Shipwright Archive

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Niacia wrote:

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EnFERn0 wrote:

No one forces you to use a factory, if you don't want to use it. Don't use it.

I just want the option to use it to spit out the basic parts. Reactors, Armor and Shields are all experimented the same way.

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No shields, reactors or armor are not necessary all made the same. Imagine someone, who has a slight mass problem. He might prefere an armor, that is a little weaker, then you can make it, and a little lighter. He might not be able to use the heavy strong armor, and some armor is better then no armor.

Regards

Niacia

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And you could keep doing that even while others are allowed to use factories. You keep saying that there is a need for custom-made components. I think you are right on that. There is no way that factory-support will remove that need. Thus, you will still have your business from customers that want to take the time and discuss custom-made components with you.

It is true that you will probably lose some of your customer base. You will lose those customers that DO NOT WANT to spend time alone with you discussing each and every component. With factory-support you will no longer be able to force players (both crafters and customers) into the way that you feel the game should be played.

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pervel wrote:

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Niacia wrote:

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EnFERn0 wrote:

No one forces you to use a factory, if you don't want to use it. Don't use it.

I just want the option to use it to spit out the basic parts. Reactors, Armor and Shields are all experimented the same way.

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No shields, reactors or armor are not necessary all made the same. Imagine someone, who has a slight mass problem. He might prefere an armor, that is a little weaker, then you can make it, and a little lighter. He might not be able to use the heavy strong armor, and some armor is better then no armor.

Regards

Niacia

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And you could keep doing that even while others are allowed to use factories. You keep saying that there is a need for custom-made components. I think you are right on that. There is no way that factory-support will remove that need. Thus, you will still have your business from customers that want to take the time and discuss custom-made components with you.

It is true that you will probably lose some of your customer base. You will lose those customers that DO NOT WANT to spend time alone with you discussing each and every component. With factory-support you will no longer be able to force players (both crafters and customers) into the way that you feel the game should be played.

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You're confusing 'custom-made' and 'hand-made'. With factories there is the risk that custom-made alone will be so little traffic (particularly considering the much more 'occasional' nature of ship component purchases) will be too little traffic, leaving everyone stuck with 'factory-made', and, if they're lucky enough to divert someone away from their endless resource hunts, the very occasional bit of custom work.

Forcing people to play the the game in a certain way.

And no-factory forces nobody to shop in a certain way - a group of SW's will be able to stock standard parts fine without factories *apart from the fact it requires more SW's*.

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pervel wrote:

<

And you could keep doing that even while others are allowed to use factories. You keep saying that there is a need for custom-made components. I think you are right on that. There is no way that factory-support will remove that need. Thus, you will still have your business from customers that want to take the time and discuss custom-made components with you.

It is true that you will probably lose some of your customer base. You will lose those customers that DO NOT WANT to spend time alone with you discussing each and every component. With factory-support you will no longer be able to force players (both crafters and customers) into the way that you feel the game should be played.

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I could keep doing that to a degree, yes. Shipwright, with the many customization possibilities, is probably the only crafting profession, where this just might work. But, I am not convinced. What if it does not work?

There simply is no other crafting profession I could choose instead. Where my business model has a chance of working. This situation is different for the industialist party. If you cannot live with handcrafting, you got many other crafting professions to choose from.

So for me simply agreeing to factory crafting might be suicide. SW is much to young to give any reliable prediction about the impact of factories on my business model. Which works quite well at the moment.

So naturally I am opposed to give the industrial lobby the adventage in both volume and quality. I might be convinced to agree to factories, if there was a handcrafting bonus, or a factory use malus...

Similar to things in RL. A handmade pair of shoes is much better then an industrial made one. But more expensive and harder to find.

Regards

Niacia

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IdleThought wrote:


You're confusing 'custom-made' and 'hand-made'. With factories there is the risk that custom-made alone will be so little traffic (particularly considering the much more 'occasional' nature of ship component purchases) will be too little traffic, leaving everyone stuck with 'factory-made', and, if they're lucky enough to divert someone away from their endless resource hunts, the very occasional bit of custom work.

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Yes, there is a "risk" that custom-made components will not be in high demand. However, if this is the case, it simply means that custom-made components are not what the majority of players want. With the no-factory support you are trying to "create" this demand artificially. That is not going to make any players more happy - especially not the customers.

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pervel wrote:

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IdleThought wrote:


You're confusing 'custom-made' and 'hand-made'. With factories there is the risk that custom-made alone will be so little traffic (particularly considering the much more 'occasional' nature of ship component purchases) will be too little traffic, leaving everyone stuck with 'factory-made', and, if they're lucky enough to divert someone away from their endless resource hunts, the very occasional bit of custom work.

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Yes, there is a "risk" that custom-made components will not be in high demand. However, if this is the case, it simply means that custom-made components are not what the majority of players want. With the no-factory support you are trying to "create" this demand artificially. That is not going to make any players more happy - especially not the customers.

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Sorry, I'm obviously not labouring the point enough, - "risk that custom-made *alone* will generate so little traffic" - ie without factories the small shops can supply part custom-made, part hand-made standard parts. With factories added they have to rely far more on custom-made.

If you introduce factories a small core can mass-produce enough that the 'big producers' can soak up all the non-custom trade *leaving* the custom biased small outfits only the custom trade, vastly reducing their numbers and generally forcing people to only get standard parts or harrass endlessly the small number of remaining mass-production shipwrights as they try to hunt down more resources for less than 15cpu.

Currently everything is hand-made, some of it is customised to specific requirements. If you eliminate handmade as viable by introducing factories, even with limited run schematics, *then* small outfits will have to rely on the custom only trade.

This isn't about new people entering the market - obviously they can - but they can only compete by playing the same game - mass production. Without factories you can have mass production - but you need more SW's, creating more 'game' for SW's to play - and create a crafting profession that has an additional variation in the play where something other that the credit high-score is a viable objective.

I went into much more detail on the focus thread on factories, but they would be a disaster for the economy, benefiting the top 2-4 shipwrights on every server while cutting back the business of everyone else, worsening inflation, and collecting huge amounts of credits in the pockets of a few rather than dispersing them more evenly across the server. Of course Peta and the SW shops like him will want factory support--they're already the biggest, and with their capital they are best able to take advantage of the ability to mass produce components. Markets follow power laws: a handful of businesses will own the majority of the market, a few will have some of it, and a horde will have a shred of it. Factories will only heighten the disparity between those richest few SWs and the vast throng of the rest of us--and as their power to dominate a market grows, it will only become all the harder to break into it or expand one's share.

The handcrafted business will remain in the hands of other shipwrights, but we would lose much or all of our standard-stock trade. Meanwhile, tens of millions will be flowing in to the hands of a select few SWs, where they're much more likely to stay than if they were distributed among dozens. This will lead to further stratification and inflation of the entire economy, evils SWG already faces too much of, evils which cannot allowed to be strengthened by the spectre of factories.

Workers of the world...

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PetaByte32 wrote:

I think the very ironic thing about this thread is how alot of the people posting about no factory support for shipwrights are the same ones that want an FS conversion.

Interesting how they are quick to say that shipwright is like every other crafting profession so they should get an FS conversion but when the issue of factory support comes upthey are just as quick to point out how different this profession is from other crafting professions.

Tyranus

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1. Show me how to run 100 bio-engineered Rancors through a factory


2. Show me how to collect the Shipwright XP currently being ground by 100 Image Rec torpedoes in a factory right now (I'm 3122 Shipwright and it's painful to give away any XP right now)

You're not entirely on base here. Seriously, your 'business' has grown beyond your means (or your desire)to meet the demand. This happens in real world business as well. If you want to meet 300+ sales per week, you have to invest the time to do so. You want to add personal touches to your products while meeting larger volumes of demand. That's about as feasible as Bill Gates personally autographing every box of Windows XP being sold.

At some point, every businessperson has to evalute the amount of time they're willing to invest in their business in respect to the demand they're willing to meet with their products or services. 'Personal touches' are the first sacrifice made when deciding to meet large demand. And in this game, the time investment that crafting ships involves is the only thing that provides for anyopportunity among crafters.

How much a person takes advantage of that opportunity is based entirely on how much they're willing to put in. That is exactly how things should be: You get out what your put into it. It's up to you how much you're willing to put in. And unlike most other situations in this game, it's actually fair to everyone that way.

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pervel wrote:

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IdleThought wrote:


You're confusing 'custom-made' and 'hand-made'. With factories there is the risk that custom-made alone will be so little traffic (particularly considering the much more 'occasional' nature of ship component purchases) will be too little traffic, leaving everyone stuck with 'factory-made', and, if they're lucky enough to divert someone away from their endless resource hunts, the very occasional bit of custom work.

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Yes, there is a "risk" that custom-made components will not be in high demand. However, if this is the case, it simply means that custom-made components are not what the majority of players want. With the no-factory support you are trying to "create" this demand artificially. That is not going to make any players more happy - especially not the customers.

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Oh, I am sure, all pilots would prefer custom made components. If they find those. Problem is, with some very big shops out there (and some business will get bigger with factory support and lot trades), it actually gets harder to find the small shops.
Actually, is it really that hard to find stuff? I hit master shipwright about a week ago. Put on my master shipwright title. So far, I did not have a single tell due to my title. If the situation was as desperate as some people are describing it, I sureley would have had more then one tell.

Somehow, I cannot believe, the situation is as bad as some people want me to believe.

Regards

Niacia

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Rhysen wrote:

Unless you can:

1. Show me how to run 100 bio-engineered Rancors through a factory


2. Show me how to collect the Shipwright XP currently being ground by 100 Image Rec torpedoes in a factory right now (I'm 3122 Shipwright and it's painful to give away any XP right now)

You're not entirely on base here. Seriously, your 'business' has grown beyond your means (or your desire)to meet the demand. This happens in real world business as well. If you want to meet 300+ sales per week, you have to invest the time to do so. You want to add personal touches to your products while meeting larger volumes of demand. That's about as feasible as Bill Gates personally autographing every box of Windows XP being sold.

At some point, every businessperson has to evalute the amount of time they're willing to invest in their business in respect to the demand they're willing to meet with their products or services. 'Personal touches' are the first sacrifice made when deciding to meet large demand. And in this game, the time investment that crafting ships involves is the only thing that provides for anyopportunity among crafters.

Comparing to the real world is a bad thing but ok here goes. At some point, every businessperson can get modern technology to help them. Thank you very much.

How much a person takes advantage of that opportunity is based entirely on how much they're willing to put in. That is exactly how things should be: You get out what your put into it. It's up to you how much you're willing to put in. And unlike most other situations in this game, it's actually fair to everyone that way.

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Basically what this means is that companies like Kuat, Mon Cal, and Mandalmotors have hordes of employees making their parts since for some odd reason they cant use factories. All this modern technology in the Star Wars universe and they havent learned what Ford taught years ago? They can makefusion generators, lasers, and modern medicine but they havent been able to figure out how to make a sheet of armor mass produced? Oh they can make weapons mass produced but darn it they just arent smart enough to get a factory to pump out a few armor panels. Yah right sure.

Tyranus

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PetaByte32 wrote:

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Rhysen wrote:

Unless you can:

1. Show me how to run 100 bio-engineered Rancors through a factory
2. Show me how to collect the Shipwright XP currently being ground by 100 Image Rec torpedoes in a factory right now (I'm 3122 Shipwright and it's painful to give away any XP right now)

You're not entirely on base here. Seriously, your 'business' has grown beyond your means (or your desire) to meet the demand. This happens in real world business as well. If you want to meet 300+ sales per week, you have to invest the time to do so. You want to add personal touches to your products while meeting larger volumes of demand. That's about as feasible as Bill Gates personally autographing every box of Windows XP being sold.

At some point, every businessperson has to evalute the amount of time they're willing to invest in their business in respect to the demand they're willing to meet with their products or services. 'Personal touches' are the first sacrifice made when deciding to meet large demand. And in this game, the time investment that crafting ships involves is the only thing that provides for any opportunity among crafters.

Comparing to the real world is a bad thing but ok here goes. At some point, every businessperson can get modern technology to help them. Thank you very much.

How much a person takes advantage of that opportunity is based entirely on how much they're willing to put in. That is exactly how things should be: You get out what your put into it. It's up to you how much you're willing to put in. And unlike most other situations in this game, it's actually fair to everyone that way.

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Basically what this means is that companies like Kuat, Mon Cal, and Mandalmotors have hordes of employees making their parts since for some odd reason they cant use factories. All this modern technology in the Star Wars universe and they havent learned what Ford taught years ago? They can make fusion generators, lasers, and modern medicine but they havent been able to figure out how to make a sheet of armor mass produced? Oh they can make weapons mass produced but darn it they just arent smart enough to get a factory to pump out a few armor panels. Yah right sure.

Tyranus

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Uh.. So what?

Jedi, Mining 'Steel', Cloning Centres... This games not great on either sticking to the Universe or reality.. and as for the physics of spacecraft..

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IdleThought wrote:


Sorry, I'm obviously not labouring the point enough, - "risk that custom-made *alone* will generate so little traffic" - ie without factories the small shops can supply part custom-made, part hand-made standard parts. With factories added they have to rely far more on custom-made.

If you introduce factories a small core can mass-produce enough that the 'big producers' can soak up all the non-custom trade *leaving* the custom biased small outfits only the custom trade, vastly reducing their numbers and generally forcing people to only get standard parts or harrass endlessly the small number of remaining mass-production shipwrights as they try to hunt down more resources for less than 15cpu.

Currently everything is hand-made, some of it is customised to specific requirements. If you eliminate handmade as viable by introducing factories, even with limited run schematics, *then* small outfits will have to rely on the custom only trade.

This isn't about new people entering the market - obviously they can - but they can only compete by playing the same game - mass production. Without factories you can have mass production - but you need more SW's, creating more 'game' for SW's to play - and create a crafting profession that has an additional variation in the play where something other that the credit high-score is a viable objective.

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Ok first you said this isnt about new people entering the market. They can only compete by playing the same game - mass production. So basically without factory support its a whole new game? You guys dont get it. Its the same game. Just the road is longer now. That is the only difference.

And you guys are arguing your own points right here. You dont realize what your saying. Ships above all else require alot of custom parts. Different masses, energy reqs. and so on. So the custom crafter will still be as strong as a mass produce crafter. This isnt a product like a Scout Blaster that is already made and ready to go the moment you equip it. This is a ship with a variety of different options YOU have to decide on.

The amount of resources alone would limit severely what would and would not be mass produced if factory support was put in full swing. I see this now with the higher Mark missile packs. To make 100 Mark III missile packs, I think, you need over 200k steel. Honestly how many people have made a full 1k run of these things? I surely havent. I usually make 25 at a time.

But I am not asking for full factory support. Something you guys seem to miss the point of. I am asking for a little more support. Like add armor panels to factory lists. I actually go through armor panels more then anything else. Even more then missile packs. Mainly because the armor hitpoints also decays so a person has to come in for a refit every 3 to 5 flights. Of all the parts I had to make this last time, 50% was armor. If we had limited supported just on that I could have popped what was needed in a factory and concentrated on the other parts. Giving me more time to make good parts instead of just slamming the bar over and over.

As of now we got 4 shipwrights in the guild and one outside the guild. Only 1 master. But that is fine. Guess what you got now? Your so scared about the small time crafters being hurt. Well sorry but they are still being hurt even without factories because of the shipwrights that are now grouping together. So you want to eliminate shipwrights helping each other too? Afterall it gives a serious advantage to the groups and not the solo shipwrights. We have to be fair in everything. We cant just be selective in our fairness. It has to spread evenly. So maybe shipwrights shouldnt be able to help each other or work together. Then of course there is the spawns of resources. Some shipwrights have alot of lots at their disposal. That isnt fair to the small time crafters at all. So we should force shipwrights to only use their lots. I mean come on guys. You want 100% fairness so lets get serious with this.

Sounds a little crazy huh? That is what the anti factory guys sound like to me. "Oh we have to be fair to the small shipwrights and give them a chance." But the market for custom made parts is so much wider then the other crafting professions. And you all know it. Even if they gave full factory support, the custom crafters would still be needed. Maybe even more so. But you cant see past that.

The point is this. Eventhough the factory support is limited, the big guilds and crafting groups will still win. Sorry but its a fact. Because one simple thing. Numbers. Whether they are crafting 1000 parts in factories compared to the poor little shipwright only crafting 100 or if they are handcrafting 100 parts between 5 shipwrights and the little poor shipwright is only hand crafting 10 parts, the big guy will win.

And its notabout win or lose to me. This is something else. Ask Vyto or other shipwrights on my server that I deal with. I am more then willing to help them anyway I can. Because for me I enjoy the handcrafting part of shipwright. But how can I when I gotta slam the bar over and over? Point click point click point click. That isnt crafting. That is just making ourselves the factories.

You say with full factory support its the person with the most factories who wins. Now its the person with the most shipwrights who wins. Same thing just a longer road.

Tyranus

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PetaByte32 wrote:

You say with full factory support its the person with the most factories who wins. Now its the person with the most shipwrights who wins. Same thing just a longer road.

Tyranus

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You think those two things are the same? You're *really* missing the point.

And maybe factory support will be required for 'the good of the game' in the long run, but there's no screaming crisis yet just a vocal minority that don't like the status quo.

--
Okacyzzyk
"Moisture Farmers 4TW"