10 hp from decay while doing Corvette runs. Yet that X-Wing has earned several million credits in space regardless and can continue to do so. While a player will have to see you again in 3.5h, at best, to get another buff.
You attempt to justify the cost of your buffs based on the going rate for Avian meat, despite the fact you by admission harvest it yourself. But according to you, Shipwrights cannot do the same with the resources they use even though we're far more likely to actually purchase the resources than you are. You attempt to justify the cost of your buffs using a cost/benefit analysis, that the buffs increase earning potential. But you blatantly ignore that the same goes for Shipwright components and with the current state of decay (decay not affecting component efficiency after being repair, essentially providing components with indefinate lifetimes).
I summarized this in case a developer is reading this thread and somehow missed the fact that he shouldn't be lending you any credibility whatsoever, Arryth. Ignoring your own actions and their similarity between Shipwright actions because it would inconveniently expose the hypocritical nature of your entire argument is why I would first look out the window to check for myself if you told me the sky was blue.
What he said
Seriously though lets end this flame war, it is totally couterproductive to both sides of the argument, concentrate on teh future
God I sould like a chat show host
But once again you fail to make your point. You assume we are responible for a loot nerf, you assume we called for it like the Wookie strike for armor. You assume we want to do away with loot. You don't seem to be able to point to 1 single post where you here this.
Arryth wrote:
MonsofoLexius wrote:
Put up or shut up. Post the URL's to the posts where shipwrights have asked for an acuall NERF to loot drops. Lets see the posts hu? Or it is more likely that all your arguments are an oppinion you have that is not based in any fact.
And on your 100K profit is too much for an X-wing? so a 1-2 cpu profit is too much for ya hu? Even though a SW might be lucky to sell 2 in one week. And you could go to C-net any time and sell as many buffs as you can stand to sit for??
I am even going to edit in my own response. I spent the time to browse thru most all the SW forums. Know what I noticed? No shipwrights asking for a loot nerf. I did find one post where a poster asked for a loot nerf, BUT he was not even a SW. I found about 8 posts that really were SW talking about loot, and in not one of them did a SW ask for a loot NERF (with the exception of a few posts in our discussion thread). They mostly discuss what to bother crafting and what not too.
What I do see? Are a few posts (more then a few) in the last 2 months by shipwrights making suggestions on how to imporve or add to the loot systems. Or solutions to help make crafted engines (mostly engines) better, more compairable to loot, not a nerf.
So please drop me some URL's to show us this massive push of SW to nerf loot, or realize that we did not ask for it, did not want it, but we get blamed for it never the less
Message Edited by MonsofoLexius on 01-17-2005 12:55 PM
It is a nerf by nutralizeing loot power.. if shipwright parts are all as good as loot.. never said that there is not point to loot. It is a nerf, and several of you have said it.oo so serveral asking for something gets anything done at SOE lol Im not posting here any more, as you shipwrights are oviously in this for one thing, money. I make NOTHING from shipwright anymore, I went private, and a while ago Stay on your boards and we will stay on ours.. hmm lets see 1 MSW, 2 Master Pilots, what am I not qualified for? you Mastered all pilot professions, days in SW ZERO Im only over here because a few of you chumps came over to the Pilot forums crying about loot and decay, and mascerading as pilots, when your shipwrights... Its called conflict of interest.. 2 for 1 sorry If your a shipwright, your point of view is off center to whats good for the pilot profession. And your is not?? The only arguments, demands or requests we will accnoledge from you guys are resourse reductions for your craftables, and a few increses in the power of select parts.. engines and reactors for example. Engines/boosters/capacitors. Nerf.. either by lowering power of loot, or canceling it out, are unaccptable. Never asked to cancel it out, asked to make a few more of our components competitive with NON-RE'd loot.
"Im not posting here any more, as you shipwrights are oviously in this for one thing, money."
Imagine how glad I was when I saw this, since he's been trolling here and the pilot board for days now. My joy was overshadowed by a further 3 posts from him. Sigh. He can't even get that right.
Rhysen wrote:
Arryth wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
Arryth wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
Arryth wrote:
10k is low for naritus and most servers. It is an established price. It is not based in any part on the actual quality of my resourses or my buffs.. If I charged on a bases of resourse cost my buffs would cost more like 15k each.
I hit 2650 per buff for 3 hours and 45 min on all stats (I make all packs identacle) Comparing doc crafting to ship crafting is just silly.. Doc crafting requires vastly more time. Especially because I gather ALL of my own resourses.
The avain I gathered my self would sell for 400 cpu or more on most servers (I gathored 250k of it). SO each buff is a cost of 3240 just in meat, about another 3000 for all the other resourses. so lets say 6500 so far cost per buff... the theirs food.. my total cost per buff/food dose is about 600 credits.. So 7,100 credits is my cost to deliver each buff.. and I make a profit of 2,900 of each one.. Thats not a big return considering the gigantic amount of time invested to get from resourses (eithor bought or gathered). That does not even count the harrassment, and abuse that we have to put up with, which is substantial, and It also assumes you SELL every buff you make.. My actually realized profit per buff is more like 2,000. So i make about a 20% profit. The 25% ive seen sighted by some shipwrights on this forum is alot better then my 20%, and for much less work... Dont think so? Go gather 20k of avian some time.... There are ample oppurtunities for a shipwright to make money in ways other then crafted parts sales... A big one Id like to see is re'd part sales. Get pilot... its free.. and gathor loot.. re it and sell it... the good stuff is worth alot. Plus you can subsadise your shipwright with space money. Every shipwright should also be a master pilot.. and a seasoned one at that... You must know the ins and outs of what ytou sell and their effects in space combat.Unless you're going to say "Every Doctor should be a Master Ranger/Artisan" don't presume to tell people what professions they should be. I'm Ace Alliance pilot and in reaching Ace level, I had to neglect progression in Shipwright. There's only so many hours in a play session and hunting for cheap resources eats a lot of time. Along with crafting substantial amounts of stock.
Now you seem to be able to justify YOUR outrageous inflation of cpu when people question your prices for buffs. But when it comes to Shipwrights, we're greedy. I have a saying "With hypocrisy comes apathy".
You also forget the cost/benifit of the buff.. With that buff much money can be made.. with most ship parts, at the prices that are predomanateing... You will never realize a profit from buying the part, or shipYou do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot, right? You do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot who is using space loot/duty mission rewards to buy the 5m+ resources necessary to grind Shipwright? You do realize you're talking to an Alliance Ace Pilot who is using space loot/duty mission rewards to buy the 5m+ resources necessary to grind Shipwright a second time after dropping Shipwright at 4334, right?
Puh-lease. If it weren't for the components in my X-Wing, duty missions would take forever. But the right guns, with the right reactor (been using the same reactor since x3xx), with the right shield generator (been using the same shield generator since x3xx) lets my X-Wing cut through a duty mission like it's butter. 2-3 full hits to kill a shielded Tier 4 Black Sun. 2 hits to kill an unshielded Tier 4 Tie. About 1 1/2 - 2 hours to complete a duty mission for 300+k in credits. And all that earning potential is because my X-Wing's shields can take the hits from 4-5 Tier 4 NPCs, allowing me to ignore ships on my tail while I tear into what's in front of me. And all that earning potential is because my X-Wing's reactor can support the guns, shields and other components without Reactor Overload. And all that earning potential has generated actual income far beyond the silly prices you claim are standard on Naritus and have been questioned (with proof) via links to Naritus specific subforums. I've earned several million credits from space just since hitting 3433 in the Alliance Pilot tree, thanks to the components I put in my X-Wing (earning Ace left little time to even find good shipwright resources, nevermind attempting to sell Shipwright products). The only ship I have that will prolly never pay for itself + components is my Nova Courier, due to the lack of firepower inherent in MP ships (not a Master Shipwright yet, so I had to buy my Nova from a Master Shipwright for 600k).
I won't mention what my B-Wing can do to things fully tricked out (also costing 600k).
Message Edited by Rhysen on 01-17-2005 02:22 PM
If ya dont believe the prices, make a character on naritus and then march straight sourth from coronet and check it out your self at the south coronet mall, or any of the 10 or so shipwrights in that area. Then insert your foot into your mouth.. I cant post links to prices that are not advertised.
- Quite honestly, I don't believe you. I don't believe you've put in any type of effort to scout out prices on Naritus. I believe you find it easier to come here and attempt to stir up trouble to gain more free rides so you don't have to pay anything
- Regardless of whether I believe you or if you're telling the truth, none of your reply addresses the issue being discussed. That issue being that you justify your price of buffs with cost/benefit yet ignore the same in Shipwright.
Nearly every ship and component will pay for themselves. The only ones which prolly won't are the YT-1300, Nova Courier and VT Decimator. Because of the way decay works in JTL, the cost/benefit of a ship & components will far outstrip the cost/benefit of any buff you can give a player as a Doctor. And that is speaking from experience, having an X-Wing and the majority of the components on that X-Wing down to 10 hp from decay while doing Corvette runs. Yet that X-Wing has earned several million credits in space regardless and can continue to do so. While a player will have to see you again in 3.5h, at best, to get another buff.
You attempt to justify the cost of your buffs based on the going rate for Avian meat, despite the fact you by admission harvest it yourself. But according to you, Shipwrights cannot do the same with the resources they use even though we're far more likely to actually purchase the resources than you are. You attempt to justify the cost of your buffs using a cost/benefit analysis, that the buffs increase earning potential. But you blatantly ignore that the same goes for Shipwright components and with the current state of decay (decay not affecting component efficiency after being repair, essentially providing components with indefinate lifetimes).
I summarized this in case a developer is reading this thread and somehow missed the fact that he shouldn't be lending you any credibility whatsoever, Arryth. Ignoring your own actions and their similarity between Shipwright actions because it would inconveniently expose the hypocritical nature of your entire argument is why I would first look out the window to check for myself if you told me the sky was blue.
I ignore your further panderings to discost cost/benifits of buffs, because you refuse to except the fasct that time has an economical value in the game.. I will not reason with the absurd. As far as paying.. Ive done more then my fair share, to the toon of 12 million to date on ship and components.. So I say again.. Dont believe me.. come and do YOUR home work.. The prices are as I said they were as of Wed night when I did my last roun dof shoping and price checking. I justify my price based on the time/ Go make a set of buffs, harvestying it all your self.. and then learn.. Im currently doing shipwright on one of my toons, so I can see what your all complaining about.
That said.. shipwright is not a starters profession.. If you did not already have a good network of mineing and large resourse stock pile... then your gonna have trouble.. Just like a doctor who starts and thinks he will be able to pick right up and make buffs.. The difference we are talking here is the sheer volume of cash 10k buff vs 400k ship... 400k is alot of money to spend on any one thing for most players. I have a comfortable bank acount built on a year solid of trade in resourses, buffs, meds, loot, and running jaunta missions... as well as my bounty hunter elimanation service. Im makeing these complaints because of the many I have seen who dont want to play jtls because of the costs involved. The few of you here who claim not to gouge.. well good.. you a great few to have around.. but the fact is.. many crafters.. enough to give a bad taste to the profession.. ARE profiteering. I dont just blame them, but the miners also.. and ultamately those who still profit from illeagle duped, or ebay credits. Those are who are to blame for the economy and the prices.. were not in a market economy.. were in an economy vastly inflated by cheats and exploits.. so a little reality here is needed. On a side note.. I really wish soe would take a LONG hard look at any one with over 50 million, also flag any old transfers of large sums or multiple transfers of smaller over time.. and purge the rest of those illeagel creds, but thats a post for another day.. Im not here to start a flame war.. but give blame where blame is due.
Arryth wrote:
If ya dont believe the prices, make a character on naritus and then march straight sourth from coronet and check it out your self at the south coronet mall, or any of the 10 or so shipwrights in that area. Then insert your foot into your mouth.. I cant post links to prices that are not advertised.
OK So I figure maybe the prices there are unreasonable, wanted to try to give ya the benift of the dought. Created a character there and.....
Skor 436 -5387
T4 400K (5 cpu)
T3 300K (5 cpu)
T2 200K (6 cpu)
Lyki -105 -5805
MAS 850K (5.6 cpu)
T4 300K (3.75 A-wing)
Falcon INC -105 -5808
X-wing 125K (100422 mass) (2 cpu)
T4 250K (2.7 CPU)
LAM LYRAM -98 -5808
A-wing 250K (65046 mass) (3.8 cpu)
Agg 325K (4 cpu)
Not bad mass on the A and X wing I think.
Arryth wrote:
I ignore your further panderings to discost cost/benifits of buffs, because you refuse to except the fasct that time has an economical value in the game.. I will not reason with the absurd. As far as paying.. Ive done more then my fair share, to the toon of 12 million to date on ship and components.. So I say again.. Dont believe me.. come and do YOUR home work.. The prices are as I said they were as of Wed night when I did my last roun dof shoping and price checking. I justify my price based on the time/ Go make a set of buffs, harvestying it all your self.. and then learn.. Im currently doing shipwright on one of my toons, so I can see what your all complaining about.
Time has a value, but that value is subjective. You may feel that harvesting Avian meat is worth 400 cpu to you. But other doctors value the time gathering Avian meat much less. None-the-less, the 400 cpu value you assing to gathering the meat is NOT an out-of-pocket expense to you. In the real world, you'd have a hard time trying to justify expenses to the IRS that you couldn't quantify.
You've paid 12 million for ship parts? In another post you said your guild shipwright gives everyone stuff for free...and they still make lots of money selling to people outside the guild. So which is it? Did you buy your components, or were they given to you?
That said.. shipwright is not a starters profession.. If you did not already have a good network of mineing and large resourse stock pile... then your gonna have trouble.. Just like a doctor who starts and thinks he will be able to pick right up and make buffs..
Arguably no crafting profession is a "starters" profession, as you point out with your example of doctor.
The difference we are talking here is the sheer volume of cash 10k buff vs 400k ship... 400k is alot of money to spend on any one thing for most players. I have a comfortable bank acount built on a year solid of trade in resourses, buffs, meds, loot, and running jaunta missions...
And how much of that money was made before solo grouping was nerfed? Since the nerf, the earning potential of space is very competitive with the ground game. Between duty missions and selling loot, it's not uncommon for a non-master pilot to earn a couple hundred thousand credits in an hour.
And if you know what you're doing and have decent parts, decay is practically a non-issue. The only time a ship component takes decay is when it takes damage. But if they never get through your shields and armor, and if your careful with the droid programs you use,then your components and chassis won't take decay. And if you're careful to only PvP in Deep Space, you should never take decay. Compare that to the ground game where your weapons and armor take decay every time you're in combat, not to mention that buffs and food are consumables that provide only temporary benefits.
as well as my bounty hunter elimanation service. Im makeing these complaints because of the many I have seen who dont want to play jtls because of the costs involved. The few of you here who claim not to gouge.. well good.. you a great few to have around.. but the fact is.. many crafters.. enough to give a bad taste to the profession.. ARE profiteering.
GASP! My goodness, someone trying to run a business to actually make a profit! What a horrible crime! Arryth, you make far more profit from buffs than you let on (you forgot tomention that each buff pack only requires 20-30 Avian meat...the rest of the resources are acquired from harvestors). That makes YOU a profiteer as well...and a hyprocrite. If you practiced what you preach to shipwrights, you'd be selling buffs for only a few hundred credits.
There's this thing called a free market economy. In a free market economy, people choose where to shop. If they don't like one crafter's prices, they are free to shop around and find someone cheaper. Despite your feverish conspiracy theories, there's no secret plot by shipwrights to control prices. Guaranteed, if you shop around you will find someone of comparable quality who sells for less. If a shipwright can't sell anything because people keep shopping somewhere else, then sooner or later he's going to lower his prices. That's the way free markets work.
I dont just blame them, but the miners also..
Here's a brillant idea: if pilots can't get enough money in space, they can always use some of their lots to mine and sell resources to shipwrights (or other crafters). They'd make at least enough to cover their equipment purchases, and it wouldn't take that much time to do (as you've so helpfully pointed out before). And with the increased supply of resources, resource prices would drop, thus reducing shipwright's costs. There are plenty of legitmate ways to make money in SWG.
and ultamately those who still profit from illeagle duped, or ebay credits. Those are who are to blame for the economy and the prices.. were not in a market economy.. were in an economy vastly inflated by cheats and exploits.. so a little reality here is needed. On a side note.. I really wish soe would take a LONG hard look at any one with over 50 million, also flag any old transfers of large sums or multiple transfers of smaller over time.. and purge the rest of those illeagel creds, but thats a post for another day.. Im not here to start a flame war.. but give blame where blame is due.
Ah, so anyone with more than 50 million credits is a duper and a cheater?If the game were as inflated as you claim, shipwrights could charge 10 cpu for chassis and no one would think twice about it. According to SOE most of the duped credits where removed, and the duping methods fixed. Prices are already dropping for many goods...and have been dropping for a long time for standard production weapons (despite the improved quality)
Arryth, in another post you accused me of being in favor of a "dictatorship economy" (whatever that means)...but it seems to me you're the one who likes to tell everyone else how to play the game. Look in the mirror next time you accuse someone of being a "dictator".