Shipwright Archive

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Niacia wrote:

However, the poll clearly shows, that full factory support would not be supported by a 99% majority of the shipwrights. This is not binding for all time, of course. And there might be a solution, that can be supported by 99% of the shipwrights, but nobody has found that solution so far.

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Yes, and this shows a problem with the way Styx made the poll. It is clear that the majority of voters do not want full factory support like we know if from other professions. But it is also clear that a lot of people are not happy with the current situation. Had more options been given in the poll, it is very likely that the small majority against full factory support would have shifted to a majority for some compromise.

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pervel wrote:

The result of this poll will now be used to silence this issue completely. Regardless that a compromise could most likely be made that would make a larger majority happy and improve the game for all players - not just the crafters.

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I seriously doubt, that we have seen the end of that discussion .

And yes, even though I am opposed to factory support, please feel free to suggest alternative approaches. Right now, I have not seen one, I would support. But this might change, if the approach is one, that would work for me.

Fact is, right now we do not have such a alternative way. Therefore, it would not make much sense to press for factory support. Because we do not know, how a majority would like factory support to be implemented.

If there is some suggestion is nome thread, that seems to have broad support, I would see it as Styx duty to put up for another poll. The issue is not dead. Nor should it be, as some of you guys feel strongly about it.

If anything, the poll shows full factory support is not what the majority of the shipwrights want.

Please work on a proposal. Maybe we can find a way, that makes everybody happy. Nevertheless, I will keep on trying to explain my point of view. Keep on pointing out, why an approach is not working for me. And maybe you guys make a sugegstion, that is going to work for me.

The poll is not meant to stop discussion. It is merely meant to find out, what the SW community things.

Regards

Niacia

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IdleThought wrote:
I've never seen an official 'motive' for the stance on factories, but the probable, and presumably intended, effect is not to 'help newbies' into the profession but to ensure that SW is a viable profession for the maximum number of playing SW's.

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No true, devs have always had a theme and communication around "controlling the economy,"CSR's have said that there's a strong bias against mass producers/crafters behind the scenes, and that impacts game design decisions. Our lead devs hate mass production, it doesn't fit into their bias, er... view, of how the game should be played, it should all be low level, one-off or small-lot production, no industry, no monopolies. Their concern is ludicrous because anyeone can enter into this game and within reasonable time get their hands on a slew of BER 13/14 harvesters and start to compete for business and earn business. The end result of the devs bias is a bottleneck of inconvenience in production processes, and a major sucking sound of enjoyable gametime.

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Niacia wrote:

There is one exeption to this now. Shipwright. Here, a novice can compete in chassis. There are two reasons for this. First, experimentation (and resource quality does not have a big impact). Second, nobody can provide chassis for the whole market.

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And this has got nothing to do with the lack of factory support. I haven't seen a single person ask for chassis to be factory craftable. It is the amount of resources needed that will stop any single player from dominating the market. This is blatently true for chassis. But it is also true for high-end components where you both need a fairly large amount or resources and good quality.

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RedDestinyCC wrote:

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IdleThought wrote:
I've never seen an official 'motive' for the stance on factories, but the probable, and presumably intended, effect is not to 'help newbies' into the profession but to ensure that SW is a viable profession for the maximum number of playing SW's.

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No true, devs have always had a theme and communication around "controlling the economy," CSR's have said that there's a strong bias against mass producers/crafters behind the scenes, and that impacts game design decisions. Our lead devs hate mass production, it doesn't fit into their bias, er... view, of how the game should be played, it should all be low level, one-off or small-lot production, no industry, no monopolies. Their concern is ludicrous because anyeone can enter into this game and within reasonable time get their hands on a slew of BER 13/14 harvesters and start to compete for business and earn business. The end result of the devs bias is a bottleneck of inconvenience in production processes, and a major sucking sound of enjoyable gametime.

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Didn't say it didn't exist, said I hadn't seen an official statement that the design decision on the factories was because of it.

I expect it was, but theres a difference between inference and drawing on a statement of fact. Yep. They hate mass production, why? Because they want lots of crafters not a few, but they also want fairly high prices. So, they cap the amount you can produce per hour, reducing the amount of demand a single crafter can meet. Consequence is prices stay high and in theory small time crafters will still get more traffic.

Now it's probably an experiment - and every one who complains that they're spending all their time hand-crafting to meet demand suggests to them that their plan is working. It's not a good argument for factories being needed, because the devs wanted it to work that way.

What will be a good argument for factories is a short supply of components, but not until the number of SW's has levelled off and started falling back towards whatever number the current game design will support.

And, just so we're clear, I favour the status quo on factories - because I tend to agree with the Devs that mass-production is bad for the game as a whole since it makes SW interesting for a larger number of players (probably less good for low prices, but the point of the game is not low prices)

With looted items and chassis that are, properly flown, pretty durable the stable (after this initial rush) SW market isn't going to be that great. This is the wrong time to reconsider if factory support is really needed.

I've never seen an official 'motive' for the stance on factories, but the probable, and presumably intended, effect is not to 'help newbies' into the profession but to ensure that SW is a viable profession for the maximum number of playing SW's.

It does this by putting an lower effective cap on how much ship stuff one crafter can create than would be imposed if it was just limited by resources.

The complaints of 'I don't want to sit there and craft and craft and craft and craft and..' indicate that it's actually working as intended and probably reassures the Devs that they picked the right path.

Whether the end effect will be more SW's or a small number of burnt-out wanna-be uber-SW's after a month or two is yet to be seen.

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RedDestinyCC wrote:

Right you are Destiny

Freakin Kuat is a corporation, there is, after all... INDUSTRY in the SWG universe. If someone wants to craft it up in bulk and enjoy it, and form cooperatives that mimic industry. Damned it let them. And up that storage to facilitate it. Is that fair to players? Hell yes its fair. They can join an ongoing enterprise or cooperative, they can own and start their own, or they can continue working solo, that's their choice.

"New Devs, new devs, new devs... La la la la la *kicks up feet* la la la" such a happy song.

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Talking to himself? Somehow, this looks as if logging to a different account did not work for some reason. Is this you Peta? Anyway, I might be completely wrong on this one...

And, this person did not vote....

Regards

Niacia

If we find a solution where 99% of the shipwrights agree, this would be a very good solution. However, I doubt, that such a solution exists. Not for all issues. Not for something as important as factory support or no factory support.

Your opinion on this will be influenced very much by the way you play the game.

BTW, I suspect, that multiple account players will be more in favour of factories then single account players. Because those players very often use crafters as mule chars.

Again, I might be wrong on that one.

However, the poll clearly shows, that full factory support would not be supported by a 99% majority of the shipwrights. This is not binding for all time, of course. And there might be a solution, that can be supported by 99% of the shipwrights, but nobody has found that solution so far.

If there is a suggestion, a new poll might be called for.

Right now, the way I read the poll, factory support is no top priority for most of the SWs.

And, discussions in this forum will never give you a complete overview about SW oppinions. We had less then 300 votes. How many SW are out there? Several 1000nd I would presume. So talk about being representative.

Regards

Niacia

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Niacia wrote:

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RedDestinyCC wrote:

No true, devs have always had a theme and communication around "controlling the economy," CSR's have said that there's a strong bias against mass producers/crafters behind the scenes, and that impacts game design decisions. Our lead devs hate mass production,

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If they hate mass production, I wonder why they introduced factories in the first place...

Niacia

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Factories are limited production... when you're dealing with items with multiple subcomponents, you're blocked by the 1,000 unit cap on schematics. For example, I may have enough resources to make 20 crates of buffs, which by the way would only last me a week, but the factories limit me to 6 cases, or 300 units. That's the largest run I can do. So factories only provide a limited amount of industry, and a limited amount of convenience. Factories, like structure storage, are designed to limit industry, intentionally, by design.

I can only hope that the new devs coming on board, including the new lead designer, will put an end to this nonsense, so I don't have to do all this busywork around smaller production runs more frequently, and so I can have some enjoyable game time left. What am I talking about? Well its a hella lot of work to make all the cases of subcomponents within the 1k schematic limitations, all the way through to the finished goods. And then repeat the process days later and over and over again. What if that first time, with the same effort, I was able to make 10k subcomponents, or more. All the repeat effort every few days is ELIMINATED, completely freeing me up to enjoy other aspects of the game, like joining my mates in combat, in DWB, in parties in a cantina, in learning PvP, in surveying... etc. etc. Gametime is crippled by these economy gates that the devs have imposed on us by design to suit their biases, including our time to be social with each other.

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IdleThought wrote:

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RedDestinyCC wrote:

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IdleThought wrote:
I've never seen an official 'motive' for the stance on factories, but the probable, and presumably intended, effect is not to 'help newbies' into the profession but to ensure that SW is a viable profession for the maximum number of playing SW's.

---

No true, devs have always had a theme and communication around "controlling the economy," CSR's have said that there's a strong bias against mass producers/crafters behind the scenes, and that impacts game design decisions. Our lead devs hate mass production, it doesn't fit into their bias, er... view, of how the game should be played, it should all be low level, one-off or small-lot production, no industry, no monopolies. Their concern is ludicrous because anyeone can enter into this game and within reasonable time get their hands on a slew of BER 13/14 harvesters and start to compete for business and earn business. The end result of the devs bias is a bottleneck of inconvenience in production processes, and a major sucking sound of enjoyable gametime.

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Didn't say it didn't exist, said I hadn't seen an official statement that the design decision on the factories was because of it.

I expect it was, but theres a difference between inference and drawing on a statement of fact. Yep. They hate mass production, why? Because they want lots of crafters not a few, but they also want fairly high prices. So, they cap the amount you can produce per hour, reducing the amount of demand a single crafter can meet. Consequence is prices stay high and in theory small time crafters will still get more traffic.

Now it's probably an experiment - and every one who complains that they're spending all their time hand-crafting to meet demand suggests to them that their plan is working. It's not a good argument for factories being needed, because the devs wanted it to work that way.

What will be a good argument for factories is a short supply of components, but not until the number of SW's has levelled off and started falling back towards whatever number the current game design will support.

And, just so we're clear, I favour the status quo on factories - because I tend to agree with the Devs that mass-production is bad for the game as a whole since it makes SW interesting for a larger number of players (probably less good for low prices, but the point of the game is not low prices)

With looted items and chassis that are, properly flown, pretty durable the stable (after this initial rush) SW market isn't going to be that great. This is the wrong time to reconsider if factory support is really needed.

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I personally think it cripples every aspect of this game, as I said in the above reply. It's one of the two root causes why this game doesn't live up to its potential and is the butt end joke of the game mag reviews. It's saddled with busywork. At the end of the day, you can take most problems with this game, and tie them back as symptoms to the fact that people are too ####ed busy with mindless tasks. Busywork.

I can tell you that I would love to explore PvP, or spend time in the cantina with the entertainers, but for as much time as I spend in this game, I have no free time in this game. There's too much time sucked into any single activity around production and crafting, and even combat due to so much decay. Everything you do in this game is a collossal time sink. I'm not saying - before you go completely irrational and misquote me with nonsense - that all the complexity should be eliminated, I'm saying TONE IT THE HELL DOWN. Tone down decay, tone up storage, tone up stacking of resources, tweak here and tweak there to give us some of our game time back to enjoy the complexity without so much of the associated tasks, micromanagement, and workarounds of the dev bias that we have to do.

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Niacia wrote:

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RedDestinyCC wrote:

Right you are Destiny

Freakin Kuat is a corporation, there is, after all... INDUSTRY in the SWG universe. If someone wants to craft it up in bulk and enjoy it, and form cooperatives that mimic industry. Damned it let them. And up that storage to facilitate it. Is that fair to players? Hell yes its fair. They can join an ongoing enterprise or cooperative, they can own and start their own, or they can continue working solo, that's their choice.

"New Devs, new devs, new devs... La la la la la *kicks up feet* la la la" such a happy song.

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Talking to himself? Somehow, this looks as if logging to a different account did not work for some reason. Is this you Peta? Anyway, I might be completely wrong on this one...

And, this person did not vote....

Regards

Niacia

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That was an attempt at humor. *sigh*

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RedDestinyCC wrote:

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Niacia wrote:

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RedDestinyCC wrote:

Right you are Destiny

Freakin Kuat is a corporation, there is, after all... INDUSTRY in the SWG universe. If someone wants to craft it up in bulk and enjoy it, and form cooperatives that mimic industry. Damned it let them. And up that storage to facilitate it. Is that fair to players? Hell yes its fair. They can join an ongoing enterprise or cooperative, they can own and start their own, or they can continue working solo, that's their choice.

"New Devs, new devs, new devs... La la la la la *kicks up feet* la la la" such a happy song.

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Talking to himself? Somehow, this looks as if logging to a different account did not work for some reason. Is this you Peta? Anyway, I might be completely wrong on this one...

And, this person did not vote....

Regards

Niacia

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That was an attempt at humor. *sigh*

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Sorry, I still do not see the joke...

Anyway, I too would like to explore stuff like PvP. But I cannot do this, because all my skillpoints are spend on crafting. Master Droid Engineer, Master Artisan, Master Shipwright. Some Entertainer, some Merchant. So I am happy that crafting takes time. I like searching for new resource spawns. I like RE-ing. I even like crafting for a customer.

I do not like grinding, but that is something I am not doing very much.

Remove the time constraints from crafting, where would that leave me? It would free up my time to play on another account, I guess. Only, I am strictly a one account person. I never would spend money on a second account...

So I would be bored...

I actually like it the way it is.

I have to accept, that you think, crafting is too time consuming. But you have to accept, that other players like it to be time consuming.

Yes, things can be adjusted. Only it is always necessary to see both sides of an argument. And this was, what the poll was about. Right now, there is no broad demand for factories. Maybe, there also is no broad rejection of a factory solution. The result is quite mixed and figuring in things like how to handle multiple accounts, the poll might have gone the other way.

Sure, but a close poll does not show a high urgency for Styx to demand factories.

Let's wait one, two, maybe three months. Then let us discuss this topic again. The market will be a lot more stable. I predict, that the demand will drop quite dramatically, when the combat revamp goes live....

Regards

Niacia