Shipwright Archive

Rhysen,
nice post. And so very true.

Regards

Niacia

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IdleThought wrote:

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PetaByte32 wrote:

You say with full factory support its the person with the most factories who wins. Now its the person with the most shipwrights who wins. Same thing just a longer road.

Tyranus

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You think those two things are the same? You're *really* missing the point.

And maybe factory support will be required for 'the good of the game' in the long run, but there's no screaming crisis yet just a vocal minority that don't like the status quo.

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The vocal minority is how it starts. You think wookies getting armor just all of a sudden happened? One second wookie players were happy then at the exact same moment server wide wookies said "Wait I want armor!"???

And obviously your the one missing the point. The point by the majority is that with factories, the small shipwrights wont have a chance. But I say that now the small shipwright still doesnt have a chance. In fact even less of a chance then before. At least with full factory support professions, a smallcrafter could hit on an awesome schematic that makes them a fortune. And they get big.

Look at other professions and how it works out. On every server with other professions, you got 5 to 6 big time crafters working alone and making a killing. Then you got maybe 50 or so just barely making it. Eventually one of the big fish will drop and a small fish will take their place. But alot will quit.

Now look at how shipwright is turning out. You got 3 or 4 shipwright groups of 3 to 5 SW each working together and making a killing. Then you got maybe 100 small solo shipwrights barely making it. Eventually one of the big time shipwrights will stop and a small shipwright will move up with a few friends. Samething as other professions.

Factories do not decide who will succeed and who will not. What decides this is who has the most desire to succeed. Its all about the desire to succeed. You can stack the deck in favor of small shipwrights all you want. The guy without desire wont make it. You can stack the deck against the big crafting guilds all you want. The guy with desire will still make it through.

I have watched solo newbie players with no guild support move up to be one of, if not the best crafters on a server alot of times. It wasnt factories or no factories that decided this. It was the person's desire to be the best.

Then of course there are the crafters in it for the fun of doing it. If its just for fun then they wont care one bit if there are factories. Because hey they just want to have fun.

Tyranus

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Rhysen wrote:

To answer Tyranus

1. Kuat, Bilbringi and Mandalmotors did have hordes of employees to take the mass produced factory components and assemble them into finished products. KDY was not just Kuat of Kuat. The manpower requirements to create large volumes of items is a factor that is not represented in SWG in any manner whatsoever. If Tyranus wants a better parallel to who he is and who he'd be in the SW Universe, I suggest he look at Shug Ninx first.

Ok again bringing reality into a game isnt right but lets go another round. I am not saying they didnt do some handcrafting. Of course they did. A ship is huge. But if I can pull a 20k mass engine out of a toaster then by god I can pull one out of a factory. Oh and in regards to modern technology most of the parts like engines and in some cases whole cars are made entirely in a factory. Ever hear of robotics?

1. The products manufactured by Kuat, Mandalmotors and Bilbringi took time to produce, with ships capable of taking years. That is a natural precaution against oversaturation of the market. Something not represented here in SWG in the slightest.

Actually its because the sheer magnitude of making a star destroyer would be years. Has nothing to do with precaution against oversaturation. You think the US Navy wouldnt jump at the chance to throw a few raw materials in a tool the size of a microwave and 60 seconds later a battleship pops out? Dude we would have 1000 ships at sea right now. You think the US Air Force wouldnt love that sh!t?

1. None of the shipyards named handled production from mining the resources to manufacturing the components to assembling the components into finished goods. They had to pay credits to acquire what was needed before ever making a sale. Something which is barely represented in SWG through the maintenance cost of the harvesters, as in 'reality' (for lack of a better word) ships could be sold for 1 cpu with a 1000% profit margin over cost to acquire the resources.

Ok um and your point here has what to do with this topic?

1. Kuat of Kuat was never stupid enough to run off 1000 Star Destroyers, stick them in orbit around Kuat and then go off to Naboo for a vacation waiting for them to sell while playing with Twi'lek dancing girls for a month.That wouldrender the money he spent in acquiring the components to manufacture KDY's products useless until sold, while significant continuing costs (all those hordes of employees, taxes, permits ect) would press onto the company funds. Stupidity is well represented in here in SWG throughout the game.

Actually if I remember correctly Kuat of Kuat was a military, police, and company supplier. He didnt HAVE to stick them in orbit around Kuat then go off on a vacation waiting to sell them. He probably had whatever he made sold before it ever left the drawing board. Something we do get here sometimes.

As for 'every businessperson can get modern technology' bit, yes they can.Usually a significant fiscal investment, often resulting in years of debt.Even acommercial grade oven will hit the corner brickoven pizzaria for several thousands of dollars, often requiring them tosecuringa loan from a bank that will take up a large portions of their profits to pay off. These are factors not represented here in SWG.

Yah its called buying your factory deed. You get an Arch and have him make you one.

The time investment required by the limited factory support is a discouragement to people taking a larger portion of the market than they're willing to earn through their efforts. Given your complaints, it seems to be working just fine.

No its not discouraging me. Its encouraging me to get a few more shipwrights to work for me. Oh goody now we got pecking orders and if the shipwright doesnt want to work with other shipwrights then I guess he just FUBARed huh? "Tough luck there bro. You wont work with us so you wont ever be big. Time to crush you and make you change professions. Too bad so sad." Hmmm sounds like the other professions to me.

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The point is factories or no factories will not make or break a shipwright. You can argue all you want but it wont. Already shipwrights are leaving to pursue other things just like the other professions. It will continue until you get to the big 4 or 5 guys doing the job. Same old battle. Just a longer road.

Tyranus

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PetaByte32 wrote:

Then of course there are the crafters in it for the fun of doing it. If its just for fun then they wont care one bit if there are factories. Because hey they just want to have fun.

Tyranus

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Almost right. I am crafting for the fun of it. I do not care about getting rich or the best known crafter, or whatever. But I still like to have more sales then 1 in 10 days. And as a droid engineer I experienced worse.
A sale or 2 or 10 a day, and I am happy. Right now, I am very happy.

I do not believe, I would stay as happy, with full factory support. And the thing is, there simply is no other crafting profession, I could choose, where there are not a few players dominating the market to such a degree, that I still had fun.

In that regard, Shipwright is special. And I want it to stay that way.

And yes, it is very much better, if a player cooperation of 6 or 7 players is dominating the market. This are 6 or 7 SW instaed of just one. If I want, I can become part of such a corporation. This is what a MMORG is about. Playing with other people.

Regards

Niacia

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IdleThought wrote:

Good luck being the vocal minority, as I said maybe in a while factories will be added anyway because the game needs them. Currently I see no need for them, and given evidence or a good compromise I'm willing to change my opinion.

As for Wookiee armour, yes a vocal minority of players made some difference - but they did have the advantage of having a solid case built on the basic numbers involved in combat. It was damn easy to demonstrate that no armour more than counterbalanced the extra stats given the way the game was working at that point.

The benefit of no factories is, as far as I'm concerned, that there will be more shipwrights playing the game that way, because they will be needed to meet the demand and the rewards for playing a shipwright will be sufficient to tempt them.

That's it as far as I'm concerned.. it's not about 'winning' shipwright, it's not directly about letting new players into the market or keeping unviable little operations open - it's about maximising the chances for the players who want to to play some useful part of the Shipwright part of game. And maybe some will play that out by being on their own and keeping a low stock for a small loyal customer base, maybe some will club together to form guilds in an attempt to create a big combine. That's good too because more people get to play as SW, and it's a social part of the game and people are having fun. (Ok maybe they're in over their heads and can't keep up with the demand - they can hire help, find partners, up prices or buy in stock, improve their organisation, specialise, partner with another group out of town.. there are other ways to approach the problem).

Now, there's obviously a big initial surge of SW demand and not that much convincing evidence it isn't being met - so any overwork now you might be seeing doesn't mean it will be like this in a few months time, could be in a few months time factories aren't the concern but the loot drop rates and the chassis decay are the things that are burning issues. Perhaps though it will be the lack of supply of parts and chassis and you'll have a decent case for adding factories.

It's much harder to take them out than put them in.. give it a chance.

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Actually sorry but shipwrights are already starting to quit. So it isnt helping to keep them. There will be a dropoff. Right now alot of shipwrights are needed. Once it levels off so will the need for shipwrights and even more will quit. Then you will have the 2 or 3 big combines ruling the whole thing and the lowly new shipwright or small shipwright wont be able to compete like you think they will be able too. Guess what? Just like other professions and having or not having factories will have nothing to say about it.

You guys are making arguments that in all honesty factories have nothing to do with. Its all about playstyle and factories or not wont matter. So why keep fighting? If there are factories its not gonna hurt you or anyone else against them. Yet you still fight.

Tyranus

Another thing:
What do you believe will be the demand for shipwright components in half a year?

My prediction is a very significiant drop in demand.

By then, the combat revamp will probably be out. What does this mean? People will play the ground game, not space. The demand for ship parts will drop.

It is starting already. People getting bored with flying. Too little content for master pilots. Sure, they are going to add content, but slowly. So new ground content will draw pilots out of space.

So demand will drop.

Question is, how many SWs will there be by then? This one is very hard to answer. And it is then, when the devs have to decide, whether factory support is needed, so the remaining few shipwrights can meet the demand, or whether those shipwrights are bored, because there is too little demand.

I truely hope, Styx is getting the OK to publish the devs statement on the factory situation.

Regards

Niacia

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PetaByte32 wrote:

You guys are making arguments that in all honesty factories have nothing to do with. Its all about playstyle and factories or not wont matter. So why keep fighting? If there are factories its not gonna hurt you or anyone else against them. Yet you still fight.

Tyranus

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This one is easy to answer. I believe, factories or no factories is making a huge difference. I believe factories would hurt me big time.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe you are wrong. Only time will tell. And only, if it keeps no factory.

Regards

Niacia

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Niacia wrote:

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PetaByte32 wrote:

Then of course there are the crafters in it for the fun of doing it. If its just for fun then they wont care one bit if there are factories. Because hey they just want to have fun.

Tyranus

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Almost right. I am crafting for the fun of it. I do not care about getting rich or the best known crafter, or whatever. But I still like to have more sales then 1 in 10 days. And as a droid engineer I experienced worse.
A sale or 2 or 10 a day, and I am happy. Right now, I am very happy.

I do not believe, I would stay as happy, with full factory support. And the thing is, there simply is no other crafting profession, I could choose, where there are not a few players dominating the market to such a degree, that I still had fun.

In that regard, Shipwright is special. And I want it to stay that way.

Except when you want the FS XP Conversion then you state how similiar it is with the other professions.

And yes, it is very much better, if a player cooperation of 6 or 7 players is dominating the market. This are 6 or 7 SW instaed of just one. If I want, I can become part of such a corporation. This is what a MMORG is about. Playing with other people.

What about the people that dont want to join such a corporation but still want to succeed? Guess thats their problem and they can go get stuffed right?

Regards

Niacia

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Decay will keep shipwrights going. But in answer to your question about how many shipwrights will there be when the demand drops if ever? Only the very fewbig ones. And factories or not wont matter in this fact.

Tyranus

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PetaByte32 wrote:

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IdleThought wrote:

Good luck being the vocal minority, as I said maybe in a while factories will be added anyway because the game needs them. Currently I see no need for them, and given evidence or a good compromise I'm willing to change my opinion.


...

It's much harder to take them out than put them in.. give it a chance.

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Actually sorry but shipwrights are already starting to quit. So it isnt helping to keep them. There will be a dropoff. Right now alot of shipwrights are needed. Once it levels off so will the need for shipwrights and even more will quit. Then you will have the 2 or 3 big combines ruling the whole thing and the lowly new shipwright or small shipwright wont be able to compete like you think they will be able too. Guess what? Just like other professions and having or not having factories will have nothing to say about it.

You guys are making arguments that in all honesty factories have nothing to do with. Its all about playstyle and factories or not wont matter. So why keep fighting? If there are factories its not gonna hurt you or anyone else against them. Yet you still fight.

Tyranus

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You're forgetting, you're the one looking for a change not 'us', you need to make the case *for* the change, to convince the vocal minority to become a majority.

I've said I don't take the position of 'Over my dead body' but 'I'm not a believer, show me an argument, preferably with evidence'. It's not really about our arguments against, it's about your arguments for.

Certainly from what you've just said, you case is best served by waiting quietly and standing up once all the SW's have quit everyone's clamouring for components and you can step up and say 'Perhaps it's time to introduce factories'.

I haven't been convinced there is a problem yet, let alone that factories are the solution.

Furthermore, what we should be aiming for with SWG is an economy that works better than the real world's. Assuming we're going with a capitalist system, what we'd want isn't the almost completely free market of the United States and certain other industrialized nations, but one that's closer to a meritocracy--an economy where those who work hard, create a better product, or find their niche can stake themselves out a market. The problem with a market that's too free is that when a corporation reaches a certain level of power--in capital, employees, brand recognition, suppliers, market share, etc.--that power itself will begin to carry them forward even if the quality of their product begins to slip. And the larger a company gets, the more difficult it becomes to challenge them, until a handful of the richest corporations will control a huge majority of the market, and while there might be competition and innovation between those few, the ability of new companies to break into this power structure--no matter how deserving their brand--becomes limited to the point of futility. In a market that begins too free, the end result will be a system closed to all but those who established themselves first.

In SWG, the lack of full shipwright factories places strict upper limits on how much money any single SW can make, but this market regulation will insure that the broader starship economy is kept freer to challenges from new crafters and new business practices. And by flattening the levels of stratification between the richest and poorest, inflation will be kept lower, something that's become a serious concern for the devs and huge numbers of poorer players.

Writing all these economic treatises is starting to make me feel like a dunce, but my point here is we shouldn't duplicate every business practice of the real world. The SWG economy can and should be given limitations to slow down the collection of wealth and power by the few and increase the flow of credits among the many, while still allowing those who put in the time and effort in their craft to see a real financial benefit. Our current factory system plays a huge role in this balance, and I would hate to see it go before it's given a chance to work.

Edit: this was supposed to be a partial expansion of Rhysen's post up there. Didn't count on such a volume of discussion at 5 AM.

Message Edited by TomoRainer on 11-26-2004 05:59 AM

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PetaByte32 wrote:

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Rhysen wrote:

To answer Tyranus

1. Kuat, Bilbringi and Mandalmotors did have hordes of employees to take the mass produced factory components and assemble them into finished products. KDY was not just Kuat of Kuat. The manpower requirements to create large volumes of items is a factor that is not represented in SWG in any manner whatsoever. If Tyranus wants a better parallel to who he is and who he'd be in the SW Universe, I suggest he look at Shug Ninx first.

Ok again bringing reality into a game isnt right but lets go another round. I am not saying they didnt do some handcrafting. Of course they did. A ship is huge. But if I can pull a 20k mass engine out of a toaster then by god I can pull one out of a factory. Oh and in regards to modern technology most of the parts like engines and in some cases whole cars are made entirely in a factory. Ever hear of robotics?

1. The products manufactured by Kuat, Mandalmotors and Bilbringi took time to produce, with ships capable of taking years. That is a natural precaution against oversaturation of the market. Something not represented here in SWG in the slightest.

Actually its because the sheer magnitude of making a star destroyer would be years. Has nothing to do with precaution against oversaturation. You think the US Navy wouldnt jump at the chance to throw a few raw materials in a tool the size of a microwave and 60 seconds later a battleship pops out? Dude we would have 1000 ships at sea right now. You think the US Air Force wouldnt love that sh!t?

1. None of the shipyards named handled production from mining the resources to manufacturing the components to assembling the components into finished goods. They had to pay credits to acquire what was needed before ever making a sale. Something which is barely represented in SWG through the maintenance cost of the harvesters, as in 'reality' (for lack of a better word) ships could be sold for 1 cpu with a 1000% profit margin over cost to acquire the resources.

Ok um and your point here has what to do with this topic?

1. Kuat of Kuat was never stupid enough to run off 1000 Star Destroyers, stick them in orbit around Kuat and then go off to Naboo for a vacation waiting for them to sell while playing with Twi'lek dancing girls for a month.That wouldrender the money he spent in acquiring the components to manufacture KDY's products useless until sold, while significant continuing costs (all those hordes of employees, taxes, permits ect) would press onto the company funds. Stupidity is well represented in here in SWG throughout the game.

Actually if I remember correctly Kuat of Kuat was a military, police, and company supplier. He didnt HAVE to stick them in orbit around Kuat then go off on a vacation waiting to sell them. He probably had whatever he made sold before it ever left the drawing board. Something we do get here sometimes.

As for 'every businessperson can get modern technology' bit, yes they can.Usually a significant fiscal investment, often resulting in years of debt.Even acommercial grade oven will hit the corner brickoven pizzaria for several thousands of dollars, often requiring them tosecuringa loan from a bank that will take up a large portions of their profits to pay off. These are factors not represented here in SWG.

Yah its called buying your factory deed. You get an Arch and have him make you one.

The time investment required by the limited factory support is a discouragement to people taking a larger portion of the market than they're willing to earn through their efforts. Given your complaints, it seems to be working just fine.

No its not discouraging me. Its encouraging me to get a few more shipwrights to work for me. Oh goody now we got pecking orders and if the shipwright doesnt want to work with other shipwrights then I guess he just FUBARed huh? "Tough luck there bro. You wont work with us so you wont ever be big. Time to crush you and make you change professions. Too bad so sad." Hmmm sounds like the other professions to me.

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The point is factories or no factories will not make or break a shipwright. You can argue all you want but it wont. Already shipwrights are leaving to pursue other things just like the other professions. It will continue until you get to the big 4 or 5 guys doing the job. Same old battle. Just a longer road.

Tyranus

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1. Kuat, Bilbringi and Madalmotors is reality? When did I miss that?


2. Please feel free to show me a fully automated automobile plant. I'll wait. It should only take you,,,oh, 50 or 60 years at the current rate of progress.


3. No, I'm fairly certain the US Navy wouldn't jump at the chance to do something like that. Or rather whatever current sitting President wouldn't allow them to cause such widescale harm the US economy by instantly putting such a large portion of the workforce into unemployment. We've had a few crooks in the Oval Office butI don't remember any being suicidal, especially not politically suicidal. But that's a whole different issue entirely.


4. The point was that its impossible for a single individual or even an corporate entity to handle large scale production entirely in house. It's cost prohibitive and thereby places natural restraints on how many products they can put on the market. In SWG an individual can handle production from resource acquisition to finished product on the market, eliminating the natural restraints of oversaturation via interdepenancy. Something Shipwright intentionally lacks.


5. Now we're getting silly. If you want to argue the inner operations of a fictional company that neither of us can prove to be correct or incorrect, you can do it alone. What I do know is that mass production costs significant investment, something not represented in SWG. Needless to say I doubt anyone, fictional or otherwise, would fully pay for a large ticket item upfront before delivery which would require some cash out of pocket on the part of the manufacturer.


6. What I also know is that similiar products have greatly varying characteristics based on manufacturer, which creates demand for the characteristics each manufacturer creates. Both Ford and Dodge make trucks but the similiarity ends at the characteristics that qualify them to fit in the Truck category, creating demand for the individual products made by both manufacturers. That is something else not represented in SWG as the only difference between 2 Master Shipwrights and the products they're capable of producing has absolutely nothing to do with any skills in the Shipwright skill tree. Your biggest influence on finished products to make them stand out from the products of other manufacturers? Cute names because anyone with your skill amount can make the exact same type product, with differences in characteristic caused by randomness (assembly/experimentational rolls) being minute enough to be ignore. And you're unknowingly attempting to eliminate even those minor differences by demanding more factory support, wherea manufacturer can attempt to make the 'perfect' schematic before creating a factory run.


7. You call buying a factory deed an investment? I get that you don't like real world analogies but really. That's like buying a car to deliver pizzas and paying off the entire car note in the first 2 deliveries. A couple crates of missiles will cover the costs.

This last part I don't want you to miss:

If it were intended for everyone to be 'big time', there'd beinfinite NPC demand for the products to ensure that everyone reaches 'big time'. As there is no NPC demand, we have to compete with each other for the limited demand that is availible. That competition is primarily carried out via the amount of effort the individual is willing to put into production. So "too bad so sad"? I hate to be blunt but:

You're damn skippy if you don't want to make the effort.

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Rhysen wrote:

---

PetaByte32 wrote:

---

Rhysen wrote:

To answer Tyranus

1. Kuat, Bilbringi and Mandalmotors did have hordes of employees to take the mass produced factory components and assemble them into finished products. KDY was not just Kuat of Kuat. The manpower requirements to create large volumes of items is a factor that is not represented in SWG in any manner whatsoever. If Tyranus wants a better parallel to who he is and who he'd be in the SW Universe, I suggest he look at Shug Ninx first.

Ok again bringing reality into a game isnt right but lets go another round. I am not saying they didnt do some handcrafting. Of course they did. A ship is huge. But if I can pull a 20k mass engine out of a toaster then by god I can pull one out of a factory. Oh and in regards to modern technology most of the parts like engines and in some cases whole cars are made entirely in a factory. Ever hear of robotics?

1. The products manufactured by Kuat, Mandalmotors and Bilbringi took time to produce, with ships capable of taking years. That is a natural precaution against oversaturation of the market. Something not represented here in SWG in the slightest.

Actually its because the sheer magnitude of making a star destroyer would be years. Has nothing to do with precaution against oversaturation. You think the US Navy wouldnt jump at the chance to throw a few raw materials in a tool the size of a microwave and 60 seconds later a battleship pops out? Dude we would have 1000 ships at sea right now. You think the US Air Force wouldnt love that sh!t?

1. None of the shipyards named handled production from mining the resources to manufacturing the components to assembling the components into finished goods. They had to pay credits to acquire what was needed before ever making a sale. Something which is barely represented in SWG through the maintenance cost of the harvesters, as in 'reality' (for lack of a better word) ships could be sold for 1 cpu with a 1000% profit margin over cost to acquire the resources.

Ok um and your point here has what to do with this topic?

1. Kuat of Kuat was never stupid enough to run off 1000 Star Destroyers, stick them in orbit around Kuat and then go off to Naboo for a vacation waiting for them to sell while playing with Twi'lek dancing girls for a month.That wouldrender the money he spent in acquiring the components to manufacture KDY's products useless until sold, while significant continuing costs (all those hordes of employees, taxes, permits ect) would press onto the company funds. Stupidity is well represented in here in SWG throughout the game.

Actually if I remember correctly Kuat of Kuat was a military, police, and company supplier. He didnt HAVE to stick them in orbit around Kuat then go off on a vacation waiting to sell them. He probably had whatever he made sold before it ever left the drawing board. Something we do get here sometimes.

As for 'every businessperson can get modern technology' bit, yes they can.Usually a significant fiscal investment, often resulting in years of debt.Even acommercial grade oven will hit the corner brickoven pizzaria for several thousands of dollars, often requiring them tosecuringa loan from a bank that will take up a large portions of their profits to pay off. These are factors not represented here in SWG.

Yah its called buying your factory deed. You get an Arch and have him make you one.

The time investment required by the limited factory support is a discouragement to people taking a larger portion of the market than they're willing to earn through their efforts. Given your complaints, it seems to be working just fine.

No its not discouraging me. Its encouraging me to get a few more shipwrights to work for me. Oh goody now we got pecking orders and if the shipwright doesnt want to work with other shipwrights then I guess he just FUBARed huh? "Tough luck there bro. You wont work with us so you wont ever be big. Time to crush you and make you change professions. Too bad so sad." Hmmm sounds like the other professions to me.

---

The point is factories or no factories will not make or break a shipwright. You can argue all you want but it wont. Already shipwrights are leaving to pursue other things just like the other professions. It will continue until you get to the big 4 or 5 guys doing the job. Same old battle. Just a longer road.

Tyranus

---

1. Kuat, Bilbringi and Madalmotors is reality? When did I miss that?


2. Please feel free to show me a fully automated automobile plant. I'll wait. It should only take you,,,oh, 50 or 60 years at the current rate of progress.


3. No, I'm fairly certain the US Navy wouldn't jump at the chance to do something like that. Or rather whatever current sitting President wouldn't allow them to cause such widescale harm the US economy by instantly putting such a large portion of the workforce into unemployment. We've had a few crooks in the Oval Office butI don't remember any being suicidal, especially not politically suicidal. But that's a whole different issue entirely.


4. The point was that its impossible for a single individual or even an corporate entity to handle large scale production entirely in house. It's cost prohibitive and thereby places natural restraints on how many products they can put on the market. In SWG an individual can handle production from resource acquisition to finished product on the market, eliminating the natural restraints of oversaturation via interdepenancy. Something Shipwright intentionally lacks.


5. Now we're getting silly. If you want to argue the inner operations of a fictional company that neither of us can prove to be correct or incorrect, you can do it alone. What I do know is that mass production costs significant investment, something not represented in SWG. Needless to say I doubt anyone, fictional or otherwise, would fully pay for a large ticket item upfront before delivery which would require some cash out of pocket on the part of the manufacturer.


6. What I also know is that similiar products have greatly varying characteristics based on manufacturer, which creates demand for the characteristics each manufacturer creates. Both Ford and Dodge make trucks but the similiarity ends at the characteristics that qualify them to fit in the Truck category, creating demand for the individual products made by both manufacturers. That is something else not represented in SWG as the only difference between 2 Master Shipwrights and the products they're capable of producing has absolutely nothing to do with any skills in the Shipwright skill tree. Your biggest influence on finished products to make them stand out from the products of other manufacturers? Cute names because anyone with your skill amount can make the exact same type product, with differences in characteristic caused by randomness (assembly/experimentational rolls) being minute enough to be ignore. And you're unknowingly attempting to eliminate even those minor differences by demanding more factory support, wherea manufacturer can attempt to make the 'perfect' schematic before creating a factory run.


7. You call buying a factory deed an investment? I get that you don't like real world analogies but really. That's like buying a car to deliver pizzas and paying off the entire car note in the first 2 deliveries. A couple crates of missiles will cover the costs.

This last part I don't want you to miss:

If it were intended for everyone to be 'big time', there'd beinfinite NPC demand for the products to ensure that everyone reaches 'big time'. As there is no NPC demand, we have to compete with each other for the limited demand that is availible. That competition is primarily carried out via the amount of effort the individual is willing to put into production. So "too bad so sad"? I hate to be blunt but:

You're damn skippy if you don't want to make the effort.

---

Thank you. you finally proved my point with pretty much everything you said. Effort is what makes or breaks a shipwright. Not factories. That is the word I was looking for. Factories play no part in this. And having them would still require effort. If the crafter doesnt put in effort in any of the crafting professions he wont succeed. Plain and simple and to the point. Again thanks.

And it isnt about bigtime its about succeeding. Everyone has their own view on what success is. For me its having fun playing a game and doing something I enjoy. Doesnt matter if I am bigtime or not. If I am having fun then I am bigtime to myself.

Oh and my uncle works for GM. The only time those cars are really touched by human hands is when they load the hoppers and when they drive them off. Go to the GM plant if you wanna see. They give tours sometimes. Very interesting. Oh there will be some hands on stuff but its so automated its sickening in a way. Didnt take me 50 years after all. Want some more fun go to japan. They are even more automated. Only reason we arent as automated is because unions wont let them get that way.

Tyranus