CUEmu - Thread Posts

WTS

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:27 pm

i only have a small request regarding factory support: let armor be treated as a consumable like missiles and chafe and be made in a factory. all other components can stay being handmade as they are now.

Arandis
Master Smuggler (Imperial FP for 125 credits each)
Agathon
12 point MDE, 12 point MAS, 14 point Master Artisan

Vendors at -3979 3643 Naboo, outside Theed

neutrineaux

Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:02 am

#67

I voted against increased factory support. A substancial majority did likewise. In a US presidential election, that margin would be called a landslide victory, but this is not a scientifically valid poll, either. And that does not take into account the fact that if you are busy crafting, you are notcruising the forums, so my guess is that if you could actually poll every shipwright, the margin would be greater. But that is just a guess, and it is good to discuss it, too. As for me, I only look at the forums when I have a specific question, or the servers are down. Otherwise, I play.

One important point that gets glossed over sometimes is that we have factory support. We are not doing without. It simply has has limits. We clearly do not need an increased level of factory support at this time. It would be a luxury, and a luxury which would be a detriment, as well, in my opinion. But pilots are getting into space and finding the parts they need there and on the ground. So increased factory support is not needed, but a convenience desired by a sector of shipwrights. If it were a clear and obvious need, you would not see even a sizable minority petitioning for things to remain as they are.

The main reason I support continuing the current model isthat by making each finished part hand crafted, several advantages occur. First, exceptional parts are worth more, since they do not become schematics for gigantic factory runs, and remain truly "exceptional". Second, less than exceptional parts have more value than they would otherwise, since gigantic factory runs of exceptional parts are not available. Large runs of super parts make everything else undesirable.

Third, each shipwright has a good demand for his production, not just the ones with big factory operations and multiserver harvesting operations and/or multiple accounts, who have vendors burgeoning with inventory. You cannot "farm" and make more than you can make with reasonable efforts among you and a few friends to harvest and craft. At least it is much more tedious to do so. It is much harder to flood the market, so prices stay at a more reasonable level long term and give the little guy a shot.

Fourth, with things as they are now, many shipwrights are needed. Being needed is a nice thing. And multiple sources for ship parts leads to a more diverse and vibrant economy. More people prosper, and more prosperous people shop and spend in a broader array of locations than a few super wealthy ones would. If demand remains high compared to production, more people will go into shipwright, seeing a reasonable opportunity to be successful. This is a good thing.

It is not a bad thing that people have to look around for product. It is not a bad thing that you sell all you make and it gets used instead of languishing in a vendor. These are GOOD things. Ask any business person: selling all you can make is good! And there is more player interaction as a byproduct, which is also good.

Let me say also that I believe that a decision in this matter should not be based soley on what shipwrights want, but rather also on what pilots need from shipwrights. After things reach equilibrium, then, and only then, should we assess the needs of pilots, and whether shipwrights can meet those needs without increased factory support. If the need simply cannot be met without increased support, a minor, step-wise increase should be tried, such as adding mark I factory support, rather than a sweeping change.

As for issues regarding play style, I do not see actually building the parts as "sucking up my play time." This is the only profession where you must actually play the part of an artisan. All other crafting profs simply spend a few minutes making schematics for each factory run of 1000 parts. I know -- I have done it too. With shipwright, you need to like crafting as a major part of your game play time. I do. But with increased factory support, I will not be able to compete with the schematic/lot swap/multi-account crowd without adoptiong their tactics, which i am not prepared to do. If you want to fly or fight or adventure, that is cool, but that is not a reason to make shipwright an automated assembly line. It just means that someone else gets to sell a part, too. So have fun doing other stuff, but realize that it represents a choice as to how you spend your time. If you feel that you are "wasting all your play time" crafting ship parts, you should really think about doing something else. News flash! You do not have to supply everyone or have a full inventory at all times to have a successful shipwright business! Other people want to sell stuff, too! Take a break and do something else and let us all have a piece of the pie!

The only reasons for increased factory support (in my view) boil down to increased cash-flow for big operators and decreased time spent actually playing the part of a shipwright. And really, there are plenty of other professions where you can flex your industrial muscle for fun and profit.

Saying that no one is forced to use factories fails to address the reality of other professions: if you want to have a successful business, you too must do the factory dance if others are doing it. And even if you eschew the factory for a small business and make it work (as does occur rarely), you cannot deny that the presence of factory support will have a profound effect on the economy for everyone, factory users and non-users alike. It clearly introduces another hurtle to the new shipwright trying to get underway, and it disconnects the effort-invested = return-on-investment equation.

It is true that limited factory support limits the play styles that work for shipwright. But this is no different than other crafting professions -- you must play a certain way if you wish to have a successful enterprise in this model. Only a few "ways" of playing actually work very well for most people. In weaponsmith or armorsmith or chef, that means factory runs. Not having large scale factory support for SW makes for more varied play options for everyone in a broader sense. Think of an analogy in other professions: maybe I want to be a master commando, but i also want the advantages of master combat medic. Not having those advantages limits my play style. But I have to make a choice. Not really any different here. Fairness does not equal equality. Just because other crafting professions have more factory support does not mean it is unfair for us to have less.

Limiting the size of schematics or increasing factory output times would only further skew things towards lot-swappers and those with multiple accounts, who can run multiple simultaneous schematics. If more items are factory craftable, production time increases and limited number schematics will do little if anything to stop the flooding of the market. It will take a little longer to get there, is the only difference. They would actually simply shift things more towards those who choose to manipulate the system beyond their own galaxy or to those who can afford several accounts.

My suggestion for compromise would be to make no change at all at this time. Wait 3-6 months before evaluating whether non-shipwrights NEED shipwrights to have increased production capability, and decide to some degree based on that need. But remember that one definition of "compromised" is "failure." Any increase in factory support will result in a decrease in the number of shipwrights. If one person can make 10 or 25 or 100 or 1000 parts while not even logged in, you simply will not need as many people to meet demand.

Often times there is actually a right way vs. other ways. In this case the devs -- as much as it pains me to admit it -- got it right on.

no, wait, i saw this game... "pong" i think it was called. it was really easy to understand! maybe you could make swg more like pong! think of it! fast paced action! iconic characters! MORE FUN!

CerionSkydreamer

Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:11 pm

#68

styx66 wrote:
This thread is for the issue of factory support.

The poll showed a slight majority in favor of no change to factory support, but a significant number of you believe there should be some change.

So in this thread, please:

(Optional) State what way you voted (or would have voted) in the poll.
(Optional) Why you voted (or would have voted) this way.
If you believe factory support should be increased, please state how you think this would be best achieved with minimal reprocussions to those on the other side of the issue.
If you believe factory support should not be increased, please provide (if any) proposals you would be willing to compromise on.
PLEASE do not start major arguments or flame wars here. This post will be deleted and/or restarted if it gets out of hand. This will be a post the devs eyes will see, so lets make it good.
Also, I have a dev statement about why factories are the way they are. I will post when I get the OK.
Message Edited by styx66 on 11-25-2004 01:34 AM

I voted No further factory support. This reduces 'mule' crafters who craft only for the quick credit. It also reduces huge guild's potential to monopolize the market.

And for the devs consideration, it also limits the ability of RL credit sellers to exploit the wealth of JtL.

As for compromise, I'm inclined to follow the opinion of the above poster who stated that, as a majority opinion, we should entertain compromise options from the minority opinion, and not vice versa. Reducing schematic size isn't a viable option as multiple lots and x-server lot swaps defeats the effectiveness of this limitation.

To me, the only viable compromise would be a reduction in quality of the factory-produced product. But then this creates another layer of quality competing with looted components and handcrafted.

My firm opinion is that the devs actaully hit the nail squarily on the head with SW factory support, and thus doesn't need much tweak at all.

Now if the devs want to make a few components virtually disposable such as armor and boosters, having these things wear out faster, then I could see factory support for them as well.

b Vist the NEW JEDI HOLOCRON -- Naboo -3246, 3984 Kauri Galaxy--CLOSED! R
If I had my choice, I'd still be a Creature Handler.
Instead, all I got was this lousy padawan robe.

certifiedandrew

Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:25 pm

#69

styx66 wrote:

This thread is for the issue of factory support.

The poll showed a slight majority in favor of no change to factory support, but a significant number of you believe there should be some change.

So in this thread, please:

(Optional) State what way you voted (or would have voted) in the poll.

(Optional) Why you voted (or would have voted) this way.

I voted yes, because handcrafting thousands of components is a real pain.

If you believe factory support should be increased, please state how you think this would be best achieved with minimal reprocussions to those on the other side of the issue.

The "time per item" should be pretty high. I think a 300-400 second timer would be reasonable. Given that wewould bethrowing away THOUSANDS of premium resources in order to make, for example, a Mark 5 schematic, I think factory support is a completely legitimate request.

If you believe factory support should not be increased, please provide (if any) proposals you would be willing to compromise on.

*edited by admin*

certifiedandrew

Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:31 am

#70

Niacia wrote:

certifiedandrew wrote:

Given that we would be throwing away THOUSANDS of premium resources in order to make, for example, a Mark 5 schematic, I think factory support is a completely legitimate request.

This depends on your mode of operation. If you keep only the best components and throw away any critical fails on experimentation, you actually save resources by making larger factory runs.

This is why I say, that factories give an advantage in cost and/or quality.

Regards

Niacia

I can't see the logic of throwing them away. Cut down the price accordingly and put them on a discount vendor. I do, and I still sell them.

*edited by admin*

Niacia

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:15 am

#71

certifiedandrew wrote:

Niacia wrote:
certifiedandrew wrote:

Given that we would be throwing away THOUSANDS of premium resources in order to make, for example, a Mark 5 schematic, I think factory support is a completely legitimate request.

This depends on your mode of operation. If you keep only the best components and throw away any critical fails on experimentation, you actually save resources by making larger factory runs.

This is why I say, that factories give an advantage in cost and/or quality.

Regards

Niacia
I can't see the logic of throwing them away. Cut down the price accordingly and put them on a discount vendor. I do, and I still sell them.

Right you are. But the reason you sell them, is that there is no factory support...
With factory support, you probably would not be able to sell those comps.

And even now, there are some crafters who throw those components away..

Regards

Niacia

MonsofoLexius

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:24 am

#72

(Optional) State what way you voted (or would have voted) in the poll. I would have voted for increased factory support

(Optional) Why you voted (or would have voted) this way. I feel that, just as every other crafting profession does have, that making factory runs and stocking vendors is part of SWG crafting. It is unfortunately obvious that SOE looks at Shipwright different than any other crafting profession.

If you believe factory support should be increased, please state how you think this would be best achieved with minimal reprocussions to those on the other side of the issue. I don't see how having to hand crafting most every item allows players to effectively serve customers. I think that SW should be setup like every other crafting profession from Artisan. Why reinvent the wheel? I think the customer interaction workes just fine for all the other crafting professions. i.e. I met a tailor the other day (I moved to a new area) and wanted to get some clothing to go along with my pilot jacket. We talked about colors, styles, etc and are working on a custom wardrobe.

I don't see how increasing factory support will hurt those that don't want to do factory runs of armor or other items.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- In rememberance of our friend, Luckky Johnson (Toni Sinclair)
"Every day I feel like I am opening a present when
I double-click the SWG icon"-Vorpaks
Thanks bud...now, about the Garment habit of yours. You need an intervention! - Calculus_Entropy /flex - n'Jessi
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MonsofoLexius

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:34 am

#73

DingoBoi wrote:

If factory support goes in on any major level.. it will kill my 250M credits thus far business. I'm in an out of the way location on naboo but people travel to me because I am well stocked. If they can get that same stock anywhere, i'm sunk. Well done on the business!!

/vote NO on factory support I disagree

ps: i've barely left my shop since launch and this is why.... but if you don't want to spend the time crafting, then don't... just do custom orders. Don't expect to steal my profits because you want to cry about no factory support and how you can't be uber. Why is it ok that SW is only viable to players who have the time and are willing to devote 100% of thier playing time just to SW?? This goes against how the crafting system is set up for all the other professions?

however, I might give a nod to extremely limited support as above. Just make everthing factory produced inferior

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- In rememberance of our friend, Luckky Johnson (Toni Sinclair)
"Every day I feel like I am opening a present when
I double-click the SWG icon"-Vorpaks
Thanks bud...now, about the Garment habit of yours. You need an intervention! - Calculus_Entropy /flex - n'Jessi
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Niacia

Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:30 pm

#74

certifiedandrew wrote:

Given that we would be throwing away THOUSANDS of premium resources in order to make, for example, a Mark 5 schematic, I think factory support is a completely legitimate request.

This depends on your mode of operation. If you keep only the best components and throw away any critical fails on experimentation, you actually save resources by making larger factory runs.

This is why I say, that factories give an advantage in cost and/or quality.

Regards

Niacia

RedDestinyCC

Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:19 pm

#75

(Optional) State what way you voted (or would have voted) in the poll.

(Optional) Why you voted (or would have voted) this way.

Factory support consistent with other professions. And even there, factory support increased across the board to allow free utilization of schematics (limited by resource availability, not schematic caps). Allow us to make our production runs as we see fit, so I can do them in a way convenient to my schedule, my time allotted, and my ability to harvest the resources needed to fuel a particular production run.

This game does not respect the gamers' valued game time. Caps are placed on everything with the presumption of controlling the game economy. As I say in the next example, if all the major players grouped together under one umbrella company and pooled their efforts in one profession, other players would still be able to produce and sell the same product. Truth. The resource spawns are at the root of production. With spawns only lasting a couple weeks tops, and peeps only having so many lots for resources, NOBODY can create a monopoly. No groups of peeps can effect a monopoly. So to cramp our gameplay and our convenience and our most most most most VALUED and LIMITED game time with all these gates is just silly. There are no monopolies in this game. Lift the caps, let crafters operate with options and flexibility suited to their individual game style, game time, and game ability. Focus on the player experience for once, rather than gating it.

If you believe factory support should be increased, please state how you think this would be best achieved with minimal reprocussions to those on the other side of the issue.

What consequences are there to those on the other side of the issue? If all the major crafters I actually see in our server today, all the major armorsmiths, weaponsmiths, medsetc.banded together, dropped their professions and all became shipwrights, I would still be able to practice my Shipwright profession unmolested by their efforts. To make a claim that factories used by others materially affect my ability to flourish is sillyiness.

Factories, like harvesters, are a matter of convenience, enabling us to keep vendors stocked in x-% of the effort and repeated, redundant processes that we would otherwise have to do, so i can do it once every two weeks instead of every 3 days, for example, impacting my gametime, my ability to enjoy other aspects of the game, my time spent... not anyone elses.

If you believe factory support should not be increased, please provide (if any) proposals you would be willing to compromise on.

Bleh to that. Thanks for talking about a nerfed factory support, at no cost to anyone other than the crafters themselves who must then repeat everything they do exponentially and be left with more cast-off odds and ends littering their factories and houses storage from all the odd-lot production pieces.

Little-Green-Guy

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:54 pm

#76

Little-Green-Guy wrote:

no factory support is needed. thank you

not a single person can provide an argument ( a great argument) as to why we need (additional) factory support.

The currenty method is pefrect the way it is. It ensure many a shipwright will be employed on the servers, thus, eliminating any monopolies or oligapolies that will form.

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Tricki

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:22 am

#77

Little-Green-Guy wrote:

Little-Green-Guy wrote:

no factory support is needed. thank you

not a single person can provide an argument ( a great argument) as to why we need (additional) factory support.

The currenty method is pefrect the way it is. It ensure many a shipwright will be employed on the servers, thus, eliminating any monopolies or oligapolies that will form.

The same "arguement" as u present here would apply to all other crafting professions - and - therefore is not applicable

Tricki - Jedi Knight / J'zo - Master Shipwright
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired

RedDestinyCC

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:48 pm

#78

pervel wrote:

Kalano wrote:

pervel wrote:

I very much like the idea bout making a ship factory that can only be placed by a shipwright and that every shipwright can only place one. It should only cost 1 lot to place. Otherwise it would not benefit the small shipwrights much.

Although it is not the theme of this thread, I think this could be extended to all crafting professions. Architects can only place one structure factory. Tailors and armorsmith only one clothing factory. Doctors, CMs,Chefs and Smugglers only one food factory. Equipment factories should probably be placeable by all crafting professions.

you haven't done a lot of the crafting proffesions have you? Limiting to one will hurt many also. some items take several factory runs for the sub components and even they take a long time to make. Unless you cut down a large amount of factory time and sub components, one factory only will really hurt the unguilded and friend supported crafter. I know, because i am not part of a guild and not supported by others. I have used more that one factory at times because i didn't want to wait three days to get an end product as master artisan. it gets worse the higher you go.

I have been weaponsmith (still is), architect, artisan, and now shipwright. I have never used more than one of each type of factory and have done quite well. I would'nt mind extending it to 2 factories per person. But this thread is about trying to find compromises.

Pervel, I usually agree with you on most things, and I can even agree with you on this if push came to shove. But why do this? I'm an accomplished executive in retail, finance, banking, and marketing, and the bottom line in business is customer satisfaction tied to preferences and choices. Give the customer what they want, and that means give them choices. When you dictate to customers what they want, you have dissatisfied customers. That's why there's different model cars, and different model checking accounts.

I'm not here to tell anyone what they should want or shouldn't want, that's a losing path for any business, including SOE and SWG. People want different things, some times more informed than others. My preference is many factories, no caps, let my time and effort, and resources and lots and radioactive constraints, and spawn time length dictate with finite certainty any constraints. Give me flexibility to manage my time with. My 10 factories, or 10 harvesters, or the amount of time I spend searching for a higher % spawn, or the amount of time I spend experimenting,or the amount of time I spend watching diligently for spawns to catch them early on, or at all, or how many planets I survey on, are all variables, and my efforts in these regards will not impede another of the same profession at all from selling thier goods, only determining how satisfied I will be with SWG personally.

There are alot of variables that determine what makes someone competitive or successful in marketing their products, including the venerable Location, Location, Location. Factories are so nill to the equasion that this is silly, and a lot of the pontificating that people do around here is silly. Open it up and give customers choices, and don't try to dictate to other players what they should or shouldn't do. It's a losing strategy down to the basic fundamentals of business and marketing.

Message Edited by RedDestinyCC on 12-04-2004 11:57 AM

Shipwright Archive

Thread: Focus Thread: Factory Support