Shipwright Archive
Thread: SPACE LOOT SYSTEM NEEDs BIG TIME CHANGE ASAP...PLEASE!
Diorchas
Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:41 am
#53
It's a shame no one has taken the time to explain the difference between "opinion" and "truth" to you.
If your guildy pal is making any profit at all on the sale you mentioned it is EXTREMELY slim. So slim, in fact, as to be close to non-existent. If he wants to charge that little that's his business, but just because HE does doesn't make his price the benchmark by which "fairness" is judged. You got a great deal. Be happy about it. But don't hold it up saying "See? This is what you all should be charging! If you're not you're greedy bastards out to gouge all us honest, hard-working combat types!"
Pfft. Bottom line is that SWG was created as a player-run economy. That means Free Market if you need it spelled out for you. And in a Free Market Economy the BUYER determines what is fair and not fair. As a Shipwright if I was charging too much I wouldn't have any revenue. If I didn't have any revenue I'd lower my prices until I did. But see, here's the thing... I take in PLENTY of revenue at the prices I charge. That means that my prices are fair. Period. End of story. Stop the presses. There is no arguing with it, because it is manifestly true.
I'm sorry that you feel so cheated, Cleek, though why you would when you have your sugar daddy still baffles me. But ultimately things in this game are worth what people will pay for them. If you think my prices, or the guy next door's, are too high you don't buy from us. You go find someone else selling for cheaper. That's the way business works.
Your statement that including NPC vendors would help PC business is so ridiculously laughable that I don't even know what to say to it. Do you really believe the stuff you're spouting? Honestly?
I think every crafter can admit that there are some there who give us a bad name. We all tend to get down on them when we find them. But until you gain a little respect for the amount of time, effort and in-game capital a crafter puts in to his character/business you have no hope of actually understanding where we're coming from. Does that make you a blithering idiot? Not really. Just woefully, inexcusably, uninformed for someone as interested in spouting rhetoric as you are.
Golrok
Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:53 pm
#54
GadonThek wrote:
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
HULK SMASH GREEDY MORONS!
To quote another Shipwright: "The only Shipwrights moaning about how 'uber' the space loot is, are the ones who have NO IDEA how to craft good stuff, or cant get hold of the right resources."
When I mastered Imperial pilot, do you know how many looted parts I used? Three, a pre-nerf droid interface, a booster and a capacitor. EVERYTHING ELSE was crafted, blasters, shields, armour, engine, launchers....all crafted. Ive shelled out nearly 3 million credits to other Shipwrights so far(I dont have the cash or inclination to lay my hands on resources of high enough quality to craft my own bits yet), and every other pilot I talk to who's above Tier 1 and has a bank account of more than 100k uses 90% crafted over looted for everything except caps and boosters.
The loot system is fine as it is, it is NOT overpowered in comparison to Crafted items, except in the cases of boosters, caps and engine YPR(which should be fixed by bumping crafted versions, not nerfing looted ones). You do NOT deserve the right to make "teh ubar" componants just because you mastered the profession, put some damn effort into crafting good stuff before you try and destroy one of the most entertaining content to be put into SWG since its inception!
Crafted YPR should be enhanced by slicers but we all know that that can never happen because it would break a tradition of not hooking up smugglers.
Rhysen
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:14 pm
#55
cleekjc wrote:
I did notice you decided not to comment on the loot, any particular reason?
I know I have it good because I have a guild mate who is not out to screw players, the sad thing is I am considered lucky when it should be the norm.(when he picked up SW’s he was laughing about the absurd prices they were charging) No, only after other players decided to become SW's, or after you started seeing some competition for fair prices would be the correct statement, and no if you were not making any revenue you would cry nerf see my loot example, it has worked before……
You were FORCED to cut your prices or go out of business. Ultimately prices are what they are in the game because we have no choices, Well we do actually, we always opt to not buy anything.......... the ship loot is a perfect example of this.
Nerfing the loot was the worst option to fix this but it is what SW's cried for, have you seen any posts from SW's asking to make equipment that is marginally better than what can be looted? No you don’t, you just see nerf posts
The grand daddy of all MMORPG's UO had NPC vendors as well as PC vendors and the economy did not crash it worked quite well, actually and still does to this day. The devs of that game actually took some time and coded some intelligence in to the economy not just hand the whole thing it over to a part of the player population and let them do as they wish with it……….
Sure I'll comment on loot. WHAT DROP IN LOOT?
I'd like to know, seriously I would. Because I've been getting the same amount of loot since I purchased JTL. The value of the loot far outweighing the rewards for completing stages of the duty misisons. If you're talking about a bunch of Master Pilots sitting on a tier 1 spawn in their B-Wings/Oppressors/ Rhyzzzzz, acting like good little Farmer Joes, you'll have to ask someone that spends their playtime doing that. Ionly doduty missions and required missions. not loot-farm.
What I have noticed is some of the more glaring abberations in loot quality have been removed. Things like lvl 2 capacitors having stats greater than lvl 6-7 counterparts. Level 1 droid interfaces with speeds equal and beyond those of level 8+. Now did you honestly, sincerely and trully, believe that it was intended for some of those components to have stats better than components 4+ levels higher than them? Did you honestly believe that with mass being the only significant restricting factor to prevent ships from gaining unintended amounts of firepower/defenses, that components with the mass fitting for very light fighters to have stats appropriate for components that'd only fit inside a MP ship?
Oh, and you knowzero about UO's economy. UO's economy went through several meltdowns, mainly because the the closed economy and the inflation caused by NPC 'freebies'. Or don't you remember the dragons?
EzMonger wrote:
Its a shame that sometimes what you see as truth is only your opinion....
To prove my point lets look back at posts of people who are not Shipwrights who say the loot system is unfair... oh wait.. NO ONE.
I agree with things that Cleek, Gaddon Thek and others views... I even liked Galrok's idea on the Smuggler slicing of engines.... makes more sense than slicing armor in some respects.
Most of the prices of ALL crafters, not just shipwrights, are rediculous. I will say this.... yes some of your parts should be expensive... granted... but not anything like charging 10:1 or 20:1 for items... thats just stupid... I was a crafter once... I had to do all this stuff also and I sure the heck didn't charge customers more than 3:1 for items... most of the time I didn't go over 2:1. You talk about a free market... then in that same "free market" when someone undersells the general populace they are labled an undercutter and are shamed by the rest of the community for charging less than 5 or 6 to 1 for their items..... When new artisans come to the boards and ask about fair price.... the current members of sed community promptly tell the guy to charge high5:1 +prices. Then when everyone is charging these nice,high prices... the rest of the player community is FORCED to do nothing but purchase items for the inflated price because there is NO other choice. Free market indeed. Free Market would beactually offering competetive pricesinstead of slanderingthose with cheaper prices than you soyou can keep your bank account above a million credits... and dont tell meits not... because we all know it is. Find more constructive ways to fix problems than nerfing things...all the winey bastards in this game havenerfedalot ofthe fun out of the ground game already.... don't beg the devs to nerf the fun out of the space gametoo.
You were a crafter? What profession. Feel free to tell me you charged 453 creds for a Powerhammer. Or 1566 creds for a Composite Chest Piece. Did your Fusion Reactors go over the 78195 creds a 3:1 cpu would be? Please tell me you have some spare Vasarian Brandy at 225 per somewhere on Chilastra.
The only crafters that might charge that3:1 nonsense you just uttered is a Tailor. Because few people feel that simply looking good is worth a 37:1 cpu price tag. Cept maybe me, since that's what I paid per Heavily Reinforced Jacket, 4 total, at 5k each. I do happen to feel looking good is worth the price. And the Tailor's time for the custom colors and matching pants/shirts/boots/glovesvests was damn sure worth it.
Message Edited by Rhysen on 12-23-2004 04:26 PM
1st_Viduus
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:26 pm
#56
OK let's say we want to charge 2:1 ...
Having to buy resources (to make the quality stuff that will sell, not grind-crap) we are "forced" as you say to pay the resource prices of the people with many accounts who plant dozens of harvestors... who can sell the same resource to an armorsmith for what they consider a fair price, but shipwrights don't. Let's say I find a deal and get someone selling top-end for 10cpu.
Now, for a Tier 2 hull the resource list is ^ cpl posts up.
30k resources * 10 cpu = 300k for the hull, at cost, then 2:1 == 600k for a tier2 hull.
That's what you're suggesting.
Do you know any Shipwrights selling any Tier2 hulls for that price? No.
Why not?
Shipwright resource requirements are such that we can charge 10 cpu or so tops. TOPS. That is of course over cost -- no shipwright I know only buys resources - we pay 10cpu for some, and mine others -- mining steel saves us a ton, and if we're lucky enough to get one of our *many* required named resource spawns we save there as well.
Some resources we need to pay 20cpu for, due to rarity / not currently spawned / demand.
So it works out that average cost for quality crafted goods, at least on Ahazi, is somewhere around the 6-8 cpu mark, including incidentals.
And most^ SW sell for 10. Less than 2:1 by far, closer to 1.3:1 on average.
Yet we're still called greedy, gougers, thieves, et cetera et alad nausium.
I said already... I was just a pilot and wanted the truth of why crafted was so costly, so I mastered SW. And you know, as someone else said up a few posts, it's the pilots that are greedy asking for everything dirt cheap.
Someone sent me a /tell yesterday asking for a Tie Oppressor for 100k. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ya right!
But, that's to be expected I guess.... since, as has been said way too many times in this thread... they could get it free, why should they pay a *fair* price for any of it?!
cleekjc
Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:13 am
#57
I did notice you decided not to comment on the loot, any particular reason?
I know I have it good because I have a guild mate who is not out to screw players, the sad thing is I am considered lucky when it should be the norm.(when he picked up SW’s he was laughing about the absurd prices they were charging) No, only after other players decided to become SW's, or after you started seeing some competition for fair prices would be the correct statement, and no if you were not making any revenue you would cry nerf see my loot example, it has worked before……
You were FORCED to cut your prices or go out of business. Ultimately prices are what they are in the game because we have no choices, Well we do actually, we always opt to not buy anything.......... the ship loot is a perfect example of this.
Nerfing the loot was the worst option to fix this but it is what SW's cried for, have you seen any posts from SW's asking to make equipment that is marginally better than what can be looted? No you don’t, you just see nerf posts
The grand daddy of all MMORPG's UO had NPC vendors as well as PC vendors and the economy did not crash it worked quite well, actually and still does to this day. The devs of that game actually took some time and coded some intelligence in to the economy not just hand the whole thing it over to a part of the player population and let them do as they wish with it……….
1st_Viduus
Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:32 am
#58
First...:
SW's didn't "cry for loot nerf"... sw's asked that what we produce be competitive. The 92.2 engine was overpowered by far, and everyone who gets that far in their training gets one, period... and that is the ONLY nerf that was ever asked for, afaik. That SOE decided to nerf *everything* is not our fault, it's their unimaginative/lazy solution to a problem that exists.
SW's didn't "cry for loot nerf"... sw's asked that what we produce be competitive. The 92.2 engine was overpowered by far, and everyone who gets that far in their training gets one, period... and that is the ONLY nerf that was ever asked for, afaik. That SOE decided to nerf *everything* is not our fault, it's their unimaginative/lazy solution to a problem that exists.
Second:
You are lucky to have a friend who sells at a loss. Unless he's paying multiple accounts (3 or more) and has 25+ harvesters going, he's taking a loss at that price. Period. I wanted to know why SW stuff was so expensive, so I mastered Shipwright.
Average price for LOW end resources is 3cpu. Mid-grade, 5. ANY quality or named resource can go for 10 to 20 cpu.
Your friend either takes a loss in-game or takes a loss out-of-game (RL money for multiple accounts) or he has a lot of friend that give him resources -- so his friends take a loss. Either way, someone is losing.
Tier 2 hull (all hulls of a tier use exactly the same resources):
12,000 steel
6,000 low-grade ore
3,000 iron
3,000 aluminum
3,000 inert petrochemical
3,000 fiberplast
_____________________
30,000 resources for a Tier 2 Hull.
I'll let you do the math on the CPU cost at 50k. Which, if he bought his resources dirt cheap grind qualityfor an average of 2cpu would be 60,000 credits, a loss of 10k per hull.
I'll let you do the math on the CPU cost at 50k. Which, if he bought his resources dirt cheap grind qualityfor an average of 2cpu would be 60,000 credits, a loss of 10k per hull.
P.S.:
If you also factor in his time (not making cash flying while crafting or looking for resources or taking care of harvs), his expenses (vendors, house, power and maintenance for harvs, tools {crafting station}) and other miscellaneous costs -- he's losing somewhat more than 10k.
Message Edited by 1st_Viduus on 12-23-2004 03:38 PM
Golrok
Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:49 am
#59
cleekjc wrote:I did notice you decided not to comment on the loot, any particular reason?I know I have it good because I have a guild mate who is not out to screw players, the sad thing is I am considered lucky when it should be the norm.(when he picked up SW’s he was laughing about the absurd prices they were charging) No, only after other players decided to become SW's, or after you started seeing some competition for fair prices would be the correct statement, and no if you were not making any revenue you would cry nerf see my loot example, it has worked before……You were FORCED to cut your prices or go out of business. Ultimately prices are what they are in the game because we have no choices, Well we do actually, we always opt to not buy anything.......... the ship loot is a perfect example of this.Nerfing the loot was the worst option to fix this but it is what SW's cried for, have you seen any posts from SW's asking to make equipment that is marginally better than what can be looted? No you don’t, you just see nerf posts
The grand daddy of all MMORPG's UO had NPC vendors as well as PC vendors and the economy did not crash it worked quite well, actually and still does to this day. The devs of that game actually took some time and coded some intelligence in to the economy not just hand the whole thing it over to a part of the player population and let them do as they wish with it……….
I dont comment when it regaurds a dead horse...
EzMonger
Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:51 am
#60
Diorchas wrote:
It's a shame no one has taken the time to explain the difference between "opinion" and "truth" to you.
If your guildy pal is making any profit at all on the sale you mentioned it is EXTREMELY slim. So slim, in fact, as to be close to non-existent. If he wants to charge that little that's his business, but just because HE does doesn't make his price the benchmark by which "fairness" is judged. You got a great deal. Be happy about it. But don't hold it up saying "See? This is what you all should be charging! If you're not you're greedy bastards out to gouge all us honest, hard-working combat types!"
Pfft. Bottom line is that SWG was created as a player-run economy. That means Free Market if you need it spelled out for you. And in a Free Market Economy the BUYER determines what is fair and not fair. As a Shipwright if I was charging too much I wouldn't have any revenue. If I didn't have any revenue I'd lower my prices until I did. But see, here's the thing... I take in PLENTY of revenue at the prices I charge. That means that my prices are fair. Period. End of story. Stop the presses. There is no arguing with it, because it is manifestly true.
I'm sorry that you feel so cheated, Cleek, though why you would when you have your sugar daddy still baffles me. But ultimately things in this game are worth what people will pay for them. If you think my prices, or the guy next door's, are too high you don't buy from us. You go find someone else selling for cheaper. That's the way business works.
Your statement that including NPC vendors would help PC business is so ridiculously laughable that I don't even know what to say to it. Do you really believe the stuff you're spouting? Honestly?
I think every crafter can admit that there are some there who give us a bad name. We all tend to get down on them when we find them. But until you gain a little respect for the amount of time, effort and in-game capital a crafter puts in to his character/business you have no hope of actually understanding where we're coming from. Does that make you a blithering idiot? Not really. Just woefully, inexcusably, uninformed for someone as interested in spouting rhetoric as you are.
Its a shame that sometimes what you see as truth is only your opinion....
To prove my point lets look back at posts of people who are not Shipwrights who say the loot system is unfair... oh wait.. NO ONE.
I agree with things that Cleek, Gaddon Thek and others views... I even liked Galrok's idea on the Smuggler slicing of engines.... makes more sense than slicing armor in some respects.
Most of the prices of ALL crafters, not just shipwrights, are rediculous. I will say this.... yes some of your parts should be expensive... granted... but not anything like charging 10:1 or 20:1 for items... thats just stupid... I was a crafter once... I had to do all this stuff also and I sure the heck didn't charge customers more than 3:1 for items... most of the time I didn't go over 2:1. You talk about a free market... then in that same "free market" when someone undersells the general populace they are labled an undercutter and are shamed by the rest of the community for charging less than 5 or 6 to 1 for their items..... When new artisans come to the boards and ask about fair price.... the current members of sed community promptly tell the guy to charge high5:1 +prices. Then when everyone is charging these nice,high prices... the rest of the player community is FORCED to do nothing but purchase items for the inflated price because there is NO other choice. Free market indeed. Free Market would beactually offering competetive pricesinstead of slanderingthose with cheaper prices than you soyou can keep your bank account above a million credits... and dont tell meits not... because we all know it is. Find more constructive ways to fix problems than nerfing things...all the winey bastards in this game havenerfedalot ofthe fun out of the ground game already.... don't beg the devs to nerf the fun out of the space gametoo.
Jagged-F3l
Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:35 am
#61
Seriah-EH wrote:
OK, this debate is retarded. It's all luck. Luck on the loot. JUST LIKE IN THE GROUND GAME. What ground person would choose a crafted weapon over a good DOT weapon? OK, I'm sure there are a few players out there that hate everything about DOT weapons, but the only profession I know of that uses mainly crafted weapons is TK, and thats because DOT VK's are so rare as to be almost a myth. Riflemen/women use crafted rifles...but they are crafted WITH loot.
If the shipwrights stop RE'ing for free, then your problem would be over. Refuse to RE for free. Offer a slightly higher price for RE components than the chassis broker. RE the stuff and sell it back. I know you really want those Firespray schem pieces, so that you can sell them for 8 mil or so a piece, but isn't that YOUR problem? You have a ship. GO LOOT SOME CRAP YOURSELF.
Loot drops are no where near as uber as you all are trying to make them out to be. I am working on my 6th Ace badge, and I have garnered much loot....but 98% or so was trash. Credits? Negligable. When JTL was released, I had a little over 40 mil....i am under a mil now. Almost every dime went to shipwrights because of the speed at which i burn through my chassis. Because looted armor is a joke. Because until you get a good level 8 shield, crafted is the way to go. Because any pilot automatically HAS to purchase all those chassis. Because to GET a good looted component, you have to loot 90 or so crappy ones. Because you have to loot 30 good ones before you have enough to RE a really good component.(For some reason, I give all my chassi away when I'm done using them...so the next time I want to start on the same faction piloting again, I have to buy all over. But unlike all this whining, I'll admit that it's MY PROBLEM. I chose to do this, I have to drop my credits to undo it. You had to spend millions to grind Shipwright? YOUR CHOICE.)
Waaa it doesnt decay fast enought! Neither do my rifles, and I've been using the SAME THREE since I started playing the game almost 6 months ago. (Well, not counting the first week it took me to be ABLE to use these rifles.)
I know I ramble a bit, but what I'm trying to say is.......
I chose to grind all these different pilot professions. I chose to do that. It isn't my local shipwright or the Devs problem that it cost me so much. I CHOSE IT.
You chose to grind shipwright. That isnt my problem, and it isn't the problem of my fellow pilots. Nor is it the problem of the devs. YOUR CHOICE. You made it. Noone else made it for you. Everyone knew competition in the SW profession would be high. Yet there are still10-15 shipwrights for every armorsmith on my server. And you STILL chose to be a SW. Your choice, not ours....get off it and stop screaming for nerfs and skill boosts and crap. Or should the weaponsmiths start crying cause they can't craft the uber DOT weapons? Armorsmiths because they can't craft kimo scales?
It isn't about luck at all. I'm going to say it again and again. Players will use looted components before they spend their hard earned cash. In many instances, it doesn't matter whether the loot is good. Especially the new players that came into the game just for JTL.
And one comment on the "your choice" remarks. The purpose of this forum is to openly discuss problems and issues in the interest of making this game better for everyone. The "your choice" attitude is not constructive and doesn't help us identify the problem and come up withpossible solutions.
Jagged-F3l
Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:37 am
#62
Marzuk147 wrote:
"I had a little over 40 mil....i am under a mil now. Almost every dime went to shipwrights because of the speed at which i burn through my chassis. Because looted armor is a joke. Because until you get a good level 8 shield, crafted is the way to go. Because any pilot automatically HAS to purchase all those chassis."
You know what they say about a fool and his money. If you spent 39 MILLION credits on ships, you got bent over, just admit it.
Either that or he just needs to learn some basics about space combat.
Jagged-F3l
Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:41 am
#63
Rhysen wrote:
Honestly, I feel that Shipwrights should produce the best items. The same way Armorsmiths produce the best armor and Weaponsmiths produce the best weapons (barring DoTs which will prolly get nerfed in the CU). BUT there also has to be something to RE. And that does include the participation of the Shipwright.
My best suggestion would be to modify the enhancements system found in armor/weapon creation. Leave loot as it is but the loot itself not usable until it's combined with a working component during the creation process. People kill Krayts for enhancements to take to a weaponsmith to make a better blaster. And that system works. If the Krayt dropped a fully functional rifle or carbine, the system wouldn't work. Weaponsmiths would have no business and Krayts would be an endangered species.
Face it, the RE system was introduced as a distraction from the whole space loot system. In my opinion, it all needs to be removed from the game.
Can you imagine looting really uber rifles and taking them to a weaponsmith to be RE'd? Wonder how weaponsmiths would feel about that? It is the same thing, and the devs (in the past) have decreed that they would never introduce the kind of loot that would hurt crafters or the player economy. The whole space loot system runs smack in the face of what the devs told us for so long.
Jagged-F3l
Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:44 am
#64
warrenbassist wrote:
I've enjoyed the "free ride" this far into JTL. Can't complain if it ended. I'm a bit afraid if they try to fix this they will mess up the firespray disc drop.
As far as being a ship weapons launcher and chaff dispenser vendor that is the biggest waste.
Who cares about the Firespray disk drops? This, like the RE system, is just another distraction the devs introduced to distract you from the space loot system. You can't think about RE'ing and Firespray disks. You have to unwrap yourself from this and realize just how much space loot hurts SWs and the player economy.
Jagged-F3l
Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:51 am
#65
cleekjc wrote:
This discussion is quite funny. The devs actually give players a choice to get out from under the tyranny of your over priced equipment and you shipwrights are up in arms about it. What you are really angry about (but will not say) is you can’t stand the fact, that because of loot players can give you and your absurd prices the big ole FU! The real fix here is to allow SW's (and all crafters, for that matter) to make marginally better equipment than what can be looted, that way your prices are guaranteed to be in check.................
This might seem like a fix to you. However, you're trying to cure the symptom, not the problem. I will reiterate, there will always be that class of players that will use a looted component before spending a single credit on player crafted components.
And what tyranny are you talking about? First, if you don't like it, become a crafter and make some money, or become a crafter and lowball everyone to set a new precedent. Second, you have realize that everything became inflated in price due to solo groups. Combat players had money to spend, creating a demand for everything. When demand goes up, prices go up with it. The devs let this "little problem" continue for too long.