Shipwright Archive

Thread: The People Have Spoken... (poll results)

Elzar
Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:21 am
#53
#9b I'm kind of jumping to the end of this thread so if this has been addressed i apologize. I don't think you could get away with adding player city starship terms without adding a spaceport or landing pad for ships, at least not without sinking every single architect into a deep suicidal depression. As a master architect I've been looking forward to the possiblity of building starports. It won't revive arch as andead profession (according to most people) but it will give us hope for more additions to the game in the future. This is definetely a step in the right direction. If the Shipwrights can get on board that's one more reason they should do this, but please, don't slap a starship terminal on the shuttle port and say it "Shuttles you tothe Spacestation" or something stupid like that, give us something to do.


As for factory support I have an idea that may or may not work. You could make the use of factories a certifiacation similar to R.I.S. certification or 12 point weaponsmiths. You could get master SW and then have to craft like10 of every single item a shipwright can make then u qualify. With this method you may still get a lot of industries cropping up mass producing, but you could make factory items take twice as many resources to make the big boys suffer for flooding the market. Feel free to flame, i'm wearing my composite



Xitar Peng
Master Shipwright
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4Bidden
Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:17 am
#54




Niacia wrote:




4Bidden wrote:

I know someone with 7 accounts who voted... So my 1 yes vote for factory support had to go up against his 7 no votes.... 1 person voting 7 times.. How is that fair?





Maybe it is fair, because he pays 7 times the money you pay? Is it fair, that such a person has only one vote?

Just playing devils advocate, but even as a person with one account only I am not surr what is fair.

Anyway, what really would surprise me is a seven account person voting against factory support. After all, such a person would gain most by factory support. Just run the numbers: 70 lots available to feed factories. Well, some lots will be needed for factory and other stuff. Still, at least 60 lots should be available.

Also, how much time has such a person to play his shipwright? I play my shipwright approx 2h-3h a day. To play seven accounts, this would make 14-21h a day. Not much time left to do anything else. Such a person would profit, if he could speed up his crafting process, would he not?

If anyone profits from factories, he would.

Regards

Niacia




No, it is not fair, cause this person pretended to be different people.... Lets call him "Gary".. If Gary posted on all of his votes that "Hi, Im Gary voting no again", I highly doubthis voteswould be recieved without question..Gary is voting no because he has a slight advantage over other SW's... I know what he is doing and I dont like it.. Lets just say he is a virtual factory.



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styx66
Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:34 am
#55




Elzar wrote:

#9b I'm kind of jumping to the end of this thread so if this has been addressed i apologize. I don't think you could get away with adding player city starship terms without adding a spaceport or landing pad for ships, at least not without sinking every single architect into a deep suicidal depression. As a master architect I've been looking forward to the possiblity of building starports. It won't revive arch as andead profession (according to most people) but it will give us hope for more additions to the game in the future. This is definetely a step in the right direction. If the Shipwrights can get on board that's one more reason they should do this, but please, don't slap a starship terminal on the shuttle port and say it "Shuttles you tothe Spacestation" or something stupid like that, give us something to do.


As for factory support I have an idea that may or may not work. You could make the use of factories a certifiacation similar to R.I.S. certification or 12 point weaponsmiths. You could get master SW and then have to craft like10 of every single item a shipwright can make then u qualify. With this method you may still get a lot of industries cropping up mass producing, but you could make factory items take twice as many resources to make the big boys suffer for flooding the market. Feel free to flame, i'm wearing my composite






thanks for staying on topic


this thread has been pretty well hijacked, i will over time start focus threads on most of these issues. hold on to your ideas


Niacia
Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:24 am
#56

styx66 wrote:

thanks for staying on topic

this thread has been pretty well hijacked, i will over time start focus threads on most of these issues. hold on to your ideas




Sorry for straying away from topic. This no factory thing is important to me, and so it is hard to refrain from discussion .

Regards

Niacia
Niacia
Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:04 pm
#57

4Bidden wrote:
I know someone with 7 accounts who voted... So my 1 yes vote for factory support had to go up against his 7 no votes.... 1 person voting 7 times.. How is that fair?



Maybe it is fair, because he pays 7 times the money you pay? Is it fair, that such a person has only one vote?

Just playing devils advocate, but even as a person with one account only I am not surr what is fair.

Anyway, what really would surprise me is a seven account person voting against factory support. After all, such a person would gain most by factory support. Just run the numbers: 70 lots available to feed factories. Well, some lots will be needed for factory and other stuff. Still, at least 60 lots should be available.

Also, how much time has such a person to play his shipwright? I play my shipwright approx 2h-3h a day. To play seven accounts, this would make 14-21h a day. Not much time left to do anything else. Such a person would profit, if he could speed up his crafting process, would he not?

If anyone profits from factories, he would.

Regards

Niacia
styx66
Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:57 pm
#58


PetaByte32 wrote:

Its not about thinking differently. Its about the fact that using a vote to gain a top 5 issues isnt going to work.


Where exactly did i say this would become our top 5? I'm not even using a top 5 format at this time.


This will be the profession if the whole "Majority rules" thing goes forth. Because it isnt majority rules. Look at the votes. Some show 1/3rd against or for something. That is 1/3 of the shipwrights. That means if there are 1000 shipwrights thenthat vote tells us that 333 of them have a problem with whatever issue. 333 is alot. One is almost 50/50. So half feel one way and the other half another.


This is an inherent 'problem' with majority rules democracy. How about, say, a presidential canditate that loses by 2-3%. Do those 48% of the population who voted for him get some sort of compromise?


But still this isn't an issue for this poll. This was a VERY informal poll that i took time (albeit a long time, sorry) to go over and total up etc. This is not the foundations of the "Crusade of the Shipwright." As i remember saying in the first post on the poll, this is to get an idea of where the community stands. And now I know its very divided. Nothing more. Also in this post I asked on some of the very close issues ways to implement these things as you suggest. Why I haven't asked about factory alternatives? Well thats coming shortly.


Lets say this all passes and the DEVs get it. They agree with it and go ahead and make all the needed changes. What do you get? At least 50% of the current shipwright community unhappy with some part ofit and most likely pursuing other professions. Why? Because they think differently from you. So shipwright becomes a "Think like the majority or suffer" mentality. I saw a community like that once on an old 1930s newsreel. It was hard to make out because it was in black and white and everyone spoke german.


You're calling me a Nazi? Grow up. Refer to Godwin's Law.


This is as democratic as it gets. I hate bringing politics into anything, but according to you, 48% of america is "suffering" from an unjust democratic process.



The smart thing should have been to find the big issues and then find a compromise99% can agree with. Instead you will have a much larger percentage of the shipwright community skewed off in their own little world.


For example the whole factory issue. There are alot of compromises that could be brought forth to make99% happy. Limited support or certain items, that are sold in large numbers,made able to schematic. Just one example. "If you bend you need not break."


I say 99% because no matter what is suggested someone will have a problem. But you tell me which is better: 1% having issues or 33% having issues? I really want to know your answer on this. Also styx's answer on this.


You will never get 99% on a complicated/significant issue. Also, you will likely never get the devs to agree or impliment your idea 100% accurately on thisfantasy 99% approved proposal. I've been around a while, and I've done this before, andI know there will always be a good portion of people who disagree with the majority. Sometimes it's more pronounced, sometimes not. Meddling around for months on end trying to find a 99% approval rate on a proposition would end up with little to no progress. Not that i'm a pessimist but its unrealistic.


So what styx should do is cancel the whole vote thing and then make a post on each of the big issues to get feedback on real compromises from either side of the fence. Then find the best ones and submit those to the DEVs.


There doesnt need to be a cancelling of the vote because this vote isn't really that binding. Part of my job is knowing where my community stands, and now I know, and can start seeing what things people are most passionate about that i need to discuss with developers. Remember, please, I'm on your side.


Tyranus










pervel wrote:


The result of this poll will now be used to silence this issue completely.


This is absolutely not true.


Had more options been given in the poll, it is very likely that the small majority against full factory support would have shifted to a majority for some compromise.


Possibly, and I understand the concern that the all-or-nothing vote isn't quite fair. Again this isn't written in stone.











4bidden wrote:


I know someone with 7 accounts who voted... So my 1 yes vote for factory support had to go up against his 7 no votes.... 1 person voting 7 times.. How is that fair?


Ok, who? Can u be certain there wasn't someone on your side overvoting too? The odds are pretty even, if not skewed towards the 'vote for change' favor (usually people who want a change from something that would otherwise stay the same will go to more lengths to get it done.)






I will be putting up a factory focus thread soon to discuss possible compromises.




Cebre_Opasloa
Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:18 pm
#59




4Bidden wrote:

I know someone with 7 accounts who voted... So my 1 yes vote for factory support had to go up against his 7 no votes....1 person voting 7 times.. How is that fair?






Because that person pays 7 times the amount you do? I only have one account and I have no issue with those who pay more getting more oppurtunities to vote.


If they pay for 7 accounts, I pay for one, and we are given the same weight, is that fair even though I pay a fraction of what the other person does?





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IBCrazy
Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:13 pm
#60




Cebre_Opasloa wrote:




4Bidden wrote:

I know someone with 7 accounts who voted... So my 1 yes vote for factory support had to go up against his 7 no votes....1 person voting 7 times.. How is that fair?






Because that person pays 7 times the amount you do? I only have one account and I have no issue with those who pay more getting more oppurtunities to vote.


If they pay for 7 accounts, I pay for one, and we are given the same weight, is that fair even though I pay a fraction of what the other person does?






4bidden does make a good point. I have more accounts than you can shack a stick at. I am for factory support and I only voted one time... Nor, did I have friends come here to vote for factory support. From now I will vote on all accounts, and I will ask all my friends to vote in favoroffactory support. Remember, you are telling me its ok to do this...... So I will.
Niacia
Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:32 am
#61
The voting modalities are not an easy question. One can make a good argument for both positions. And both can be found in RL. Elections are on a per person basis, shareholder votes are on a per share basis.

However, bringing in friends is not fair anymore...

Regards

Niacia
Kalano
Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:18 pm
#62
A possible idea that might make things better.


The resource needs to be a bigger effect on the item, but make the different experiment lines use different qualities of the resource. So, what you use to get mass down is OQ, but you loose a lot in armor and hit points. you get your speed up really high, but you loose in the accel/deccel. make it so the type of resource you use will affect some qualities but not all the qualities of the item. I belive several parts are this way, or just maybe missles. Just finilly became a novice SW since beta.


If the resource affects the item greatly like i said in the previous paragraph, i say use factories. If you building really fast and heavy engines or what ever combination comes up. (at work so i have no availble resources to look up everything with effiency) That is the engine made, but not everyone will use it. I might make really light engines and have high accel/deccel rates, not everyone will use them either. Factory production will not be as great if you are running only one type of engine only a group of ships would use. But the give and take has to be a large enough to make a major difference. I am still not a big fan on the factory use right now.


Loot items need to be scaled back toward either the lvl of crafted, or my perfered move is to make crafted scaled to loot items. I belive the only time aloot item should be better than crafted is reversed loot. That way it makes reverse enginering something special, and crafted items worth something. the biggest thing for me right now is crafted items are way to much in mass. I am on TC, so loot items are not as common on Live, so iam hard pressed sometimes finding parts that will help me complete missions and also be within my mass limits. Which goes back to resources affecting the crafted items more and most definatly need experimentation be a bigger affect. on all lvls, but expecailly on mark V.


Crafted items should be the most desired, besides the rare uber reversed loot. Loot items should be the back ups. Can't find that crafted item you need, then pick up a loot item, or can't afford that crafted item that make the world beautiful, use a loot item to make it up.


Right now with loot items being so much better, more factory support will do little for the SW proffesion. Right now, i see our biggest competition is with loot items, not each other.


I love a lot of the changes to the crafting profession in SW. Needs a bit more tweeking but it is a really nice design, and i would like to see the other crafting profession picking up a lot of the changes to make them more exciting. Gives crafters a lot more challange.



Thank you for the work you are doing Styx66.



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-Redux-
Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:17 am
#63
Well, that was an interesting read.....


1)Thanks Styx for all your hard work in trying to determine what our top issues are.


2) For those that think voting can be manipulated, yep, it can. So can anything else. Maybe a case of scotch or a couple a sticks of RAM sent to Styx would get your fav issue bumped in the Top 5. Maybe it wouldn't. Anything can be manipulated. Its the nature of the universe.


3)X is a significant number of people. Depends. Some people think all people are significant. Some people are utilitarian and believe only in the Harm Principle. Some people don't care either way so no number is significant to them. Its all relative. The poll wasn't meant to slight or lessen anyone. It was meant to give an idea of what is important right now, not to exclude anything from being important ever. Things change with time. Sometime your pet issue might be top of the list. Time will tell.


4) Be thankful that we have a correspondent and a voice. The Devs could very easily do away with correspondents and give us no access to them whatsoever.


Let's try to be a little less negative and inflamatory, and instead let's try to be more constructive. Offer up ideas. And when ideas are offered up, don't just flame them. Offer constructive criticism. Have an open mind.


Now, here is my idea for factory support that should help shipwrights, help the novice crafters, and help the economy. On the downside, the established big corporate crafters might be a little bummed, but in the long run should not be hurt too badly by it.


For those of you that are not aware, factories were supposed to have a 100 item per schematic limit, but a typo in the code made it a 1000 a long time ago. So I propose the following:


1. Make all schematics for all professions a 100 item limit except for components, food, and other consumables (like ammo, paint kits, etc) which will stay at 1000. The 100 item limit on durable goods will help keep monster crafters from dominating the market, but still allow the reasonable mass production of items.


2. Leave factory run time at 8 seconds per complexity point per item.


3. Create jobber npc's so that those that are lot crunched or don't want to mess with tending 10 factories can go to the jobber with a schematic and the resources, and place an order for a reasonable fee based on the cost of operating a factory for the given time of production. When you place the order you choose one of your vendors to have the finished order delivered to. When the order is done running, it is dropped on the vendor chosen in the stockroom. If you do not have a vendor, the finished product will be dropped on the bazaar terminal as available items in the npc city where the jobber is located. This system will also eliminate some server load because if the cost was similar, it is reasonable to assume many crafters would use the jobbers rather than maintain factories, thus many factories would come down so lots could be used for harvesting or storage.


So if anyone has any constructive suggestions or ideas on this, please post them as this is just an off the top of my head idea while I am bored at work. It might be good, it might be crap, but it is better than just whining and flaming.





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pervel
Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:39 am
#64

Styx, I was thinking that perhaps you could make a focus thread about the FS conversion of shipwright xp. There is a 2/3 majority in favor of some conversion. But I think it would be good with a discussion of the conversion ratio so that we have something to suggest to the devs. It's very likely that we cannot agree an a ratio, of course. Then we will just have to let the devs decide - they might do that anyway.

Trean
Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:10 pm
#65




styx66 wrote:




  1. Do we want this across the board, or are there specific areas (say, YPR on engines or VSVA on weapons?)


  2. Does this apply to all items, or exclude a few (say, chassis, missiles, etc)


  3. What is the precise functionality we would like to see out of a player city starship terminal? Travel abilites or just ship configuration abilities? If we pushed for a more intuitive and useful shipwright sale interface (similar to ID), would this negate the need for this terminal?




1. To me, I think give us back all the experimentation we once had in beta. Was it me or was I hallucinating in beta with all those points on all items not just a few things here and there. I think the points given for weapon experimentation is accurate, and everything else that has a decent amount of experimentation to be done, should be boosted. Picking and choosing what to experiment on is good and all, but not having enough points to max out a line and then make the leftovers matter hurts alot.


2. Resources are the name of the game in all other crafting based professions. In shipwright many of the items change the name of game to bulk resources, no quality needed. Most obvious in my opinion is on chasis, it varies as you produce the higher tier ships but still blatantly obvious that resources don't affect the outcome that much. For instance, creating a Z95 with crap resources will probably put you at around 11k mass, but with great resources you get 12k mass. Now the difference in the resources I used for the two different chasis are huge, the first batch wasn't all truly crap but it was very craptastic easily found on vendors in the 2-4 cpu bins. The second chasis was the elite bin, the top of the top resources, to produce something most spectacular that most crafters are rewarded for. Instead shipwrights are shunned from using these resources in this instance because it means little to nothing once you move upwards in parts level. Now I am not saying that the boost needs to be something that counteracts the fact that its a Z95, but seriously, if I computed the cpu rates I would sell the first chasis for 20k and the second one for 95k, but the second one is only 1k more mass so who in there right mind would buy it. This needs to be fixed.


3a. As a former mayor and acting deputy mayor I would enjoy a little spice thrown to the player cities. As they are now, they are basically a place for players to organize and throw money out of the game economy, great idea hah. I still enjoy the feeling of community brought about by these but player cities need a little loving, beyond the voting changes that are in my opinion a great hinderance with a helping hand. Anyways you say how to implement starport in player cities... Well first off, you need to put a cap on the total starports per planet. This will enable zero or one player cities to get a starport on the core worlds and only a set number on the other buildable worlds. I would vote for 0 on the core worlds if you asked me, they have enough starports as is. A set number would let each planet have the same amount of starports if all the other requirements are met. One of the other requirements would be citizen count in a metro, I would say that only cities with 125 or more citizens should be able to place their starport. And more importantly, if there are one more than the set number of elidgable cities then the largest cities get it, not the first cities. As for whether to implement shuttles to just become starports or make a whole new building, that can be decided later, I would be for a new building cause well its a starport.


3b. Well you also asked why there should be pseudo management terminals and how to implement them. Well this is simple. People don't like to pull out a calculator every time the buy more than one piece to make sure they have enough power running through there ship as well as enough mass to fit all the new parts. How to implement such a device, you ask? Well simple again, toss architects a JTL bone, furniture style. Create some sort of furniture item that acts as a vid screen or HUD display, using your data pad, and allows you to move pieces in and out to get totals on mass and energy usage, without actually making the changes to the ship. These can then be purchased by Shipwrights and placed within their shops for their customers to use.


3b. OPTION 2 --- Get those art dudes to make an open-air terminal that is a player city building. This building when you are within range acts like the HUD for managing your ship, but does not actually remove any parts since your ship is parked at the nearby starport and not the player city air terminal.




Trean Speyr-Caggeyder
Former SWG Player
Voted Starsider's Best Weaponsmith - August 2005

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