Shipwright Archive
Thread: Petition: No Additional Factory Support!!! ...
Little-Green-Guy wrote:O.K. all....I'm here to be the voice of reason...for all you STILL whining about needing'additional factory' support.Let's draw a scenario......Lets /assume:Player X has the following....title: Master ShipwrightAccess to: 30 FactoriesCredits in the Bank: 850+ millionResources stored: 140+ million units/end assumption.You know what that player is going to do the second full factory support is added?Let me tell you...he or she is going to make so many components and price those components so far under market value...his competitors nose's are going to bleed.thus...forcing so many ofus (without the means to compete) to quit.Believe me..there is 1 or 5 of these people on each server capable of doing this...we see it all the time w/the other proffesions..So, I urge you guys...be content with this fact - The barrier to entry in SW is not really that difficult (in comparision w/other proffessions).....keep things as they are ....our you will wish you had...thank you kindly!
i agree
TrueBoom wrote:
There is absolutely no basis in fact or logic to support your assertion. None what so ever. If EVERY OTHER CRAFTING profession can remain viable using factories, there is no reason to believe that we can not as well.
EdOWar wrote:
TrueBoom wrote:
God these endless arguements grow old. If you don't want to be a slobbering hypocrite, then take awat factory support FROM ALL CRAFTING PROFS. Otherwise GIVE US FACTORY SUPPORT. Pretty simple to me.
It has nothing to do with being a 'hypocrite'. Other crafting professions need factory support because they all require sub-components...in many cases multiple sub-components. Shipwright has no required sub-components (only optional ones...and then only one optional sub-component). Factory support would lead to drastic over-production. You remember the laws of supply and demand, don't you? Too much supply...not enough demand...does what to prices?
If you want to kill Shipwright, then by all means give us full factory support. If you want to keep this profession viable, keep it as it is.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
A T-21 requires 10 blaster power-handlers and a blaster rifle barrel, and can take an optional weapon stock. Because I can only do a run of 1,000 power-handlers that means that my final run of T-21 rifles will only be 99 (10 power-handlers used up to make the schematic, leaving 990 for 99 T-21 rifles). I can't just plop in a bunch of resources and churn out 1,000 T-21 rifles. And if I could, I guarantee you that T-21 rifles wouldn't go for 30-70K each...more like 5K to 10K each. True, I can get a bunch of factories and just rotate them, constantly churning out T-21 rifles. If I had enough factories I could make 99 (or more)T-21's every day. But those factories would still be spending the bulk of their time producing sub-components that have no instrinsic value to the end user. The use of required sub-components is an inherent restriction in the production levels of T-21 rifles (and by extension, all other similarly complex items).
Now lets take a fusion reactor. It has only one (optional)sub-component. If we had full factory support, and if we were so inclined, we could run the sub-components, then plop in the resources and run 1,000 fusion reactors. Granted, that's a lot of resources. And granted, you don't have to do a run of 1,000 at once. Maybe you only do a run of 100 fusion reactors. But every other shipwright on the server is also doinga run of 100 reactors...or maybe even more. Production goes up dramatically over what can be done through hand-crafting alone.
Do you honestly think any server can sustain that level of demand for any shipwright component (other than perhaps armor)? Especially considering how little most of our stuff decays. Shipwright vendors will be flooded with product, and there won't be enough customers to buy it all. It's unsustainable. So what do you think the result would be? It's basic economics...too much supply, insufficientdemand, prices drop.
You might say 'So what?' Prices will eventually stablize after some shipwrights drop the profession. But at what level do they stablize? After all the carnage, and the damage is done, do you think prices would stablize at 20 cpu? Or maybe at 4 cpu, turning shipwright into a permanently gimped profession.
Compared to crafting a rocket launcher, a T-21, a suit of comp armor, a droid, a buff pack or Vasarian brandy, shipwright crafting is easy...simplistic even. It's almoston the same level as crafting a swoop, without the same rate of decay...and we know how much swoops sell for, don't we.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
EdOWar wrote:
TrueBoom wrote:
There is absolutely no basis in fact or logic to support your assertion. None what so ever. If EVERY OTHER CRAFTING profession can remain viable using factories, there is no reason to believe that we can not as well.
EdOWar wrote:
TrueBoom wrote:
God these endless arguements grow old. If you don't want to be a slobbering hypocrite, then take awat factory support FROM ALL CRAFTING PROFS. Otherwise GIVE US FACTORY SUPPORT. Pretty simple to me.
It has nothing to do with being a 'hypocrite'. Other crafting professions need factory support because they all require sub-components...in many cases multiple sub-components. Shipwright has no required sub-components (only optional ones...and then only one optional sub-component). Factory support would lead to drastic over-production. You remember the laws of supply and demand, don't you? Too much supply...not enough demand...does what to prices?
If you want to kill Shipwright, then by all means give us full factory support. If you want to keep this profession viable, keep it as it is.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
A T-21 requires 10 blaster power-handlers and a blaster rifle barrel, and can take an optional weapon stock. Because I can only do a run of 1,000 power-handlers that means that my final run of T-21 rifles will only be 99 (10 power-handlers used up to make the schematic, leaving 990 for 99 T-21 rifles). I can't just plop in a bunch of resources and churn out 1,000 T-21 rifles. And if I could, I guarantee you that T-21 rifles wouldn't go for 30-70K each...more like 5K to 10K each. True, I can get a bunch of factories and just rotate them, constantly churning out T-21 rifles. If I had enough factories I could make 99 (or more)T-21's every day. But those factories would still be spending the bulk of their time producing sub-components that have no instrinsic value to the end user. The use of required sub-components is an inherent restriction in the production levels of T-21 rifles (and by extension, all other similarly complex items).
Now lets take a fusion reactor. It has only one (optional)sub-component. If we had full factory support, and if we were so inclined, we could run the sub-components, then plop in the resources and run 1,000 fusion reactors. Granted, that's a lot of resources. And granted, you don't have to do a run of 1,000 at once. Maybe you only do a run of 100 fusion reactors. But every other shipwright on the server is also doinga run of 100 reactors...or maybe even more. Production goes up dramatically over what can be done through hand-crafting alone.
Do you honestly think any server can sustain that level of demand for any shipwright component (other than perhaps armor)? Especially considering how little most of our stuff decays. Shipwright vendors will be flooded with product, and there won't be enough customers to buy it all. It's unsustainable. So what do you think the result would be? It's basic economics...too much supply, insufficientdemand, prices drop.
You might say 'So what?' Prices will eventually stablize after some shipwrights drop the profession. But at what level do they stablize? After all the carnage, and the damage is done, do you think prices would stablize at 20 cpu? Or maybe at 4 cpu, turning shipwright into a permanently gimped profession.
Compared to crafting a rocket launcher, a T-21, a suit of comp armor, a droid, a buff pack or Vasarian brandy, shipwright crafting is easy...simplistic even. It's almoston the same level as crafting a swoop, without the same rate of decay...and we know how much swoops sell for, don't we.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
You can guerantee nothing of the sort because there is absolutely no way to establish empirically what you state. It's all supposition. In fact I could argue, regarding your T-21 example, exactly the opposite. Prices are based more on competition, and a sliding sense of Inflation, than anything else. Right now we hear constant complaints from customers because they have to hunt far and wide for specific parts and ships. And frankly I think you all who are refusing to allow factory support, and SOE for an abysmal system, are directly to blame for that dissatisfaction. I can tell you that not once, when I explain to customers via email and tells, why they have to continue looking around for parts, has anyone supported SOEs lack of factory support for Shipwrights. Not a single one. Wonder why? The customer, and remember we're here to support customers, wants what they need. There is no real basis in this game for price supports, so it's all made up anyway. Whether we have factory support or not isn't going to change that because the game can not mimic real world limits such as control of resources, distrobution, and other business factors.
No real arguement can be made to explain, or support why parts go for an arbitrary amount. They simply do because as the profession has matured, we've all paid attention to what others are charging. THAT is what drives the pricing in the game. Not some hokey notion that factories will or will not stifle competion and lower pricing.
TrueBoom wrote:
God these endless arguements grow old. If you don't want to be a slobbering hypocrite, then take awat factory support FROM ALL CRAFTING PROFS. Otherwise GIVE US FACTORY SUPPORT. Pretty simple to me.
It is an endless argument because the devs have given us little to no feedback. Where are the devs? Why aren't they commenting. They don't even give anything to our correspondant that he can share with us.
Brilyn wrote:
< I think it's completely wrong that aweaponsmith can spend 5 minutes of their time loading schematics/resources into a factory and 55 minutes shooting stuff as a Rifleman and turn out as much/more weapons than a Weaponsmith that spends 55 minutes crafting weapons and 5 minutes shooting stuff as a Rifleman. >
This is actually false.
You can handcraft more stuff in 55minutes than you can produce in a factory.
Why?
It takes a crafting tool (complexity times 2) seconds to produce an item.
It takes a Factory (complexity times 8) seconds to produce an item.
Thus, assuming enough crafting tools to ensure continuous crafting (3-4 usually does the trick) you can produce 4 times as many items by hand as you can in a factory.
Your logic is flawed.
Yup. And then you log off for the evening doing things likeeating dinner, cleaning your house, bathing and being a human being.
But the factory keeps running for 23 more hours, creating more items than you could have crafted while you were logged in. Creating a volume of a higher quality than you can create handcrafting, as the experimenting has already been done and it's now copying the results of that session without error.
Like I said, if you spend 5 minutes loading a factory and 55 minutes taming creatures, you're a Creature Handler. And if you attempt to actually spend your time creating items yourself in your crafting profession, you'll waste resources and be outperformed by someone being a Creature Handler. Except in Shipwright.
Brilyn wrote:
< But the factory keeps running for 23 more hours, creating more items than you could have crafted while you were logged in. >
Yet the majority of proponents for increased factory support claim they want 'limited' factory support. Like only 10-20 items in a run, or some such.
Which makes your point irrelevant, in the context of SW.
Because they're not stupid. And neither am I. 10-20 items per from a single factory day would provide more than enough equipment to keep the vendor fully stocked with that item.
You're a Master Weaponsmith, according to your signature. How many unenhanced T21 rifles do you sell per day? Would 10-20 be enough to cover the demand your shop has? Let's be realistic here. Only armor and missiles would carry anywhere near that type of regular demand (assuming a good effort on the Shipwright's part to build that type of business). The rest would become surplus, building on vendors just like the surplus of weapons/armor/structures/chef foods/droids from other crafting professions. What prevents the market from becoming greatly oversaturated is people not wanting to invest the time to make the items. The surplus stocks are burning out and those who invest the time in doing shipwright activities, in actually being a Shipwright, are gaining the sales from the neglected vendors.
And those people with those neglected vendors most definately want SOE to hand them a crutch to help them ignore being a Shipwright during their playtime, letting factories do the work for them so they can do anything but be a Shipwright. Like I said, if the petition were to make it so all crafting professsions could only create subcomponents in factories
I'd sign that petition without a thought.
Pro-factory reasons
1) Less time crafting ("Certainly sir, now I do not have to grind I have more time to spend helping you")
2) Less critical failures
3) Uniform standards
4) Slight increase from all SW baseline stats
4) Resource costs would go up (good for miners)
5) Unit sale price would drop (good for pilots)
Con-factroy reasons
1) Less time crafting ("It's on my vendor, leave me alone")
2) Uniform standards
3) Resource costs would go up (bad for all crafters)
4) Unit sale price would drop (bad for shipwrights)
5) Even more rubbish for sale, standards might go up, but the rubbish will still stink
Even more rubbish for sale seals the argument for me