Shipwright Archive
Thread: An Observation Regarding Low Ballers and their Future as Shipwrights.
Lustiniel
Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:58 pm
#40
I have 26 harvesters running for me at all time (16 are mine, 10 are from my best friend). Resources cost me 0.35 cpu to get that way. I sell chassis at 3 cpu and components at 8 cpu and i am still making huge profits. Why would i charge more when i can definitly run my buisness like that ?
Dont blame the shipwrights selling low, blame the miners who are inflating their prices !
JeCy
Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:17 pm
#41
lowballers will always be there, its there loss really. They wont be making high end stuff, and there service is usually as crapy as there products.
just a little side story, last night i was out flying imp missions and was at the emporers retreat. there was this guy asking about ships and if i had a decimator, or what ever that big chasis is, well i didnt soo i figured i would make it and to be nice i said, here 500k one time only deal.. I sell them at 1.4 million using top end resources. I happend to have stuff on me and just flet like being nice. Wanna know what he told me? keep it thats way over priced. I said thats 140k resources in that one ship. he said well then you should be selling it for 150k.. i waved and said later. People dont have any clue what it takes to run a good store, and have qaulity service. This same person will go out and pay 1 million + for some loot drop weapon or 350k for a suit of stun composite and 15k for buffs that lasta few hours. and then they cry ship wrights are over priced. All the good ones out there should stick by our guns.
When there low end ships and crap parts are all anyone has and there service is about as good as sit down at mc'donalds.. they will start coming to the people that know how to do it right. Those low ballers aint gonna be custom making tie's with a 20306 load out in a 20312 mass ship... It just aint happening.
Je'Cy
Ebonfire
Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:34 pm
#42
Seems like the standard on Kauri is 10 cpu, but it was the same for heavy harvesters many months ago. The architect profession was the old bulk resources profession, and undercutter has since drove prices down to 2.5-3.5 cpu for products.. many architects gave up on the profession because of this. With the changes to solo groups coming shortly, and more shipwrights reaching master, I can very easily see this profession being rulled by competitive low ballers. This is something I considered whendeciding to not go shipwright... the ship market will soon reach saturation.
Maxila
Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:22 am
#43
It all depends on how you get your resources, since I'm ina large guild many guldies let me use lots for no charge. I often have 20-25 harvestors going at once, SWG Craft calcuator shows it generally cost around .14 CPU to mine a resource with a good concentration (thats .14not 14).
If you mine your own resources you can sell dirt cheap 1 cpu or less and still make a good profit. I generally sell chassis for 2.5 CPU and components from 5-10 CPU.
Since I brought the subject up, theonly reason I mine my resources is people are pigs when pricing resources. Considering how cheap it is to mine, charging 2000% to 7000% markup (about 3 to 10 CPU) is total insanity. The only exception would be for an older hard to get uber resource.
But most pelple charge 3 to 5 CPU for crap resources.
Lustiniel
Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:32 am
#44
LonelyGhost wrote:I liked something said above, and will echo it....Just becuase you can get the resources yourself at .5 or less does not mean you "should" sell your stuff at 2 or 3cpu...yes, its a nice markup from what you paid to get the resources.....but.....You can sell the resources for that or MORE....so in essence, YOU are paying OTHER people to craft stuff for THEM! IF I was a WS in need of good steel, and also a Pilot in need of a weapon....you could sell me your raw steel for 5-100cpu (depending on its stats and rarity), or you could sell me a weapon made with that steel for 2 or 3cpu. Which way seems to make sense?But it really doesnt matter. SOme people just dont care if their actions go against every practical capatalistic instinct. But I bet if this were real life, they wouldn't be paying people to shop at their store, hehehe.
Thats not false. I am charging 3 cpu for chassis because i am using resources that have average stats (600-700) that i mined myself. Of course i never use my best ore and my best duralloy steel in ship chassis apart from custom orders for people who wants mass as high as possible and then i charge 10-15 cpu.
The other day, an imperial pilot complained to me that the mass on my oppressor was lower than what he had seen on other vendors. When i told him that i would make him a top quality one for 1.5 million instead of 450k, he bought the lower one. All players do not have millions, i feel its my job as a shipwright to provide both alternative.
Now i dont see any reason to charge 5-10 cpu for all my chassis because other shipwrights are. I care more about my customer than the size of my wallet !
Lee'la
TomoRainer
Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:26 am
#45
This is going to be a minor treatise on the price of chassis (components are an entirely separate matter, one I think will be much more in line with weapon and armorsmith prices), and it's not so much an argument as a set of predictions, so don't think I'm out to convert anyone. It's just what I see happening.
Personally, I sell chassis for 4 cpu, with master-level ships a bit over 5 cpu because they're rarer and something of a hassle to put together. This is about in the middle of the current prices on my server, and my feeling is it's a reasonable price to pay and a reasonable profit for myself. I don't think it's terribly wise to drop below that for basically all the reasons already argued, but I also don't think we're ever going to see the end of 3 and even a few 2 cpu chassis vendors for the following reasons:
1) Resource quality doesn't matter in the bulk of chassis sales. Some people will pay a premium for an X-Wing with 101.5K mass instead of 100, but most of our sales are going to be for chassis made from pedestrian resources you can (or could, a month ago) pick up at dozens of resource vendors across the galaxy.
2) Some people will mine most or all of their own resources, and given a generous mining cost of .5 cpu, turning that into chassis that sell for 2-3 cpu is, in one sense, a huge mark-up, and one that a significant minority of shipwrights seem content to sell at.
3) For those of us who buy most of our chassis resources, prices are dropping back to "normal" levels. A week or two ago it was impossible to find steel for less than 5-8 cpu on Starsider, but these days I can, at any given time, probably find 500K at 2 cpu without a significant problem. Every other chassis resource is now available (if you know where to look) in the same range. So even buying at these prices, you could sell at 3-4 cpu and realize an all right profit.
4) The argument that selling chassis for the same or less than you could sell the resources is logical in a profit-centered sense, but clearly a fair amount of shipwrights aren't in it purely for the money. If they're having more fun selling ships than they are loading 100K stacks of ore into their vendors, it also makes sense for them to crank out the Kimogilas for 60K each. Given that they're not selling their chassis for less than they are actually paying for their resources, there's no reason to expect them to go out of business due to bankruptcy. Maybe because the fun wears out, or they're tired of the snail's-pace growth of their bank account, but not because they're running out of credits.
5) A pistol that takes 100 resources, for example, may sell for 6K, but you'd have to sell 50 of them to see the same amount of credits enter your bank account as you would selling a YT-1300 for 300K. Granted, your net profit on that YT is going to be a lot less than on the weaponsmith's 50 FWG5s, but there is something to be said for making a modest profit and only having to deal with 1/50 the physical items someone making a huge profit would have to deal with.
6) This hefty pricetag on a single object, along with the knowledge that even a master-level ship is going to see decay and eventually need replacing, is going to make the buyers a lot more likely to shop around for bargains. For many people, the psychological impact of cutting even 100-200K off a chassis, even one that may last them weeks (depending on their playstyle), is going to be big. Enough, I think, that a well-stocked, cheaply-priced chassis vendor is going to eventually build up a good word of mouth trade.
7) Decay was partially covered above, but it deserves its own note. Starships aren't permanent. The more pilots have to replace them, the less they're going to feel they can afford to spend. I can't think of a way to quantify this, but it'll have an effect.
8) Any level of shipwright can produce up to tier 4 ships with little difference in quality from those built by a master. This makes dabbling possible, and anyone training up shipwright will actually be able to make money off the things that make them XP, things that in almost any other profession would be deleted or made in practice mode, leading to a deeper market of available chassis--something that will be really appealing to anyone replacing their ship on a regular basis. Again, a lot of players will pay 300K for that 100K mass X-Wing, but plenty more will go for the 150K one with 98K mass.
I think these reasons would heavily influence chassis prices in the current economy, and with the upcoming solo group nerf, I think it's virtually impossible that low-end prices for chassis will reach the levels most of us would like to see them at. I don't think I can predict how the changes to solo groups will affect the economy, but even if it weren't on the horizin, I'd guess chassis prices would stabilize between 3-6 cpu across all vendors. Those who sell for less, I don't think there will be enough of them or that they'll be able to produce enough ships to heavily sway the market; those who sell for more, I think they'll simply be ignored for the vast amount of shipwrights who end up selling right around the 4 or possibly 5 cpu mark--which, if you had to nail me down, is where I think prices will average out. There will be a higher-priced niche market for higher than average mass ships, and a few players with enough cash that they won't bother shopping around, but they'll never be more than a minority.
Just predictions here, but I think people selling for 6+ cpu are ignoring some of these factors, so I thought I'd toss them into the debate. There are ways to sell chassis for 2-3 cpu and do fine, and to expect that nobody among all the shipwrights out there is doing so now and will continue to do so for a long time is to expect too little from the vast variety of players out there. That variety and innovation is the real core of capitalism, and for the shipwright profession--though I may not like it--it's not going to go away.
Personally, I sell chassis for 4 cpu, with master-level ships a bit over 5 cpu because they're rarer and something of a hassle to put together. This is about in the middle of the current prices on my server, and my feeling is it's a reasonable price to pay and a reasonable profit for myself. I don't think it's terribly wise to drop below that for basically all the reasons already argued, but I also don't think we're ever going to see the end of 3 and even a few 2 cpu chassis vendors for the following reasons:
1) Resource quality doesn't matter in the bulk of chassis sales. Some people will pay a premium for an X-Wing with 101.5K mass instead of 100, but most of our sales are going to be for chassis made from pedestrian resources you can (or could, a month ago) pick up at dozens of resource vendors across the galaxy.
2) Some people will mine most or all of their own resources, and given a generous mining cost of .5 cpu, turning that into chassis that sell for 2-3 cpu is, in one sense, a huge mark-up, and one that a significant minority of shipwrights seem content to sell at.
3) For those of us who buy most of our chassis resources, prices are dropping back to "normal" levels. A week or two ago it was impossible to find steel for less than 5-8 cpu on Starsider, but these days I can, at any given time, probably find 500K at 2 cpu without a significant problem. Every other chassis resource is now available (if you know where to look) in the same range. So even buying at these prices, you could sell at 3-4 cpu and realize an all right profit.
4) The argument that selling chassis for the same or less than you could sell the resources is logical in a profit-centered sense, but clearly a fair amount of shipwrights aren't in it purely for the money. If they're having more fun selling ships than they are loading 100K stacks of ore into their vendors, it also makes sense for them to crank out the Kimogilas for 60K each. Given that they're not selling their chassis for less than they are actually paying for their resources, there's no reason to expect them to go out of business due to bankruptcy. Maybe because the fun wears out, or they're tired of the snail's-pace growth of their bank account, but not because they're running out of credits.
5) A pistol that takes 100 resources, for example, may sell for 6K, but you'd have to sell 50 of them to see the same amount of credits enter your bank account as you would selling a YT-1300 for 300K. Granted, your net profit on that YT is going to be a lot less than on the weaponsmith's 50 FWG5s, but there is something to be said for making a modest profit and only having to deal with 1/50 the physical items someone making a huge profit would have to deal with.
6) This hefty pricetag on a single object, along with the knowledge that even a master-level ship is going to see decay and eventually need replacing, is going to make the buyers a lot more likely to shop around for bargains. For many people, the psychological impact of cutting even 100-200K off a chassis, even one that may last them weeks (depending on their playstyle), is going to be big. Enough, I think, that a well-stocked, cheaply-priced chassis vendor is going to eventually build up a good word of mouth trade.
7) Decay was partially covered above, but it deserves its own note. Starships aren't permanent. The more pilots have to replace them, the less they're going to feel they can afford to spend. I can't think of a way to quantify this, but it'll have an effect.
8) Any level of shipwright can produce up to tier 4 ships with little difference in quality from those built by a master. This makes dabbling possible, and anyone training up shipwright will actually be able to make money off the things that make them XP, things that in almost any other profession would be deleted or made in practice mode, leading to a deeper market of available chassis--something that will be really appealing to anyone replacing their ship on a regular basis. Again, a lot of players will pay 300K for that 100K mass X-Wing, but plenty more will go for the 150K one with 98K mass.
I think these reasons would heavily influence chassis prices in the current economy, and with the upcoming solo group nerf, I think it's virtually impossible that low-end prices for chassis will reach the levels most of us would like to see them at. I don't think I can predict how the changes to solo groups will affect the economy, but even if it weren't on the horizin, I'd guess chassis prices would stabilize between 3-6 cpu across all vendors. Those who sell for less, I don't think there will be enough of them or that they'll be able to produce enough ships to heavily sway the market; those who sell for more, I think they'll simply be ignored for the vast amount of shipwrights who end up selling right around the 4 or possibly 5 cpu mark--which, if you had to nail me down, is where I think prices will average out. There will be a higher-priced niche market for higher than average mass ships, and a few players with enough cash that they won't bother shopping around, but they'll never be more than a minority.
Just predictions here, but I think people selling for 6+ cpu are ignoring some of these factors, so I thought I'd toss them into the debate. There are ways to sell chassis for 2-3 cpu and do fine, and to expect that nobody among all the shipwrights out there is doing so now and will continue to do so for a long time is to expect too little from the vast variety of players out there. That variety and innovation is the real core of capitalism, and for the shipwright profession--though I may not like it--it's not going to go away.
DarthLithic
Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:10 am
#46
BoogerSlinger wrote:
DarthLithic wrote:
I know I'm not going anywhere, so I hope that you guys that are gouging people don't get too upset. (and don't tell me that you're not, when I can sell a Kimo for 30k and not take a loss, and you're selling yours for 200k)
Someone is in for a rude awakening
Patients is the key
just FYI, I'm 1 schematic away from having the ENTIRE Firespray Schematic. now since I've RE'd thousands of parts, then I have no problem with selling thoe for alot of $ (I'm thinking between 15 and 20 million) That'll be plenty of $ to stay in business. Plus I mine my own resources. I honestly believe that MOST SWs are selling their ships for what they believe are good prices, but I've seen the economy in this game do crazy things over the last year, and Honestly, I'm kinda sick of seeing things cost so much. whether it be armor, weapons, buffs, or anything else. As a long time consumer, I just want to something for ALL players on my server, and if that includes selling ships for a low profit, then so be it. I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
Rolassk
Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:40 am
#47
It seems the low ballers are also concentrating on lower Tier Chassis'.
I price my Tier I chassis at 3CPU (Iuse400-600 quality resources), Tier II-IV @ 4CPU (use 600+ quality), and Master for 5CPU (use the best I have).
Sometimes when a customer asks me for a Tier I or II ships, I get a "that's way overpriced" response. As for Tier III and up, customers don't complain about the prices. Ironically theoverpriced complainersusually send me a tell an hour later asking "can you make me one for this much cheaper?". I politely respond that I will not go cheaper then my set price as they are based on the quality of materials used and my costs. Plus I know at this point the customer was unsuccessful at finding a chassis for cheaper. They usually reluctantly buy the chassis from me at the set price.
There will always be a lowballer alternative in the crafting professions. As long as you have friendly-customer service it shouldn't have an effect (architect and DE I believe are different from this, because there is no real decay) on you or your business.
*Kettemoor
Wyelkoon
Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:44 am
#48
Well, I would just like to point out My example on Ahazi, and how I am doing just fine...
Me and My Partner, we lowball everything. We have sold everything at 6-7cpu and under , and we have a lot of package deals for tiered ships (45K for a fully loaded tier one, 90k for a tier 2 chassis, 180k for a tier 3, etc...) . While you say we will go bust, while you say we won't last, we had no stockpile of resources beforehand. Been buying and harvesting only since JTL came out, and we seem to be doing fine. 8 million in profits, and tons of customers. And we still chug out ships everyday
So despite you say we will go bust, we wont. We have been pushing strong since JTL came out with ZERO advanced preparation, and were doing fine. Maybe you are getting 12 million from pathetic saps who dont know how to shop and just want a ship, but we got 8 million profit, enough to last us for quite a while. In the end, perhaps its YOU who need to rethink.
Biggens77
Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:38 pm
#49
im enjoying shipwright alot. i charge 10 cpu for chassis, which i do not keep my chassis vendor stocked. if someone wants it they have to ask me and i only make them when im sure somoene will buy it. prices per part are:
mark 2 - 30k
mark 3 - 75k
mark 4 - 125k
mark 5 - 225k
mark 2 proton missle pack 11uses- 15k
mark 3packs 14 uses - 30k
im sure people can find stuff cheaper on my server but let me just tell you im not hurting 1 bit. im happy with the profit im making on parts, although it is nothing like being a weaponsmith 
you know i never realized how much i made on weapons till i started doin shipwright lol.
you know i never realized how much i made on weapons till i started doin shipwright lol.
DarthLithic
Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:28 pm
#50
For those of you who have forgotten, THIS IS A GAME, and the credits in the game do not buy you real stuff!!! Just thought I remind you guys. If getting 100 million credits in a game is your idea of a good time, knock yourself out.
GalacticHustler
Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:45 pm
#51
my only question on lowballing is why? Its not like we all can't sell everything we make anyway. I just made about 200 components that will be priced around 20cpu and they will all sell in one day, maybe two. What benefit would it be to sell them at 10-15cpu the only person I'd be lowballing would be myself. I can understand using a lower price to attact customers but we all have more customers than we can handle so why devalue your time?
Tanks
Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:08 am
#52
...but we got 8 million profit, enough to last us for quite a while. In the end, perhaps its YOU who need to rethink.
Well, 6-7 CPU is pretty low, but I am glad you are happy with your "8million" profit.
Let me tell you how far that 8 million takes you.
The other day, I ran into this person that was selling 996OQ, 980PE radioactive. She had 600K at 5CPU. That is 3 million there. While wondering around I saw this resource vendor that had really nice copper amazingly at 2CPU. Another million there. I needed power for my harvesters, found some at 1.5CPU. a million and a half.
That is 5.5 million right off the bat. Then on top of that add harvester maintanance, etc., etc.
What are you going to do when a good resource becomes available for sale at 5-6 CPU? I'd guess you'd have to pass on it. Heck, I have already seen the shipwright radioactive on a resource vendor at 5CPU. Most of the resources I am using, I could sell to Weaponsmiths at 10+CPU. On components, resources do make a big difference. On Chassis not as much, but the extra 2-3K mass I could get on a TIE-Interceptor could make the differenceof being able to put one more higher level components in it. The extra hitpoints mean one or two more deaths before the customer would have to replace his.
People will pay premium for a great weapon over a cheap average one. It applies to Shipwrights as well.