Shipwright Archive
Thread: JTL Decay is not fun, here's why, proposed solution
Arryth wrote:
... Assuming im smart with it, I can make a suit of armor last easily a month or more... a frequent space pvper could easily have a ship ruined in a single day...
I've flown most of the weekend just past, and died twice, resulting in minimal decay to my rather uber A wing
Arryth wrote:
....Decay was removed.. and its not comeing back.
When was decay removed, apart from in deep space?
Message Edited by Chiwawa on 01-11-2005 06:30 PM
Lowering the resource requirements on parts may indeed help, and I think I might be persuaded to endorse that particular idea, so long as I can get some credits/resources back for my current stock. There is a school of thought amongst shipwrights that lowering the resource cost
1) Is not fair on those of us that paid the 6.5 odd million credits to become MSW
2) Will encourage dabllers into the market, which will dilute the quality of crafted items (I for one don't see an issue with this)
3) Resource costs will go up anyway, as most players that make the real money (miners) will just raise prices to compensate for lowered demand
Thats not to say it is'nt a good idea though
The main issue here however is decay, and while the rate may need adjustment, I do not think it should be removed completly. Selfish reasons really like not wanting to be a missile vendor in a few months, but balance at the end of the day, because stuff does decay on the ground and so it should in space (at the same level)
Eaca wrote:
Would you like this kind of decay on vehicles? What if every time you repaired your swoop or AV-21 you lost 10% of the condition on it, until the cost of calling, or the first tick of damage while riding, blew it up?
If vehicles where used in combat them yes I would be happy to take 10% decay on a full repair, as it is now you live with the fact that if a vehicle gets disabled its gone forever. So 10% decay would be much better in that respect. Either way I like the fact that parts decay it means I can;t just run head long into a fight I can not handle without due care and respect, soemthig we have come to not worry about in the ground game.
anyways as I said I like the decay, you do not I can see your reasons but I just can not agree with them
Eaca wrote:
Bastilaa wrote:
EdOWar wrote:It sounds like the real issue isn't decay, but space PvP. It sounds like it's way too easy to die in space PvP (which I haven't done yet). With some tweaking of the space PvP combat system, decay might become less of an issue.From my own experiance in space PvE, decay is practically a non-issue. I'm 3/3/2/2, soloed all my missions so far, and I've only had to bail out three times (last time was on my third tier III mission, which I haven't tried to repeat yet)--the first two times I died was in my starter ship. It seems to me that a master pilot with a good ship will virtually never experience decay from PvE, excepting perhaps armor. That's a lot better than the ground game, where costs are higher and decay occurs no matter how quickly/efficiently you run ground missions. And a higher level pilot can farm higher tier ships, getting higher average level loot, which can be sold for more money.Maybe in terms of absolute numbers the ground game is a bit more profitable, but earning money in space isn't too bad either.Slim Vargo, CorbantisDieing as a Master in a loaded ship only happens when I'm foolish, Since making Master for the 4th time I have died twice, once soloing the ISD (I thought I had taken out all 99 guns but missed 1) and the other time was soloing the Corvette - the phone rang in the middle of it and before I knew it I was staring down the barrels of 7 Turrets. Apart from that I have not died since making master for the 4th time, and any previous deaths on previous masters where in PvP zones in Deepspace.
The whole decay thing is not as bad as people thing it is. The one thing that makes it bad is the fact that the Armor HP on Armor decay, but going back to previous post about being 1 shotted in PvP because your engines armor decayed is a mute point, no matter if you have 700 or 10 Armor on it 1 shot is from a RE'd Borstel Disruptor is going to wipe it out.
Heck one shot from my RE'd lvl 10 Blaster with .8vs shields/armor with WO 3 is going to do 4500 (3393 after 25% reduction) Damage every .380 seconds so even with those nice RE'd 2554 HP shields and 2500 HP Brand new Armor 2 shots and your dead simple as that, having 700 or 10 armor on my components makes zero difference its disabled the moment my second shot lands, the third shot is either the rest of your components or your chassis and boom your dead.
The issue is not the decay in general (although Armor decay on Armor is borked) it's the amount of damage we can do in PvP. Reduce PvP damage and remove the Armor decay on Armor to make it HP decay and I think space decay would not look half as bad as people think it is
One shot from a borstel, assuming shields and main armor are still intact, will 85% of the time NOT wipe out a component in good shape with 600+ armor. As I said before WO3 is bugged, needs to be fixed. Reducing PvP damage won't reduce decay in any noticable way, making the fights last 3 or 4 shots, and you still have the problem of your ship becoming weaker each death, something you don't have on the ground. Honestly with 2 good pilots space damage isn't that bad. It's not like the ground where you can spam an attack and have it hit relatively frequently. I've had fights with other good pilots where we death danced for a good 20-30 seconds, breaking away and re-engaging as neither of us could get the upper hand on each other. It took that long for one of us to get in ONE hit. If it was 4 hit kills, then each hit wouldn't even fully penetrate the shields, and with 20-30 seconds before the next hit, with CtSS3, we could both have full shields by the next hit, putting us both back to square one. With some of the crazy spinning and sliding moves that PC's can pull off that the NPC AI can't/won't, reduced damage PvP would end up being neverending.Anyway, fixing WO3 and making a reasonable decay system, one that didn't make you 10% weaker with each death, would be more than enough to make space PvP 2-3 hit instead of 1-2. Any more hits than that and we'll never kill each other.As far as what a 4 hit PvP system would do for bad vs bad, they would still run headlong into each other, guns blazing, it would still come down to whoever had the strongest shields/guns, and it would still only last a second since you can shoot about 6-7 shots a second anyway. Good vs bad would still have the bad rushing the good, good swooping around behind them, and unloading into thier rear shields, still lasting all of a second, cause like I said, takes all of .7 seconds to shoot 4 shots. Only thing 4 hit kills would do is make good vs good never end.Message Edited by Eaca on 01-11-2005 01:28 PM
Sorry but I have never had a space fight last longer than 5 seconds, and yes, I have a 16:1 kill ratio. I want fights to last longer for 2 reasons.
1) So that the opponent has a fair chance of return fire
2) So I can play with them, like a cat does with a mouse
Message Edited by Chiwawa on 01-11-2005 11:23 PM
Bacacuba wrote:Decay as it stands needs to be adjusted. For the benifit of both groups. As it stands now Pilots don't want to replace chassis every 7-10 deaths, and I as a shipwright want to sell a new engine or reactor once in a blue moon too. I can see when spending 150k to over a million credits on a chassis you want it to last a while. That is completely understandable. But you have to understand that there has to be risk when flying in space, be it PvE or PvP. And that risk should always have a decay related element. As it stands now there really is no reason to replace anything short of armor / shields. I sell mostly consumables and a few armor plates now and then. Everyone has their engines, reactors and such that they need and they never die completely through decay. So they just keep using them. And the shipwright never gets any new buisness.Ideally what needs to happen is that decay needs to be slowed down a bit, but when an item gets to a low point, it stops working. The armor and weapons you use on the ground die if you keep using them indefinately. In space that doesn't typically happen (there are situations where you could completely kill a component, but not as you would armor/weapons on the ground). I'm not saying we need use based decay for components, but something that gives a finite life span is needed.
That is not "good for the benifit of both groups" as you state.. Fact: It hurts pilots.. period.. In no way does it help us.. It just helps the shipwrights sell us more stuff. I like the stuff I worked hard to get now thank you vary much.
Chiwawa wrote:
Arryth wrote:
... Assuming im smart with it, I can make a suit of armor last easily a month or more... a frequent space pvper could easily have a ship ruined in a single day...
I've flown most of the weekend just past, and died twice, resulting in minimal decay to my rather uber A wing
Arryth wrote:
....Decay was removed.. and its not comeing back.
When was decay removed, apart from in deep space?Message Edited by Chiwawa on 01-11-2005 06:30 PM
Im refering to pvp decay.. its gone and not comeing back. The old pvp decay system it was common to see a ship ruined in a single day of pvp.
EdOWar wrote:
It sounds like the real issue isn't decay, but space PvP. It sounds like it's way too easy to die in space PvP (which I haven't done yet). With some tweakingof thespace PvP combat system, decay might become less of an issue.
From my own experiance in space PvE, decay is practically a non-issue. I'm 3/3/2/2, soloed all my missions so far, and I've only had to bail out three times (last time was on my third tier III mission, which I haven't tried to repeat yet)--the first two times I died was in my starter ship. It seems to me that a master pilot with a good ship will virtually never experience decay from PvE, excepting perhaps armor. That's a lot better than the ground game, where costs are higherand decay occurs no matter how quickly/efficiently you run ground missions. And a higher level pilot can farm higher tier ships, getting higher average level loot, which can be sold for more money.
Maybe in terms of absolute numbers the ground game is a bit more profitable, but earning money in space isn't too bad either.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Dieing as a Master in a loaded ship only happens when I'm foolish, Since making Master for the 4th time I have died twice, once soloing the ISD (I thought I had taken out all 99 guns but missed 1) and the other time was soloing the Corvette - the phone rang in the middle of it and before I knew it I was staring down the barrels of 7 Turrets. Apart from that I have not died since making master for the 4th time, and any previous deaths on previous masters where in PvP zones in Deepspace.
The whole decay thing is not as bad as people thing it is. The one thing that makes it bad is the fact that the Armor HP on Armor decay, but going back to previous post about being 1 shotted in PvP because your engines armor decayed is a mute point, no matter if you have 700 or 10 Armor on it 1 shot is from a RE'd Borstel Disruptor is going to wipe it out.
Heck one shot from my RE'd lvl 10 Blaster with .8vs shields/armor with WO 3 is going to do 4500 (3393 after 25% reduction) Damage every .380 seconds so even with those nice RE'd 2554 HP shields and 2500 HP Brand new Armor 2 shots and your dead simple as that, having 700 or 10 armor on my components makes zero difference its disabled the moment my second shot lands, the third shot is either the rest of your components or your chassis and boom your dead.
The issue is not the decay in general (although Armor decay on Armor is borked) it's the amount of damage we can do in PvP. Reduce PvP damage and remove the Armor decay on Armor to make it HP decay and I think space decay would not look half as bad as people think it is
Bastilaa wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
It sounds like the real issue isn't decay, but space PvP. It sounds like it's way too easy to die in space PvP (which I haven't done yet). With some tweakingof thespace PvP combat system, decay might become less of an issue.
From my own experiance in space PvE, decay is practically a non-issue. I'm 3/3/2/2, soloed all my missions so far, and I've only had to bail out three times (last time was on my third tier III mission, which I haven't tried to repeat yet)--the first two times I died was in my starter ship. It seems to me that a master pilot with a good ship will virtually never experience decay from PvE, excepting perhaps armor. That's a lot better than the ground game, where costs are higherand decay occurs no matter how quickly/efficiently you run ground missions. And a higher level pilot can farm higher tier ships, getting higher average level loot, which can be sold for more money.
Maybe in terms of absolute numbers the ground game is a bit more profitable, but earning money in space isn't too bad either.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Dieing as a Master in a loaded ship only happens when I'm foolish, Since making Master for the 4th time I have died twice, once soloing the ISD (I thought I had taken out all 99 guns but missed 1) and the other time was soloing the Corvette - the phone rang in the middle of it and before I knew it I was staring down the barrels of 7 Turrets. Apart from that I have not died since making master for the 4th time, and any previous deaths on previous masters where in PvP zones in Deepspace.
The whole decay thing is not as bad as people thing it is. The one thing that makes it bad is the fact that the Armor HP on Armor decay, but going back to previous post about being 1 shotted in PvP because your engines armor decayed is a mute point, no matter if you have 700 or 10 Armor on it 1 shot is from a RE'd Borstel Disruptor is going to wipe it out.
Heck one shot from my RE'd lvl 10 Blaster with .8vs shields/armor with WO 3 is going to do 4500 (3393 after 25% reduction) Damage every .380 seconds so even with those nice RE'd 2554 HP shields and 2500 HP Brand new Armor 2 shots and your dead simple as that, having 700 or 10 armor on my components makes zero difference its disabled the moment my second shot lands, the third shot is either the rest of your components or your chassis and boom your dead.
The issue is not the decay in general (although Armor decay on Armor is borked) it's the amount of damage we can do in PvP. Reduce PvP damage and remove the Armor decay on Armor to make it HP decay and I think space decay would not look half as bad as people think it is
Message Edited by Eaca on 01-11-2005 01:28 PM
Where it does bother me is in PVP. I think PVP damage is closer to where it should be than most people think--reducing it 33-50% would be enough--but the speed at which you die makes it very easy to lose an awful lot of your components' HP in a hurry. I'd like to see PVP decay either reduced to 2-5% or eliminated entirely; right now it's just a big disincentive to ever PVP, which can be incredibly fun, especially if it's in a group. Of course, the problem with group PVP, particularly the organized kind, is you can die plenty of times in one confrontation.. and what that means to me is I either quit after one or two deaths, use stuff I build myself, or just don't PVP. None of which is a very fun solution.
Claims that the elimination of PVP decay would screw over shipwrights fail to consider a few things, I think. One: that not many people do much PVPing in the first place, both because of instadeaths and the harsh penalty for dying, so we're not getting much business from this kind of decay anyway. Two: if more people were PVPing, there would be a greater demand for chaff and missiles, as a lot of those get used in heavier confrontations, and it's possible the serious PVPers will create a better marker for high-end components, especially nice RE'd ones, and custom orders to squeeze more stuff into the tiny ships that make for the best PVPers. Three: if more people are flying--and a great PVP system will draw more people into space, particularly the kind that have money to spend on good stuff--we're going to see more business in general. Imagine if people were excited enough about JTL to talk their friends into coming into space and go fight it out--think that would send any more traffic our way?
It's impossible to quantify whether we'd end up with less or more money in our pockets (for those who are more concerned about that than a robust space PVP system), but I think the chances of us all suddenly going bankrupt are extremely low and would at least be moderated by those three things. There's also the possibility we'd actually end up with more money. If that were the case, and meanwhile pilots are up there having more fun, I can't picture a better outcome.