Shipwright Archive

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TrueBoom wrote:

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EdOWar wrote:

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TrueBoom wrote:

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EdOWar wrote:

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TrueBoom wrote:

God these endless arguements grow old. If you don't want to be a slobbering hypocrite, then take awat factory support FROM ALL CRAFTING PROFS. Otherwise GIVE US FACTORY SUPPORT. Pretty simple to me.

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It has nothing to do with being a 'hypocrite'. Other crafting professions need factory support because they all require sub-components...in many cases multiple sub-components. Shipwright has no required sub-components (only optional ones...and then only one optional sub-component). Factory support would lead to drastic over-production. You remember the laws of supply and demand, don't you? Too much supply...not enough demand...does what to prices?

If you want to kill Shipwright, then by all means give us full factory support. If you want to keep this profession viable, keep it as it is.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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There is absolutely no basis in fact or logic to support your assertion. None what so ever. If EVERY OTHER CRAFTING profession can remain viable using factories, there is no reason to believe that we can not as well.

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A T-21 requires 10 blaster power-handlers and a blaster rifle barrel, and can take an optional weapon stock. Because I can only do a run of 1,000 power-handlers that means that my final run of T-21 rifles will only be 99 (10 power-handlers used up to make the schematic, leaving 990 for 99 T-21 rifles). I can't just plop in a bunch of resources and churn out 1,000 T-21 rifles. And if I could, I guarantee you that T-21 rifles wouldn't go for 30-70K each...more like 5K to 10K each. True, I can get a bunch of factories and just rotate them, constantly churning out T-21 rifles. If I had enough factories I could make 99 (or more)T-21's every day. But those factories would still be spending the bulk of their time producing sub-components that have no instrinsic value to the end user. The use of required sub-components is an inherent restriction in the production levels of T-21 rifles (and by extension, all other similarly complex items).

Now lets take a fusion reactor. It has only one (optional)sub-component. If we had full factory support, and if we were so inclined, we could run the sub-components, then plop in the resources and run 1,000 fusion reactors. Granted, that's a lot of resources. And granted, you don't have to do a run of 1,000 at once. Maybe you only do a run of 100 fusion reactors. But every other shipwright on the server is also doinga run of 100 reactors...or maybe even more. Production goes up dramatically over what can be done through hand-crafting alone.

Do you honestly think any server can sustain that level of demand for any shipwright component (other than perhaps armor)? Especially considering how little most of our stuff decays. Shipwright vendors will be flooded with product, and there won't be enough customers to buy it all. It's unsustainable. So what do you think the result would be? It's basic economics...too much supply, insufficientdemand, prices drop.

You might say 'So what?' Prices will eventually stablize after some shipwrights drop the profession. But at what level do they stablize? After all the carnage, and the damage is done, do you think prices would stablize at 20 cpu? Or maybe at 4 cpu, turning shipwright into a permanently gimped profession.

Compared to crafting a rocket launcher, a T-21, a suit of comp armor, a droid, a buff pack or Vasarian brandy, shipwright crafting is easy...simplistic even. It's almoston the same level as crafting a swoop, without the same rate of decay...and we know how much swoops sell for, don't we.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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You can guerantee nothing of the sort because there is absolutely no way to establish empirically what you state. It's all supposition. In fact I could argue, regarding your T-21 example, exactly the opposite. Prices are based more on competition, and a sliding sense of Inflation, than anything else. Right now we hear constant complaints from customers because they have to hunt far and wide for specific parts and ships. And frankly I think you all who are refusing to allow factory support, and SOE for an abysmal system, are directly to blame for that dissatisfaction. I can tell you that not once, when I explain to customers via email and tells, why they have to continue looking around for parts, has anyone supported SOEs lack of factory support for Shipwrights. Not a single one. Wonder why? The customer, and remember we're here to support customers, wants what they need. There is no real basis in this game for price supports, so it's all made up anyway. Whether we have factory support or not isn't going to change that because the game can not mimic real world limits such as control of resources, distrobution, and other business factors.

No real arguement can be made to explain, or support why parts go for an arbitrary amount. They simply do because as the profession has matured, we've all paid attention to what others are charging. THAT is what drives the pricing in the game. Not some hokey notion that factories will or will not stifle competion and lower pricing.

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There is plenty of empirical evidence to support my argument. Take the example of swoops I provided...which you conveniently ignored. Swoops are easy to make, because they have no sub-components. Slap some steel and copper together and *poof* you have the fastest ground vehicle in the game. Make a schematic and they can be churned out by the hundreds while you sleep. People sell these things by the crate, for as low as 20K each...because they're so easy to produce. The resources used to make swoops can be sold for more than the swoops themselves. If swoops could only be hand made, do you honestly think people would only sell them for 20K each?

As for the price of T-21s, their prices have actually been dropping, even as their quality increases. In fact, all standard production weapons have been getting cheaper while the quality improves, despite the inflation caused by solo-grouping. Most of that solo-group cash was going towards purchasing specially made enhanced weapons (Acklay hammers, Krayt weapons, etc.). If such a weapon had a good damage slice, people would pay millions for it. That's where the inflation in the weapon market has been.

Maybe all these customers you speak of would be able to find a stocked vendor if the shipwrights that owned those vendors charged more, instead of burning through their best resources for 5 cpu or less. Maybe those shipwrights wouldn't get burnt out hand crafting hundreds of items a day if they charged a littlemore, instead of trying to supply the entire server themselves. All full factory support would mean is that all those empty vendors you speak of would be chock full ofnearly similar product.

Your entire argument supports my position. You want full factory support so you canmake more product. But if full factory support is implemented, you won't be the only shipwright producing more product. Every shipwright will be producing more, and it will be easy to do because shipwright components only have a single sub-component. Right now hand crafting is burning the low-ballers out of the business. Full factory support would keep them in business longer.

And no, pricing is not arbitrary. Pricing is based on a number of factors: resource quality and rarity, demand, supply and item complexity (among other factors, such as players who feel sell cheap because it makes them feel good). For example, most WS don't bother making rocket launchers because they are a huge pain in the neck to make. They are probably the most complex crafting item in the entire game. But if making a rocket launcher were as easy as makinga pack of anti-matter proton missiles, every WS would have them stocked, and they'd be selling cheap. This isn't supposition. This is fact,from 12 months experience as a WS, and from hearingdozens of other WS say the same thing, both on my server and in the WS forums.

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EdOWar wrote:

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TrueBoom wrote:

God these endless arguements grow old. If you don't want to be a slobbering hypocrite, then take awat factory support FROM ALL CRAFTING PROFS. Otherwise GIVE US FACTORY SUPPORT. Pretty simple to me.

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It has nothing to do with being a 'hypocrite'. Other crafting professions need factory support because they all require sub-components...in many cases multiple sub-components. Shipwright has no required sub-components (only optional ones...and then only one optional sub-component). Factory support would lead to drastic over-production. You remember the laws of supply and demand, don't you? Too much supply...not enough demand...does what to prices?

If you want to kill Shipwright, then by all means give us full factory support. If you want to keep this profession viable, keep it as it is.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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Arryth wrote:

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Rhysen wrote:

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TrueBoom wrote:

God these endless arguements grow old. If you don't want to be a slobbering hypocrite, then take awat factory support FROM ALL CRAFTING PROFS. Otherwise GIVE US FACTORY SUPPORT. Pretty simple to me.

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If that were the petition, remove factory support from all professions and only allowing subcomponent creation in factories... Where would I sign?

I think it's completely wrong that a weaponsmith can spend 5 minutes of their time loading schematics/resources into a factory and 55 minutes shooting stuff as a Rifleman and turn out as much/more weapons than a Weaponsmith that spends 55 minutes crafting weapons and 5 minutes shooting stuff as a Rifleman.

The time the 2nd person doesn't invest in Rifleman will be directly reflected in his progression up the Rifleman tree, directly reflected in the amount of rewards he receives using his rifle (loot/mission payouts). Why shouldn't the reverse be true, that the time not invested in crafting shipwright (or weaponsmith/armorsmith/chef/ect) products be reflected in the amount of products a person can offer the market?

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Its starwars, not midevil crafts men... Factories are where most EVERY thing is made. Makeing things by hand just does not make sence in a sci-fi futuristic setting.

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ROFL....neither does storing an AT-ST,3 swooper, 3 spacecraft, and 5 droids in your databad (a.k.a backpocket) ...not too much makes any kind of sense in this game.

/just say NO to additional Factory Support!!!!

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Arryth wrote:
Increased amount of product and lower prices is good for the jtls community. Full factory support is a good thing.

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By JTLS community, you mean pilots. I'm sure pilots are very happy to buy the best stuff possible for the lowest price possible...who wouldn't? But shipwrights would like a decent return on their efforts, too. That would be a lot harder with full factory support.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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Jagged-F3l wrote:

/disagree

At the very least I wanted limited factory support for the purpose of producing more than one component that turns out absolutely amazing. I don't want to make 1000 of these (who has those kinds of resources?), more like between 10 and 25 (leaning more toward the 10).

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/sigh For what SWG could have been.
/weep for what it is today

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EdOWar wrote:

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Arryth wrote:
Increased amount of product and lower prices is good for the jtls community. Full factory support is a good thing.

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By JTLS community, you mean pilots. I'm sure pilots are very happy to buy the best stuff possible for the lowest price possible...who wouldn't? But shipwrights would like a decent return on their efforts, too. That would be a lot harder with full factory support.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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Arryth wrote:

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EdOWar wrote:

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Arryth wrote:
Increased amount of product and lower prices is good for the jtls community. Full factory support is a good thing.

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By JTLS community, you mean pilots. I'm sure pilots are very happy to buy the best stuff possible for the lowest price possible...who wouldn't? But shipwrights would like a decent return on their efforts, too. That would be a lot harder with full factory support.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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I mean the majority of people playing jtls.. Sony should please the majority.. Factory support helps the majority.. there for its good for the whole.. Those who cant compete will drop out.. Those who actually love the profession will find a way to stay and craft. Those are the shipwrights I want to find and buy from.. not the profiteers.

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LMAO. "The majority of people playing jtls..." Yeah, you mean PILOTS!!! Who the hell is playing JTL if they aren't pilots?

So, to please everyone else, shipwrights should get crumbs, while everyone else reaps the rewards of their hard work. To please everyone else, only the shipwrights willing to work for pennies, who derive so-called 'psychic' income from being a shipwright, should be the only people who get to make ships. Pilots get to be rich...shipwrights get the shaft.

On a side note, I think the majority of players wanted to keep solo-grouping. Maybe Sony should of left it in to 'please the majority'.

Sorry, but this is a free market economy, not a socialist or communist economy. There are all kinds of shipwrights, some who do it for the pleasure of making ships, others who do it because they want a tangible reward for their efforts. Both kinds of shipwrights can be good at their craft. Just because someone does it for the love of the job, doesn't mean they do it well. As for the 'profiteers', there are plenty of shipwrights in the galaxy and if you don't like one's prices, there's sure to be someone cheaper. It's called shopping around.

We're all greedy profiteers to one degree or another. Unless you're naked, hungryand have no possessions at all, you're greedy. Greed is a survival mechanism, and capitalism harnesses greed for the greatest benefit of all (of course, excessive greed can be bad...but so can excessive charity).

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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EdOWar wrote:

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Arryth wrote:

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EdOWar wrote:

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Arryth wrote:
Increased amount of product and lower prices is good for the jtls community. Full factory support is a good thing.

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By JTLS community, you mean pilots. I'm sure pilots are very happy to buy the best stuff possible for the lowest price possible...who wouldn't? But shipwrights would like a decent return on their efforts, too. That would be a lot harder with full factory support.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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I mean the majority of people playing jtls.. Sony should please the majority.. Factory support helps the majority.. there for its good for the whole.. Those who cant compete will drop out.. Those who actually love the profession will find a way to stay and craft. Those are the shipwrights I want to find and buy from.. not the profiteers.

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LMAO. "The majority of people playing jtls..." Yeah, you mean PILOTS!!! Who the hell is playing JTL if they aren't pilots?

So, to please everyone else, shipwrights should get crumbs, while everyone else reaps the rewards of their hard work. To please everyone else, only the shipwrights willing to work for pennies, who derive so-called 'psychic' income from being a shipwright, should be the only people who get to make ships. Pilots get to be rich...shipwrights get the shaft.

On a side note, I think the majority of players wanted to keep solo-grouping. Maybe Sony should of left it in to 'please the majority'.

Sorry, but this is a free market economy, not a socialist or communist economy. There are all kinds of shipwrights, some who do it for the pleasure of making ships, others who do it because they want a tangible reward for their efforts. Both kinds of shipwrights can be good at their craft. Just because someone does it for the love of the job, doesn't mean they do it well. As for the 'profiteers', there are plenty of shipwrights in the galaxy and if you don't like one's prices, there's sure to be someone cheaper. It's called shopping around.

We're all greedy profiteers to one degree or another. Unless you're naked, hungry and have no possessions at all, you're greedy. Greed is a survival mechanism, and capitalism harnesses greed for the greatest benefit of all (of course, excessive greed can be bad...but so can excessive charity).

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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