Shipwright Archive

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PetaByte32 wrote:

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Niacia wrote:

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PetaByte32 wrote:

Then of course there are the crafters in it for the fun of doing it. If its just for fun then they wont care one bit if there are factories. Because hey they just want to have fun.

Tyranus

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Almost right. I am crafting for the fun of it. I do not care about getting rich or the best known crafter, or whatever. But I still like to have more sales then 1 in 10 days. And as a droid engineer I experienced worse.
A sale or 2 or 10 a day, and I am happy. Right now, I am very happy.

I do not believe, I would stay as happy, with full factory support. And the thing is, there simply is no other crafting profession, I could choose, where there are not a few players dominating the market to such a degree, that I still had fun.

In that regard, Shipwright is special. And I want it to stay that way.

Except when you want the FS XP Conversion then you state how similiar it is with the other professions.

And yes, it is very much better, if a player cooperation of 6 or 7 players is dominating the market. This are 6 or 7 SW instaed of just one. If I want, I can become part of such a corporation. This is what a MMORG is about. Playing with other people.

What about the people that dont want to join such a corporation but still want to succeed? Guess thats their problem and they can go get stuffed right?

Regards

Niacia

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Decay will keep shipwrights going. But in answer to your question about how many shipwrights will there be when the demand drops if ever? Only the very few big ones. And factories or not wont matter in this fact.

Tyranus

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TomoRainer wrote:
this was supposed to be a partial expansion of Rhysen's post up there. Didn't count on such a volume of discussion at 5 AM.

Message Edited by TomoRainer on 11-26-2004 05:59 AM

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PetaByte32 wrote:

Thank you. you finally proved my point with pretty much everything you said. Effort is what makes or breaks a shipwright. Not factories. That is the word I was looking for. Factories play no part in this. And having them would still require effort. If the crafter doesnt put in effort in any of the crafting professions he wont succeed. Plain and simple and to the point. Again thanks.

And it isnt about bigtime its about succeeding. Everyone has their own view on what success is. For me its having fun playing a game and doing something I enjoy. Doesnt matter if I am bigtime or not. If I am having fun then I am bigtime to myself.

Oh and my uncle works for GM. The only time those cars are really touched by human hands is when they load the hoppers and when they drive them off. Go to the GM plant if you wanna see. They give tours sometimes. Very interesting. Oh there will be some hands on stuff but its so automated its sickening in a way. Didnt take me 50 years after all. Want some more fun go to japan. They are even more automated. Only reason we arent as automated is because unions wont let them get that way.

Tyranus

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• Item availibiloty (Is the item in stock?)


• Convenience (How far do I have to fly/run/drive to get one)

Factories render the first one negligible.

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Rhysen wrote:

This last part I don't want you to miss:

If it were intended for everyone to be 'big time', there'd beinfinite NPC demand for the products to ensure that everyone reaches 'big time'. As there is no NPC demand, we have to compete with each other for the limited demand that is availible. That competition is primarily carried out via the amount of effort the individual is willing to put into production. So "too bad so sad"? I hate to be blunt but:

You're damn skippy if you don't want to make the effort.

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You know, I don't know muchabout crafting in SWG, but I have played a few other games that had crafter missions that DID demand just that, the player craft "X" amount of something and got a reward for doing so. All the crafter rewards right now (as far as I have seen, if I am wrong, please let know cause this is making me avoid any type of cafting at all) come from BATTLE missions. IMp themepark gives you 2-3 crafting schematics, but you MUST be a fighter of some type to get them o get lucky and buy them from a fighter or of the bazaar later. This probly merits its own thread, and if anyone else wants to take the idea and run with, the starters gun has just sounded.

Points for it:

Missions: Interaction for crafters to get special goodies that pure fighters have NO access to. A reward FOR crafters for CHOOSING their profession.

Item Sink: missions requiring you to craft items for an NPC that aren't going on the bazaar or being used by the NPC's is simply a resource sink that helps keep the total number of items in game down a touch and gives newbie crafters a way to make a little definite money to help fund continuing to craft.

Interaction with the gaming universe for crafters: How cool would it be to build ship parts for the Imperial Navy? Create a few dozen Pistols for a Rebel assault? Build a new Swoop for a prestigious Swoop Gang Leader? Design and outfit and entire dance troupe's wardrobe? Make the Emperor's New Robe's? Okay that last one was just to make you laugh, but seriously, how much Star Wars World interaction do crafter's get?

From what I see, not much. But then again, I destroy that little green droid every time I do a drop and pop on my tertiary skill.

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PetaByte32 wrote:

Effort is still what makes or breaks a shipwright. Even if we had full factory support, if the shipwright doesnt put forth the effort, he wont succeed. Its the same with every single profession out there. Crafter, combat, medical, or entertainer. If you arent willing to put in effort then you wont get anywhere. Disagree all you want but its a fact of life. Not just games but life in general. Making it easier on the guys not willing to put in the effort by limiting factories will not help them. If they wont put in the effort they wont succeed even if you hand it to them on a silver platter. And the guys willing to put in the effort and have the desire are gonna succeed no matter what you do.

Again, by limiting factories all your doing is making road longer. The big combine guilds will still "win" or control the market. They will just do it with a few more shipwrights. So all your doing is delaying the inevitable. Some shipwrights will quit (Already happening alot more then other profs.) and some will just have the small Mom and Pop type vendors that wont ever be able to compete with the big combines. Just like other professions. Factories play no part in this. Its all about effort. Your changing the rules but the effect is still the same.

Tyranus

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Message Edited by Niacia on 11-27-2004 08:53 AM

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Rhysen wrote:

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PetaByte32 wrote:

Thank you. you finally proved my point with pretty much everything you said. Effort is what makes or breaks a shipwright. Not factories. That is the word I was looking for. Factories play no part in this. And having them would still require effort. If the crafter doesnt put in effort in any of the crafting professions he wont succeed. Plain and simple and to the point. Again thanks.

And it isnt about bigtime its about succeeding. Everyone has their own view on what success is. For me its having fun playing a game and doing something I enjoy. Doesnt matter if I am bigtime or not. If I am having fun then I am bigtime to myself.

Oh and my uncle works for GM. The only time those cars are really touched by human hands is when they load the hoppers and when they drive them off. Go to the GM plant if you wanna see. They give tours sometimes. Very interesting. Oh there will be some hands on stuff but its so automated its sickening in a way. Didnt take me 50 years after all. Want some more fun go to japan. They are even more automated. Only reason we arent as automated is because unions wont let them get that way.

Tyranus

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You might like to believe that's what I said. But it's not. Effort currently is what makes or breaks a shipwright. With increased factory support, factories is what can make or break the entire Shipwright profession. Youasked somewhere earlier who would invest 200k steel to make a 1k run of missile packs. Then you say you only usually make 25 at a time.

My factory is currently outputting 100 packs of Image Rec I torpedos. I had considered running off a thousand, having the resources on hand to do so.I rejected that idea. I have the resources to spare, despite grinding Shipwright, to make the run without missing the 375k steel for anything. The effort of moving 2 stacks of resources into the ingredient hopper, loading the schematic and selecting Start is no major bother. Quite simply because my plan is to operate out of a single location, there wouldn't be enough exposure for me justify using that much inventory space in a single vendor (only have Merchant 3000). If I was full Master Merchant I probably would do so, using the extra vendors on different planets to spread out the inventory and maintainingsurplusin each of the local stores to cut down on traveltime/save item space in a single structure. Why not? It's not like they degrade if left sitting.

There are people who have 60+ lots devoted to harvesters thanks to cross-server swaps. If operating on even 50% density resource concentrations, that's 561k resources per day. There were Master Shipwrights on Live within 2 hours of JTL going live, meaning they had the 5m resources necessary to grind MSW on hand and not being utilized for anything, aka sitting idle. You believe that because you make torpedos 25 at a time that nobody else would create a huge factory run ofmax damage experimentedblastersanddrop the crates off in their vendor locations. Thereby creating a mule competitor they log in once a day to restock their vendors you can never outsell because they never seem to run dry of goods?

Because the only significant difference between crafters in a system that restricts the upper limits of item characteristics is:

• Item availibiloty (Is the item in stock?)


• Convenience (How far do I have to fly/run/drive to get one)

Factories render the first one negligible.

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Actually I am one of those people that mastered shipwright the moment the servers came up the first day JTL came out. Now before you starting pointing at me listen up. I gathered all my resources myself. I spent a month buying resources, mining resources, etc. The only thing my guild supplied me was the hardest resource it took me to find. That was steel. I only had close to half what was needed in steel. Everything else I had ready to go. But I also had to beg, borrow, steal, and cheat to get it. Took me a month to gather it all.

Just so you know if we have too, we can field over 100 harvestors. And we have before. Yet I am still having to go outside to get some of my resources. We are mainly a crafting guild. Yet of all the professions we have, my section burns through more resources then all the others combined. I dont have exact numbers but if I took all the resources we used since JTL came out, I could probably master shipwright 100 times. But we do have days where we are clamouring for ore, steel, or some other resource. 100 harvs we can drop if need be, yet we are still getting low all the time.

So anyway. Back to the topic at hand. Basically you want to limit factories because some guys can field alot more harvs or because they have mule characters? Sounds more like a personal problem to me. Dont make everyone else suffer or have to play your way just cause you didnt think of it first or dont know anyone who would help you. If I can put in the effort to get more lots, resources, etc I am gonna succeed no matter what you do to limit me.

Effort is still what makes or breaks a shipwright. Even if we had full factory support, if the shipwright doesnt put forth the effort, he wont succeed. Its the same with every single profession out there. Crafter, combat, medical, or entertainer. If you arent willing to put in effort then you wont get anywhere. Disagree all you want but its a fact of life. Not just games but life in general. Making it easier on the guys not willing to put in the effort by limiting factories will not help them. If they wont put in the effort they wont succeed even if you hand it to them on a silver platter. And the guys willing to put in the effort and have the desire are gonna succeed no matter what you do.

Again, by limiting factories all your doing is making road longer. The big combine guilds will still "win" or control the market. They will just do it with a few more shipwrights. So all your doing is delaying the inevitable. Some shipwrights will quit (Already happening alot more then other profs.) and some will just have the small Mom and Pop type vendors that wont ever be able to compete with the big combines. Just like other professions. Factories play no part in this. Its all about effort. Your changing the rules but the effect is still the same.

Tyranus

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PetaByte32 wrote:

I think the very ironic thing about this thread is how alot of the people posting about no factory support for shipwrights are the same ones that want an FS conversion.

I have been a closet shipwright since JTL launch and will remain so probably forever. I only craft for guildmates cause cant see myself spending a huge amount of time crafting for the general public. I'm probably one of the few master shipwrights/master pilots around. Now to my point.... My view of a typical player is that this player might have 1 house,few articles of clothing, between 5-20 pieces of furniture, few harvesters, 1-4 weapons, all items of which were probably made in a factory. Now lets look at the typical player with JTL... Probably has the same amount of items as the player above, but also having 1-2 ships, and each ship requiring 6-8 components.. That's a possibility of 18total JTLitems, and all of those items HAVE to be hand crafted.Now multiply that times several hundred players and you can now get a sense of how many ships/parts have to be hand made.... Ontop of all of that, the consumables that can be factory run, require to much in resources. Hell, a mark IV missile pack requires 2500 units of resources.. Think about this.....an item that can only be used 10-12 times requires 2500 units of resources... That's 208-250 units of resource PER SHOT! Simply to much.

The demand alone dictates that we need factory support. Almost everytime I login, I get at least 3-4 tells from guildmates thanking their lucky stars I'm online cause they needed a component, missile pack or kit. I am also in contact with a couple SW's that tell me they get tells all the time of people needing parts not on his/her vendors.

At this point in time I don't see shipwright as a profession to truly enjoy because I hear to many of them claiming its allot of "work". And if you asked those SW's if they would like to spend moreon other things, about 90% of them would say yes..

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Niacia wrote:

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PetaByte32 wrote:

I think the very ironic thing about this thread is how alot of the people posting about no factory support for shipwrights are the same ones that want an FS conversion.

I was wondering whether there is some correlation, or wether this observation is only subjective.

Being a scientis in real live, I started looking at the poll. Not having to much time, I just counted the first 4 pages. I only counted statements that gave clear yes or no answers to both questions. So here are the results:

Anti-Factory, Anti Conversion: 12
Pro Factory, Anti Conversion: 4
Anti Factory Pro Conversion: 35
Pro Factorym Pro Conversion: 24
This means, of the 47 Anti Factory people, about 1/4 is anti conversion.
Of the 28 pro factory people, only 4 or 1/7 is anti conversion.

Which means, contrary to the expectation of Peta, the force conversion is even more wanted by the pro factory gang.

Intresting...

Regards

Niacia

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PetaByte32 wrote:

Again, by limiting factories all your doing is making road longer. The big combine guilds will still "win" or control the market. They will just do it with a few more shipwrights. So all your doing is delaying the inevitable. Some shipwrights will quit (Already happening alot more then other profs.) and some will just have the small Mom and Pop type vendors that wont ever be able to compete with the big combines. Just like other professions. Factories play no part in this. Its all about effort. Your changing the rules but the effect is still the same.

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Let me explain how factories do play a part in this whole discussion. You started this thread by saying that you needed to produce 370 items, if you had a factory that would take you very little time, just knock up a few schematics and away you go. As it stands doing teh same thing will require more of your time, making you resent doing it, and potentially stopping someone less dedicated than you from bothering.

If that person had a factory then they would bother and take business from those who don't have those huge stocks of materials on hand to compete on that massive scale.

In order to use factories effectively in a profession like SW, it is the same as Architect, you need large amounts of resources or you may as well not bother. I personally would like to see factory support taken away from architect on all buildings and installations, it would stop those who have stupid amounts of cash or lots producing harvestors by the hundred and allow more people to play architects.

Message Edited by IdleThought on 11-27-2004 02:01 PM