Shipwright Archive
Thread: Focus Thread: Factory Support
Niacia
Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:06 pm
#79
Right, giving people choices is important. Only, if a choice affects other people, there needs to be balance.
Maybe, I do not like to die in battle. Say, I want to choose playing in godmode. In a single player game, this is fine. It does not affact the way, anybody else is playing the game. In a multiplayer game, this would suck. PvP with godmode? Kind of silly, isn't it?
In a way, it is the same with factories. You want to be limited by available resource only. Somebody else, might not want to be limited by resource, but by storage. In a single player game, both might be possible, in a multiplayer game, there need to be the same rules for all players.
Some people prefer hand crafting, some people prefer factory crafting. An ideal game would give us the choice.
The bad thing about this, is, that factories right now are not balanced against hand crafting. The factory has the advantage in quantity, quality and/or cost. So adding full factory support in the way, it is implemented in other professions, would kill of most hand crafting. It is not a competetive strategy any more.
So, as your fun in this game seems to depent on it, add factory support to SW, but balance it.
This means:
The average quality of a factory run may not be higher then the average run of handcrafted components. The quality spread might be different, however.
Regards
Niacia
Maybe, I do not like to die in battle. Say, I want to choose playing in godmode. In a single player game, this is fine. It does not affact the way, anybody else is playing the game. In a multiplayer game, this would suck. PvP with godmode? Kind of silly, isn't it?
In a way, it is the same with factories. You want to be limited by available resource only. Somebody else, might not want to be limited by resource, but by storage. In a single player game, both might be possible, in a multiplayer game, there need to be the same rules for all players.
Some people prefer hand crafting, some people prefer factory crafting. An ideal game would give us the choice.
The bad thing about this, is, that factories right now are not balanced against hand crafting. The factory has the advantage in quantity, quality and/or cost. So adding full factory support in the way, it is implemented in other professions, would kill of most hand crafting. It is not a competetive strategy any more.
So, as your fun in this game seems to depent on it, add factory support to SW, but balance it.
This means:
The average quality of a factory run may not be higher then the average run of handcrafted components. The quality spread might be different, however.
Regards
Niacia
Jagged-F3l
Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:03 am
#80
Niacia wrote:
SmallpoxA wrote:
However, I'm going to switch hats again. Other crafting professions that depend heavily on experimentation (as does shipwright) have an advantage over shipwright. When they are crafting an item and experience 3 or more amazing successes, they can turn the thing into a manufacturing schematic and make more than one of that incredible item. I do this all the tiem for ship component upgrades, but would like to do this with ship components as well.
I wonder, whether this is really a disadvantage. Such an exeptional success becomes common place, if you multiply each success by 1000.
This is one (minor) problem, I have with factories. To me, it cheapens exeptional success.
Regarding limiting the number of builds per schematic. If the limit is low enough, this actually might work. But not at 100 as suggested elsewhere. A limit of 4, I could live with. But then, would this not make factories useless again?
Regards
Niacia
I am the same person as "SmallpoxA". My apologies for posting under my alt; something was borked with the boards when I posted this.
At any rate, you need to read my entire post. There is a logical progression to it.
Yes, allowing a SW to manufacture 1000 of an item resulting from some rather exceptional experimentation cheapens the experimentation process. However, I go on further to mention that if we were given better factory support, that it should be severely limited (i.e., a manufacturing schematic should only allow up to 10 items).
RedDestinyCC
Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:59 pm
#81
Doesn't it bother anyone that peeps get into the irrational game rules and run off of them as if they actually make sense?
Got one person saying that starships should be a handcrafted, dabbling profession, when its STARSHIPS we're talking about here. Hi-tech, complex items that should be done in a factory setting more than any other profession in the game.
Got another person saying that we should limit experimentation results to x-# of items per, but isn't the point of experimenting to improve the product line from that point forward, as in a technological or scientific breakthrough, as also in reverse engineering, whereby the product is improved from that point forward, forever, as in "we now have new knowledge that will help us improve our product."
It boggles me to see people run with ideas as if they are logical, when they are rooted in crazy rationale to begin with. If you want to have any sense of logic to any of this, back to the subject, factories should INCREASE production consistency, as they in fact do, and if you want, you could introduce a random defect element to the game. But come on people, don't get mired in the insanity that the devs put out here in their improper attempts to gate things... step back and think about things a bit. Then go back to opening things up in factories and storage and harvesters, as they kind of are, and are appropriately limited to:
- Limited resources (spawns dont last)
- Effort to monitor for and hit good spawns
- Efforts to manage and optimize harvesting
- Expenses into quality harvesters
- Lots available and our individual priority on their usage
- Attempts at experimentation
- Efforts to get mods
- Efforts to sort and use the optimum stats on resources
Otherwise, let the games begin, lift the illogical gates, and start thinking.
The more we get into these silly gates, that don't make sense, the more illogical, user-unfriendly, and generally non-intuative this game becomes, creating a larger learning curve as new players come in and we start telling them how they work and they go, "huh? why's it do that? that doesn't make sense! no wonder I couldn't figure it out." Goodness. Let's not destroy the game to ourselves and newcomersin attempts to fix bad design. Have to be able to step back and see things better. It's these examples of thinking that has been the problem with the devs so far, shoot from the hip, and sink us deeper into problems in design.
Message Edited by RedDestinyCC on 12-05-2004 05:17 PM
Kinot33
Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:14 pm
#82
RedDestinyCC wrote:
It boggles me to see people run with ideas as if they are logical, when they are rooted in crazy rationale to begin with. If you want to have any sense of logic to any of this, back to the subject, factories should INCREASE production consistency, as they in fact do, and if you want, you could introduce a random defect element to the game. But come on people, don't get mired in the insanity that the devs put out here in their improper attempts to gate things... step back and think about things a bit. Then go back to opening things up in factories and storage and harvesters, as they kind of are, and are appropriately limited to:
- Limited resources (spawns dont last)
- Effort to monitor for and hit good spawns
- Efforts to manage and optimize harvesting
- Expenses into quality harvesters
- Lots available and our individual priority on their usage
- Attempts at experimentation
- Efforts to get mods
- Efforts to sort and use the optimum stats on resources
Otherwise, let the games begin, lift the illogical gates, and start thinking.
The more we get into these silly gates, that don't make sense, the more illogical, user-unfriendly, and generally non-intuative this game becomes, creating a larger learning curve as new players come in and we start telling them how they work and they go, "huh? why's it do that? that doesn't make sense! no wonder I couldn't figure it out." Goodness. Let's not destroy the game to ourselves and newcomersin attempts to fix bad design. Have to be able to step back and see things better. It's these examples of thinking that has been the problem with the devs so far, shoot from the hip, and sink us deeper into problems in design.
Message Edited by RedDestinyCC on 12-05-2004 05:17 PM
Then what about introducing "waste" in factories, and then building a whole line of factory modifications that alter from a baseline? A cheap (read no mods)factory gives you massive runs at the quality your schematic sets, but also eats more resources per item made. Experimentedstats on a factory will lower the waste resources needed, but also begin to severly limit how many items are produced at a time and also affect how long it takes to finish an item. Thus making economical factories desirable for those want them, but allowing those can afford it to use sloppier factories. hand crafting would have zero resource waste other than the regular crit fails, but factories are always going to have some waste on the floor, not just the initial schematic. ( I admit i have no idea what is experimentable on factories, I have never been an Architect)
- Basic factories have a high output number and decent storage, but use extra resources (a percentage) per item crafted. This means that what costs you 200 resources to make by hand could be as much as 50% more to run in a basic, nearly unlimited factory.
- Architects could experiment the factories to reduce the amount of "waste" resource needed but it would begin to limit how much and how quickly the factory could make in one run. Severly limited. Start at 75 itemsand then go down swiftly to like 5 at best resource use...and you still have a slight penalty even with the best experimentation possible.
- Very high experimentation schematics could have an additional resource cost on top of the factory's "waste" resource needs. I would reccomend limiting this to 10% at most and possibly making it a completely different resource than the item uses. I see this as setting up the factory for a "special"run like metal fabrication shops or 4-color print processors.
There are a number of bonuses with this idea:
- Everyone can produce the same, high quality items, but those who want it done faster will be paying for he privilidge. it will further reduce the older players "hordes" of resources because they will have to use them to stay as big as they are and then eventually the playing field become even.
- It is scalar. The more items you want, the more resources you will waste. The better a factory you have, the more you save, but at the same time, you are now making less anyways even with lot trades.
- It adds a new element to Architects similar to the variety of craftability in nearly any ship part. Diversity in factory levels will mean more "face-time" business for Architects to create factories to customer specifications.
edited to add fleshed out idea to post from other thread. not finished idea yet though, lemme know what you think!
Message Edited by Kinot33 on 12-06-2004 02:47 AM
metalheckac
Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:09 am
#83
1. I vote for some increased factory support.
2. Only adding Armors to the list of things that can be crafted using factory. It's the only part of the ship that needs replacing very often. If you get dmg/repaira lot, and like to keep the protection high, you might end up replacing them as often as you reload your missle launchers. And since you can crank out crates of ammo, why not armors? I sure as hell would rather be carrying a crate of replacement armors on my instead of 20 pieces indivivually, given that our inventory is SMALL ENOUGH as it is.
progman63
Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:33 am
#84
I would vote YES if I took part in a poll.
I understand there are MANY barriers to a player starting a new crafting profession.
They are the same barriers that everyone faces when starting any given crafting profession
in any grind-centric crafting system.
People can (and do) personally craft and sell every item face-to-face.
It's a selling point, and it's very effective.
It's a marketing mechanism, not a mechanical limitation.
It can be just as hard to balance a crafting profession as a combat profession,
but making a profession (even) more tedious ain't the answer.
It's not just SWG. Until someone comes up with a new crafting paradigm, we're stuck with what we have.
This one issue will not break new ground or balance current crafting.
That would require an entirely unique crafting system.
There is no answer as 'simple' as this.
LuciferMullins
Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:25 pm
#85
A little late, but my POV in...
I voted a very big NO.
Why is very simple. I'll use Enki/Only86 as the prime example. Enki has 280+ harvesters. This does not include the myriad of factories in his posession, nor the storage houses. Is this a bad thing? From single server, single economy point of view: yes. It allows a small percentage of the server to control the markets in a given category. Near monopolistic pricing structure, et al.
Now Cross-Server lot trading is somewhat easy, somewhat annoying, and not entirely without risk. While it exists, and I don't personally have a good way to eliminate/limit it, it allows the powergamer to overpower the normal/casual gamer. They, Enki as the example, can runs dozens to hundreds of crated items, and just drown them out in a sea of product. Right now they can only flood the paint/texture/tool markets, the major component markets, other than the loot screwed ones, everyone can compete right now.
This is the simplified version, but I do not feel like Walmart'ing shipwright too
I voted a very big NO.
Why is very simple. I'll use Enki/Only86 as the prime example. Enki has 280+ harvesters. This does not include the myriad of factories in his posession, nor the storage houses. Is this a bad thing? From single server, single economy point of view: yes. It allows a small percentage of the server to control the markets in a given category. Near monopolistic pricing structure, et al.
Now Cross-Server lot trading is somewhat easy, somewhat annoying, and not entirely without risk. While it exists, and I don't personally have a good way to eliminate/limit it, it allows the powergamer to overpower the normal/casual gamer. They, Enki as the example, can runs dozens to hundreds of crated items, and just drown them out in a sea of product. Right now they can only flood the paint/texture/tool markets, the major component markets, other than the loot screwed ones, everyone can compete right now.
This is the simplified version, but I do not feel like Walmart'ing shipwright too
Bahboo
Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:03 am
#86
I have to admit that at first I was against the lack of factories for shipwrights, but now I must admit that I freakin love the way its set up. My vendors are smoking cuz I take the time to hand craft quality parts every day and I keep a high levle of interaction with my customers. I wouldn't mind seeing chassis blueprints come out of the factory, though.
MonsofoLexius
Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:40 pm
#87
How about this for middle ground as we don't seem to be gettting there (I am as guilty as anyone in my own thoughts).
- Subcomponets and reloads (missles, CM, etc)- As they are
- Armor - Set to standard limit (1K units)
- All other components to 10
So we get factory support for the items to save some of us the time. We do have to spend the resources of 11 units to make ten as opposed to 10 for 10 for hand crafting. With the number of resources used in many of the items this is a huge penalty.
Thoughts??Suggestions??
pervel
Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:55 pm
#88
MonsofoLexius wrote:
How about this for middle ground as we don't seem to be gettting there (I am as guilty as anyone in my own thoughts).
- Subcomponets and reloads (missles, CM, etc)- As they are
- Armor - Set to standard limit (1K units)
- All other components to 10
So we get factory support for the items to save some of us the time. We do have to spend the resources of 11 units to make ten as opposed to 10 for 10 for hand crafting. With the number of resources used in many of the items this is a huge penalty.
Thoughts??Suggestions??
I am all for reducing the number of items that can be produced from a schematic. However, 10 is way too low. The motivation for reducing the number should not be to penalize factory-production but rather to reduce some of the fear that the factory-haters have about the mythical crafting monopolies. As I said before, making thelimit too low is not a compromise - it is just another way of saying no to factories.
IdleThought
Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:39 pm
#89
Still not seeing any argument *for* factories beyond "I want to be able to make more stuff per hour" which is, presumably, the reason they aren't here.
Nothing about how adding factories would improve the game overall (as opposed to just improving it for people who are finding their aims for production exceed their ability to fulfill them).
I can see that some people are put into a difficult position by thise - people who have a large guild to supply and not enough help - but you can't always just get all you want in these games.
I'd love to be able to do more REing but I can't because I can't afford to hoover up all the loot on the bazaar because I don't have the cashflow to do so without raising prices. I have to choose between getting a firespray schematic and the pricing policy I want to use.
Shipwright as a whole seems to be doing fine without factories so far. It will be easy enough to add them if that changes or proves to be untrue.
Nothing about how adding factories would improve the game overall (as opposed to just improving it for people who are finding their aims for production exceed their ability to fulfill them).
I can see that some people are put into a difficult position by thise - people who have a large guild to supply and not enough help - but you can't always just get all you want in these games.
I'd love to be able to do more REing but I can't because I can't afford to hoover up all the loot on the bazaar because I don't have the cashflow to do so without raising prices. I have to choose between getting a firespray schematic and the pricing policy I want to use.
Shipwright as a whole seems to be doing fine without factories so far. It will be easy enough to add them if that changes or proves to be untrue.
Scythe
Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:53 pm
#90
styx66 wrote:
This thread is for the issue of factory support.
The poll showed a slight majority in favor of no change to factory support, but a significant number of you believe there should be some change.
So in this thread, please:
- (Optional) State what way you voted (or would have voted) in the poll. No change of factory support/I Like it as it is.
- (Optional) Why you voted (or would have voted) this way.
- If you believe factory support should be increased, please state how you think this would be best achieved with minimal reprocussions to those on the other side of the issue.
- If you believe factory support should not be increased, please provide (if any) proposals you would be willing to compromise on. The lack of factory support makes it so much easier for someone who is dedicated to the profession, and not to making a fast buck, to be profitable, but also aid the pilots and the community. Most of those who are out to make a quick buck will sell Chassis, rather cheaply at that. This is fine and dandy, they rarely touch what is fast becoming my bread and butter, good crafted components. With the recent fixes to crafted components (EXCEPT BLOODY CAPACITORS!!!) a lot of the things I craft are on par with or better than most loot, and I can customize to a customer's needs very easily. By dedicating a little more time to the prof, I can easily have many more items on the vendor that bring people in, instead of dropping prices on chassis like everyone else. Another point:As much as increased factory support would make crafting easier, I don't want to waste 2k+ resources in making a schematic. Haste makes waste. I don't want to waste my resources, or this profession. PLEASE keep factory support as it is!
PLEASE do not start major arguments or flame wars here. This post will be deleted and/or restarted if it gets out of hand. This will be a post the devs eyes will see, so lets make it good.
Also, I have a dev statement about why factories are the way they are. I will post when I get the OK.
Message Edited by styx66 on 11-25-2004 01:34 AM
MonsofoLexius
Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:16 pm
#91
I agree with that, I am just trying to spart to find some middle ground. I concur that I don't agree with any of those opposed to factories, and I do not think their arguments hold water IMHO, but thats just me. I am happy to disagree with them, I would just love to find something we can agree on.
pervel wrote:
I am all for reducing the number of items that can be produced from a schematic. However, 10 is way too low. The motivation for reducing the number should not be to penalize factory-production but rather to reduce some of the fear that the factory-haters have about the mythical crafting monopolies. As I said before, making thelimit too low is not a compromise - it is just another way of saying no to factories.