Shipwright Archive
Thread: Factory Support Is Needed For Shipwright.
*Kettemoor
Mariki wrote:
Oh, and BTW, the only reason not having factory support worked in beta is because everyone was free to dabble in SW and serve their own needs but here on live other masters are hessitant to drop their skills for this. There are no blue frogs... There is no unlimited resources on hand...
I agree 100% and avery good point. The shipwright market was never tested in beta. Almost everyone including myself were really testing the space game, missions, and the ships. I mastered shipwright in beta so I could make ships for myself. I didnt need a factory then cause I didnt have a market to sell to.
JulianSpeed wrote:
LOL!!! I thought you could use factories to produce Starship components. Then I come to this thread.
Rolassk wrote:
To the ones exclaiming, why don't we have full factory support like the other crafting professions? Could you please stop typing this lame argument and instead,tell all of us shipwrights why factory supportwouldbenefitALL shipwrights and not just YOURSELF (still haven't seen a good point made for that). Also take a step back and look at the schematics for Shipwright. None of them require sub-components or even more difficult, multiple sub-components with identical serial numbers. All you do is select an item, plug in the resources, next, experiment, next, name it, done. If you get 3 tools lined up in your function bar(and make some space in your inventory) you won't ever be waiting on a tool timer to finish. You'd be suprised how fast and easy it isto make this stuff if you put a little thought into the process.
It has got nothing at all to do with how fast or how slow you can craft by hand. It has got nothing to do with how much money shipwrights can make or if a single shipwright can dominate the market. Since you haven't looked beyond what you apparently thinkare the arguments for factories, allow me to make it easy for you and repost my arguments from another thread:
Crafting in SWG is designed around a degree of randomness. You make several attempts (aka. prototyping) at crafting an item until you get only "Great Succeses" during experimentation. This causes you to lose resources because your failed prototypes will generally be of no interest to customers due to their poor stats. This is why we can make schematics once we reach the required result. We can then put those schematics into factories to produce identical items without the risks of losing more resources. This is all well and balanced today. Experimentation, prototyping,lost resources, schematics, and factories all go hand in hand to make this balance.
Now SOE has suddenly chosen to remove an important part of this balance: schematics and factories. That means we are now left with experimentation, prototyping,and lost resources. Considering that shipwright is now the most resource intensive crafting profession, they have created a huge problem with the randomness in crafting. Every ship and ship component is now a prototype.
One of the practical implications of thisis that ships will cost a lot more. Shipwrights need to take lost resources into account a lot more than other crafting professions. It also means that the customers will not know what they are buying in advance. If they are rich, they will agree to pay for all the lost resources until the shipwright finally produces a good prototype. If they are not rich, they will have to settle for poor prototypes that might not even fit into their ship because of too high mass or too high energy usage.
There is just no way I can see this design decision as being good for the game. Adding more randomness than needed into a highly complicated crafting profession is a bad thing. Bad for the shipwrights and bad for the customers.
pervel wrote:
Rolassk wrote:
To the ones exclaiming, why don't we have full factory support like the other crafting professions? Could you please stop typing this lame argument and instead,tell all of us shipwrights why factory supportwouldbenefitALL shipwrights and not just YOURSELF (still haven't seen a good point made for that). Also take a step back and look at the schematics for Shipwright. None of them require sub-components or even more difficult, multiple sub-components with identical serial numbers. All you do is select an item, plug in the resources, next, experiment, next, name it, done. If you get 3 tools lined up in your function bar(and make some space in your inventory) you won't ever be waiting on a tool timer to finish. You'd be suprised how fast and easy it isto make this stuff if you put a little thought into the process.
It has got nothing at all to do with how fast or how slow you can craft by hand. It has got nothing to do with how much money shipwrights can make or if a single shipwright can dominate the market. Since you haven't looked beyond what you apparently thinkare the arguments for factories, allow me to make it easy for you and repost my arguments from another thread:
Have you read the posts supporting factories in this very thread?Most including the original's posters are based on, "I don'thave enough time make everything by hand, therefore I want full factory support". Things were easy and clear thanks, until of course you responded to my post withirrelevancy. I don't recall saying anything about money or shipwright market domination /scratchhead. What I have written is the general argument for factories in this thread (it's why I responded in THIS THREAD), I apologize for not knowing every single argument for pro-factory support in all the threads ever made on the issue.
Crafting in SWG is designed around a degree of randomness. You make several attempts (aka. prototyping) at crafting an item until you get only "Great Succeses" during experimentation. This causes you to lose resources because your failed prototypes will generally be of no interest to customers due to their poor stats. This is why we can make schematics once we reach the required result. We can then put those schematics into factories to produce identical items without the risks of losing more resources. This is all well and balanced today. Experimentation, prototyping,lost resources, schematics, and factories all go hand in hand to make this balance.
Now SOE has suddenly chosen to remove an important part of this balance: schematics and factories. That means we are now left with experimentation, prototyping,and lost resources. Considering that shipwright is now the most resource intensive crafting profession, they have created a huge problem with the randomness in crafting. Every ship and ship component is now a prototype.
You are right, it provides a challenge to ALL of us shipwrights. Instead of what has happened with the ground crafting professions. A few earlycrafters from each profession have stockpiles of uber resources, and thus can make the best schematicuntil the next best resources comes along (if by chance they do run out of an uber resource, they have made so many creditsby this point, that they can outbuy anyone else for the next best resource they need). Don't deny it, this has happened to every server. It's an equal playing field for all current master shipwrights, and all future master shipwrights to come. Not everything will always be crafted uber (great/amazing success) all the time. Then again, +44station, +14.97 tool, research player city, bespin port = a slim chance of gettingless thengreat successes anyway. Even in beta with a +10 station and +10 tool, I was getting 'great success' 90% of the time at Master SW.
One of the practical implications of thisis that ships will cost a lot more. Shipwrights need to take lost resources into account a lot more than other crafting professions. It also means that the customers will not know what they are buying in advance. If they are rich, they will agree to pay for all the lost resources until the shipwright finally produces a good prototype. If they are not rich, they will have to settle for poor prototypes that might not even fit into their ship because of too high mass or too high energy usage.
How does the customer not know whathe/sheis buying? If they have a capacitor with X stats on it and paid Y amount for it, and they go to another vendor and see a capacitor that has better Xat the same price, then they know it's a good purchase. And have you ever heard of just being honest with your customers? "Sorry my hitpoint experimentation didn't turn out so well, I'll charge you a reduced price". Whether players are rich or not is also irrelevant, since this is a twitch based system. An expert at flight sims in a Y-Wing could take out a poor flight sim in an A-Wing any day. Even if you do consider the richness factor what does that have to do with factories and schematics? A rich player on the ground can afford that uber sliced krayt weapon, while a poor player would have to settle for less. Should we hand everyone a nerf bat for 1credit that does 1-1 damage just to balance and equal everything out? I didn't think so either
There is just no way I can see this design decision as being good for the game. Adding more randomness than needed into a highly complicated crafting profession is a bad thing. Bad for the shipwrights and bad for the customers.
Thanks for posting
Again how is it complicated? You don't have to keep track of any sub-components, you just pick an item, plug the resources in, experiment, boom done! And they have setup the linearity of everything so easy for us.(i.e.) Each component has 5 levels, the higher you go the more powerful but heavier and energy draining they get. The optional sub-components can only go into components of the same level.
Once we figurewhat areas need to be experimented on, and which are a waste, things will become even easier.
Message Edited by Rolassk on 10-30-2004 01:58 AM
Another bonus is that it decreases one SWs ability stock all components all the time. This allows for more niche marketing -- Johnny's Engines, Akbar's Boosters and Drives, ect. It's similar to some Architects who only build furniture. But with SW, this specialization will be enhanced with the absence of factories.
I think we just need to wait a few weeks until the market levels out a bit.
Rolassk wrote:
pervel wrote:
It has got nothing at all to do with how fast or how slow you can craft by hand. It has got nothing to do with how much money shipwrights can make or if a single shipwright can dominate the market. Since you haven't looked beyond what you apparently thinkare the arguments for factories, allow me to make it easy for you and repost my arguments from another thread:
Have you read the posts supporting factories in this very thread, most including the original's posters are based on "I don'thave enough time make everything by hand, therefore I want full factory support". Things were easy and clear thanks, until of course you responded to my post withirrelevancy. I don't recall saying anything about money or shipwright market domination /scratchhead. What I have written is the general argument for factories in this thread (it's why I responded in THIS THREAD), I apologize for not knowing every single argument for pro-factory support in all the threads ever made on the issue.
Right! I am also a bit annoyed with seeing some people talking about how long time it takes to hand craft. I do believe, however, that if you read the numerous posts and threads about this issue, that this is not the main argument that we are making.
Crafting in SWG is designed around a degree of randomness. You make several attempts (aka. prototyping) at crafting an item until you get only "Great Succeses" during experimentation. This causes you to lose resources because your failed prototypes will generally be of no interest to customers due to their poor stats. This is why we can make schematics once we reach the required result. We can then put those schematics into factories to produce identical items without the risks of losing more resources. This is all well and balanced today. Experimentation, prototyping,lost resources, schematics, and factories all go hand in hand to make this balance.
Now SOE has suddenly chosen to remove an important part of this balance: schematics and factories. That means we are now left with experimentation, prototyping,and lost resources. Considering that shipwright is now the most resource intensive crafting profession, they have created a huge problem with the randomness in crafting. Every ship and ship component is now a prototype.
You are right, it provides a challenge to ALL of us shipwrights. Instead of what has happened with the ground crafting professions. A few earlycrafters from each profession have stockpiles of uber resources, and thus can make the best schematicuntil the next best resources comes along (if by chance they do run out of an uber resource, they have made so many creditsby this point, that they can outbuy anyone else for the next best resource they need). Don't deny it, this has happened to every server. It's an equal playing field for all current master shipwrights, and all future master shipwrights to come. Not everything will always be crafted uber (great/amazing success) all the time. Then again, +44station, +14.97 tool, research player city, bespin port = a slim chance of gettingless thengreat successes anyway. Even in beta with a +10 station and +10 tool, I was probably getting 90% great success at Master SW.
More randomness does NOT create challenges. It creates only frustration. More randomness is not good for the game in general. It is a poor excuse for making a challenging system.
And yes, I do deny the "flooding argument" that so many people use. I don't know about every crafting profession on every server. But I have seen very few problems like this in practice. I am currently a weaponsmith with a fine little business. I craft weapons that are just as good as any other weaponsmith. I don't flood the market and I have no trouble making a business. Moreover, the huge amounts of resources needed for ships will make it virtually impossible todominate the market for any single shipwright. The resources shift all the time and the old ones are replaced by new and better ones. This is what enables new crafters to enter the market. It does take some time for new crafters but it is certainly possible.
As for how random crafting actually is. Well, I don't have the numbers (does anybody?). But just one "good success" during experimentation can ruin the product entirely. Most of us know that the quality of crafting tools and stations have no effect at all. Bespin Port does increase your chances. But using that all the time will slow down your crafting to 1 item per 30 minutes or something like that.
One of the practical implications of thisis that ships will cost a lot more. Shipwrights need to take lost resources into account a lot more than other crafting professions. It also means that the customers will not know what they are buying in advance. If they are rich, they will agree to pay for all the lost resources until the shipwright finally produces a good prototype. If they are not rich, they will have to settle for poor prototypes that might not even fit into their ship because of too high mass or too high energy usage.
How does the customer not know whathe/sheis buying? If they have a capacitor with X stats on it and paid Y amount for it, and they go to another vendor and see a capacitor that has better Xat the same price, then they know it's a good purchase. And have you ever heard of just being honest with your customers? "Sorry my hitpoint experimentation didn't turn out so well, I'll charge you a reduced price". Whether players are rich or not is also irrelevant, since this is a twitch based system. An expert at flight sims in a Y-Wing could take out a poor flight sim in an A-Wing any day. Even if you do consider the richness factor what does that have to do with factories and schematics? A rich player on the ground can afford that uber sliced krayt weapon, while a poor player would have to settle for less. Should we hand everyone a nerf bat for 1credit that does 1-1 damage just to balance and equal everything out? I didn't think so either
I should have been more clear on what I mean here. I believe that ship vendors will in general be rather empty because of this design decision - except perhaps for the low-tier components. For higher tier components I am pretty sure that shipwrights will only craft components on an order-by-order basis. The problem is that the shipwright cannot help the customer very much by putting together a ship simply because neither he or the customer will know in advance what the stats will be. The richness factor comes in partly because ships will cost a lot more when they are hand-crafted, partly because you need to take failed prototypes into account.
There is just no way I can see this design decision as being good for the game. Adding more randomness than needed into a highly complicated crafting profession is a bad thing. Bad for the shipwrights and bad for the customers.
Again how is it complicated? You don't have to keep track of any sub-components, you just pick an item, plug the resources in, experiment, boom done! And they have setup the linearity of everything so easy for us.(i.e.) Each component has 5 levels, the higher you go the more powerful but heavier and energy draining they get. The optional sub-components can only go into components of the same level.
Once we figurewhat areas need to be experimented on, and which are a waste, things will become even easier.
It is an extremely complicated profession considering the multitude of stats and components. Putting together a ship with components that have both good efficiency stats (speed, damage, armor hitpoints, etc.) and don't have too high mass and energy usage is certainly not easy. I am not complaining about this at all. That is a nice challenge. But if the customer cannot go around and browse the stats on different vendors and has to rely on luck in crafting at his shipwright of choice, then he will basically shop in blindness. I am not looking forward to crafting several components for a customer using several 100k of resources just to have the customer find out that he cannot fit it into his ship because of too high mass.
Again this is the randomness argument. Randomness does not go well with a highly complicated profession. Like I explained earlier, the devs have removed an important part from a balanced system and have not replaced this by anything else. That is my main problem with this design decision. In fact, if they had removed all randomness in crafting too, then I would not be against this I think.
Thanks for taking the time to read and comment on my arguments.
-Redux- wrote:
One thing that is glossed over a lot is that this is about customization for the customer. Pilots will have different preferences when it comes to ships, weapons, shields, engines, boosters, etc. The beauty of the shipwright craft is that there is so much experimentation. We can fit our customers preferences much better and can do it rather quickly. It only takes about two minutes to produce a component. The design isn't about now when everyone is desperately buying everything in sight. It is about later when people discover what configuration suits their piloting style. So they can come to a shipwright and say "Yeah, I need a booster with the most acceleration I can get so I can close on my targets fast." And the shipwright can produce it quickly. The plus for the shipwright is we will only have to stock a few chassis and vanilla components on the vendor for people that haven't decided to customize yet. Shipwright will become a primarily special order business. You won't have a 1000 max acceleration boosters sitting on your vendor and in your warehouse hoping to sell them when burn duration becomes the flavor of the day.
It might suprise you, but I actually agree with the beauty of customisation being possible. Even if they add proper factory support, there will be a need for customized components. Actually I believe shipwright can easily become the most fun crafting profession because there will be a good market for both hand-crafted, custom-made components AND for factory-made "standard" components. This is one of the reasons I simply don't understand whey people think they need to prevent the use of factories.
Why do those whoprefer to custom craft all the time want to push that playing style down on all of us? Some shipwrights could be mainly in the business of factory-made components. Some could be mainly in the business of custom-made components. And yet some (probably most) could do a bit of both. There will be customers for all of the above. Not every pilot wants to take the time out to understand and tune every single detail of components. Iinstead they want to rely on the expertise of shipwrights making "standard" components that they can just buy off of a vendor after looking at the stats that they understand.
Rugburn wrote:
Because of limited factory support, I've had to become a closet Shipwright.. I only make parts for my guildmates, thats it. I think its plain stupid to not let us use a factory to make parts like engines and weapons.
Same with me. I never wear my title. I haven't even had a chance to setup a vendor. I'm just supplying the pilots in my guild. I've only had a chance to fly in space 2 times so far.
I'm still on the fence about this. If comps could be made in factories, we could service a lot more customers. However, I think that after the initial wave of pilots get past the first few tiers, we will see things settle down a little. It will be interesteding to wait and see. Were going to be without factory support for a while. Might as well get used to it.
Message Edited by rexan on 10-29-2004 12:08 PM
Even with factory support shipwright is very different than other crafting professions. The huge amount of resources and the multitude of components and stats that can be combined make it different. This will no doubt create a need for custom-made components. That is why I simply don't understand the fear of factories. It is not I that am trying to push a certain playing style down on others.
If people want to buy custom-made components, why should the fact that other shipwrights use factories take any business away from you? Inevery crafting profession you have the option of not using factories. Why don't you do that? Because there is no market for them? Well, then either create your own market or live with the fact that there is none. Not all of your customers are into the socializing or even role-playing part of buying crafted stuff. I do not think it is a good idea to force a certain playing style onto them either.
Anotherreason that I am rather agitated about this is that I fear this might be only the first step in changing ALL crafting professions. I have a bad feeling that the devs are thinking about taking factories away from many other crafted items in the game.
I actually see this design decision as a NERF even though that might sound strange since shipwright is a new profession. It is a nerf because they are taking something away from us without replacing it with anything to balance it. This is unfortunately the trend in many MMORPGs. If they feel something is unbalanced in the game, they they should instead use some imagination and add new features to the game. For instance, they could instead add some kind of bonus to hand-crafting. This kind of change will be seen as far more acceptable than the traditional nerfs - even if the end results are the same.
pervel wrote:
I actually see this design decision as a NERF even though that might sound strange since shipwright is a new profession. It is a nerf because they are taking something away from us without replacing it with anything to balance it. This is unfortunately the trend in many MMORPGs. If they feel something is unbalanced in the game, they they should instead use some imagination and add new features to the game. For instance, they could instead add some kind of bonus to hand-crafting. This kind of change will be seen as far more acceptable than the traditional nerfs - even if the end results are the same.
This has just gotten silly and my patientience has now expired, so pardon my directness, but....
What exactly was "taken away"? There was nothing taken away. You can't take away what was never there to begin with.
You are making the assumption that the devs owe shipwrights factories because every other profession has factories. That is notvalid logic, and you should know what assuming does.
As for a bonus to handcrafting, have you seen any other profession with as many experimentation options? What about reverse engineering? Weaponsmiths can't take a looted Nightsister Lance and RE it? What about the infinite variety of configuration options in the different level of components? There are many special things about shipwrights, but too many people are spending too much time crying about not having factories rather than discovering the real beauty of the profession. It is really quite sad and pathetic. Frankly I am sick of hearing it.
And hopefully the devs don't really care about the whining. If you want to nerf shipwright, making shipwright fully factory compatible would be the first step.
Personally, I think the devs deserve kudos for actually making crafters work at their craft rather than making one good one and then dumping it in a factory for 1000 duplicates.
As far as I am concerned, I have read all the arguments and whining, and thus far have seen no real justification for factories for shipwright. It seems to boil down to this argument "I can't make money fast enough." Boo-hoo. I can make a million credits a day handcrafting everything in a few hours, and my prices are very reasonable, so I know that the "I can't make money fast enough" argument is complete crap too.
It really boils down to the fact the factory whiners are lazy. If you are lazy, don't be a shipwright. Plain and simple. Don't whine. Don't cry. Don't grump. Just go do something else so I don't have to listen to you anymore.